I believe nobody wants to kill that soldier, not even the 4 instructors in question. You think they like going thru all this fanfare with their careers on the line and blood on their hands? Its a case of getting carried away, they got carried away , they bare the consequences. But what i meant was that since the course exists, how do we keep track of the situation and prevent the same thing from happening again. Its easy to say dun do it when something happens, benefit of hindsight. Where were u before the poor boy died?Originally posted by NathanG5:some people here wana tok rational here?
ok..lets tok abt it...
let me ask u guys a question..do u guys seriously think that u are able to train to endure torture???
the existing of CST is only to simulate wat kind of torture exist..prepare the soldier for it mentally..NOT KILL THEM!!!
how not to go to too far? simple..dun do it...common sense rite?
u prefer a living soldier or a dead one?
well..its your own believe..aint it obvious?Originally posted by Goondu74:I believe nobody wants to kill that soldier, not even the 4 instructors in question. You think they like going thru all this fanfare with their careers on the line and blood on their hands? Its a case of getting carried away, they got carried away , they bare the consequences. But what i meant was that since the course exists, how do we keep track of the situation and prevent the same thing from happening again. Its easy to say dun do it when something happens, benefit of hindsight. Where were u before the poor boy died?
Originally posted by Flashgalaxy:Did you guys watch the news the last few days on the cout hearing for the commando dunking incident? Its very sad man how those people could have done that... i hope there will be some justice.
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2 years? ONLY?! they oughta been charged with manslaughter. and im being fair by not saying they oughta been charged with murder.Originally posted by Moxie:I speculate, as with the Nicholl Highway collapse, the litigation process will blunt out the emotional distress over time. Wish I could attend the trial - I took leave for Abbas Saad's in the mid-90's (out of curiosity). The next best thing would be following the daily revelations via the different newspapers, which can be cumbersome since they don't always report every detail.
Guys, I appreciate the postings but please don't anyhow hantum - okay? Read closely what the papers reported before commenting, since they already contain plenty of "WTF?" controversial statements by themselves. Like the COI admission that unauthorized dunkings had taken place since '98, became unwritten SOP since Y2K, then actually intensified from placing trainees' heads under running tap water to submerging them in a shallowed-filled washing bay to dunking in a one-metre tub to, in Hu's case, "stopping him from surfacing to breathe" (Today tabloid).
To correct a further misposting, the specific charges are "causing death by a rash act" (Hu Enhuai) & "causing grevious hurt by a rash act that endangered a life" (Ho Wan Huo).
It's not murder, manslaughter or culpable homicide.
FYI The Singapore Statutes Online lists the following punishments for the said offences (the "grevious hurt" one is my attempt at approximation; there's a bundle of them):
"Causing death by rash or negligent act.
304A. Whoever causes the death of any person by doing any rash or negligent act not amounting to culpable homicide, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years, or with fine, or with both."
"Causing grievous hurt by an act which endangers life or the personal safety of others.
338. Whoever causes grievous hurt to any person by doing any act so rashly or negligently as to endanger human life or the personal safety of others, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years, or with fine which may extend to $1,000, or with both."
http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/non_version/cgi-bin/cgi_getdata.pl?&actno=1872-REVED-224&date=latest&method=part&segid=888373002-001939#888373002-002165
what the .... how are they suppose to do that?Originally posted by gnoik:I stumbled upon this page regarding maltreatment in the cdo.Happened years back...very jia lart.Wonder is it part of their training?
http://www.singapore-window.org/sw99/90210ben.htm
Any1 free to gif comments?
I believe nobody wants to kill that soldier, not even the 4 instructors in question.That's why they're charged as "causing death/grievous hurt with a rash act", as opposed to something more severe.
my friend, you speak like a man who has never lost a loved one, "THE TRAINEE'S DEATH HAS A LARGER IMPACT ON HIS FAMILY IN THE SHORT TERM BUT THEY WILL BE ABLE TO MOVE ON"???Originally posted by mfscrewu:What should not have happened as already did. For those people who are advocating a more drastic punishment for the accused, isn't this going to put you in the same shoes as them. For the accused, their career is already gone, their family are suffering (even though they played no part) and they are facing a possible jail sentence. Even if all these may seem minor as compared to the death of the trainee, these instructors are forever haunted by their action.
Yes, the trainee's death has a larger impact on his family in the short term, but at least they will be able to move on. But, what about the accused? They have to carry on living their natural span of life and that could be a long way to go. Let go of the hate and eventually, time will heal all wounds
with regards to WO Bala, I've heard from many that he is professional. Indeed, I believe he was dragged down into this mire by those unprofessional officers. In this case, it is very clear cut who are the main culprits at hand. I do pity WO Bala for being dragged into this mess as a scapegoat.Originally posted by mfscrewu:With the commencement of the trial for the death of the CST trainee, perhaps it is time for the legal system to set its own course and ensure that a fair trial be conducted. For all who are emotionally charged up with this event, it is also a good time to cool down.
What should not have happened as already did. For those people who are advocating a more drastic punishment for the accused, isn't this going to put you in the same shoes as them. For the accused, their career is already gone, their family are suffering (even though they played no part) and they are facing a possible jail sentence. Even if all these may seem minor as compared to the death of the trainee, these instructors are forever haunted by their action.
Yes, the trainee's death has a larger impact on his family in the short term, but at least they will be able to move on. But, what about the accused? They have to carry on living their natural span of life and that could be a long way to go. Let go of the hate and eventually, time will heal all wounds.
A death in the service has occurred, it is more constructive (instead of harpering on what could have been done to prevent the incident) to study it and ensure that something like that does not happen again while at the same time not compromising on the training standards.
There is an old chinese proverb: yuan1 yuan1 xiang2 bao4, he2 shi2 liao2 (Translate to: Animosity has no end)
On a personal note, I have been a CST trainee under WO Balakrishnan, and I know his conduct as an instructor has always been very professional and fair person. It saddens me that his career might ended in this dishonourable way.
When did i ever said we are able to train to endure torture? and there IS blood on their hands! At no point did i said no blood.Originally posted by NathanG5:well..its your own believe..aint it obvious?
so i guess u know all 4 of them personally that there is no blood on their hand??
dude compare your present n the post before...dun give me shlt on wat u meant or dun mean..
they got carried away..BECOS THEY WERE FARKING DRINKING!!!!!
ARE THEY SUPPOSE TO BE DRINKING BEER????
U TELL ME!!!
WHERE IM I?? I WISH I WAS THERE TO KICK THE HELL OUT OF 4 OF THEM!!!
I WISH I WAS THERE TO STOP IT!!!
phew..sorry abt that bro..but read my post n your again..tell me which one make more sense..
we are able to train to endure torture?
HA! if its as cock up n screwed up as it is, then is its vitality for real? or is it MERELY A GODAMN ILLUSION? n u must have your head in the clouds if u think we're anything but dead if anyone around us decides to invade. Go se your alarm clock or something. U need to wake up.Originally posted by vroomvroom:No matter how cock and screw up SAF is, there is no denying tt it is a vital organisation to the well-being of our country.
For your info, I have lost someone whom I love and respect a lot not to an incident like this but to disease. But I don't go around in a daze and tell myself that everything in life is over. I picked myself up and moved on with life. Yes, memories of him does come back to me, but over the years, the pain has lessen very much. Hence your first assumption is wrong.Originally posted by hermez:my friend, you speak like a man who has never lost a loved one, "THE TRAINEE'S DEATH HAS A LARGER IMPACT ON HIS FAMILY IN THE SHORT TERM BUT THEY WILL BE ABLE TO MOVE ON"???
For your next assumption, in no circumtances did I say I was a commando. Again you assume based on what I write. Didn't you learn that assumption is the mother of all F.U.C.K ups. I did not post here to start an arguement. If you want to carry on to be offensive in your language, expect the same from me. Stupid, brainless thick-in-the-head ARSEHOLE! What I post here is merely my comment, at no point did I force anyone to agree with me. You have your bloody right to disagree, and so do I have my goddamn given right to put foward my comments.Originally posted by hermez:Have you COMPLETELY lost your mind, or has your (presumably) commando pride gotten to your head and hollowed it out finally?
In your arguement, you speculated or predicted that his father is unable to move on. Until some time after this incident has passed, this is something you will not be able to be certain of. In my point, it is based solely on my experience and conversations with help groups counsellor that majority of the population who have encountered death of their love ones are able to move on.Originally posted by hermez:Do you imagine that 20 years from now, Sgt Hu's father will have MOVED ON??? Do you think that, as he lies awake in bed, watching the ceiling, that he will FORGET that he had a son? In his old age, as he struggles to pay his medical bills with his dwindling cpf, do you think he will CONVENIENTLY NOT REMEMBER what happened to his 19 year old son? DO YOU THINK HIS GRIEF WILL BE SOMEHOW LESS THAN THAT OF THESE FOUR USELESS SODS WHO ARE CHARGED WITH NOTHING MORE THAN A "rash act endangering life not amounting to culpable homicide?"
How you feel about the accused is your own business, I have no intention to know.Originally posted by hermez:Yes, no doubt you've read moxie's message about the likely outcome of the punishment involved. Brilliant. 4 years, 38,000 singapore dollars and a career gone down the drain. Oh how sad. I really do FEEL for these people.
Life is full of unpredictable, be it an act of nature or human intervention. The constructive way is to review the cause of death and reduce the possibility of it happening.Originally posted by hermez:As i walk the hospital wards everyday, watching my friends spend long nights struggling to save the life of a 70 year old ah mah, with her teenage grandchildren standing by her bedside, watching and praying for her life, i will remember how the rash, no, VICIOUS acts commited by these 4 took the life, not of a seventy year old lady stricken with cancer and congestive cardiac failure, but that of a healthy 19 year old man, with all of life's love and potential gone in an instant.
Based on what you heard, you assume that you the whole of CDO and possibiliy of SAF is screw-up. So for example, if you are caught lying to your superior just this one time, can he brand you a habitual liar? In any organisation, there are bound to be bad hats. What is important is that bad hats like these are tracked down and be flushed out of the organisation ASAP. Too right you are, that you are unable to comment on WO Balakrishnan, you never trained under him, and you don't know him personally.Originally posted by hermez:I may not be able to personally comment on dear WO Bala's behaviour, not having known him personally, but i have heard enough of commando-guardsmen eminity, or DRUNK regulars, of abuse of SAF regulation and of intoxication with power to easily understand what happened, with or without a trial.
No, I am not interested to hear your b.i.t.c.hing. You can keep your bedtime stories for yourself.Originally posted by hermez:Abuse of SAF regulation? oh yes, the SAF HAS regualtions, i almost forgot. Let me tell you about SAF regulation. You know about that rule that about being charged 4 times before your S1 can throw you in DB? EVER HEARD THE STORY OF MY BN mate WHO WAS CHARGED FOUR TIMES IN A ROW so that they could throw him into DB immediately? Oh how about pec status? Pec E NSFs arent supposed to go ourfield are they? HOW ABOUT THE CLERK WHO WENT OUTFIELD MORE TIMES THAN I CAN COUNT? Oh wait, i'm a combat signaller (YES, ME) on permenant excuse for camoflage paint because i develop a dermatological allergic reaction to a preservative in the paint. I WONDER WHAT I WAS DOING WITH CAMO PAINT ON MY FACE DURING MY BN ATEC? Oh yes, SAF accounts. They DO HAVE financial accounting dont they? Does anyone want to take a closer look at recent ATEC s4 accounting? How about my friend the platoon clerk, who was shouted at and verbally abused EVERYDAY, FOR THE WHOLE DAY BY A MORE OFTEN THAN NOT DRUNK platoon warrant officer. What happened to him when he had a mental breakdown and hid BEHIND A DUSTBIN to get away from the WO? Why couldnt the MO even give him an MC on psychological grounds? Why did the MO have to PRETEND THAT HE HAD A RESPIRATORY PROBLEM to secure him a downgrade? [/quote]
Based on your accounts, why don't you seek redness through the necessary channels? If you have proof to substantiate against your claims, why did you not bring the matter up to the appropariate authority (be it MP, SIB etc)? It is because of incidents like these that are unreported that result in worsening of the situation, so in a way, you too have a hand in letting these bad hats get away with the offences they commit.
[quote]Originally posted by hermez:
Oh the list goes on. You want to hear it all one day? Drop me a mail. It might take you more than a day to read it though.
Do it to yourself, it is cheaper and safer.Originally posted by hermez:f***.
There is no 5-star or 4-star general in SAF. Again what you think is your right to do so.Originally posted by hermez:That's what i think of SAF regulation and law. it's not for grunts on the ground like the rest of us. It's reserved for that wonderful 5 star general and his son, sitting comfortably in his office to convince himself that there isnt any abuse going on right under his own nose. Or for the SAF WO who's recently killed someone to save his neck from hanging in the noose.
Are you sorry for the trainee's death or are you just trying to win some compassion for yourself? That's a point only you yourself know.Originally posted by hermez:For the rest of us, for sgt hu's family, there's "oh i'm so sorry we killed your son, maybe we'll let your next son become a clerk. Until then, oh dont worry about these chaps, you'll soon forget them. Bye bye, ta ta. Have a nice day"
I'm sorry. I really am. To all friends of the injured and deceased out there, i apologise if i've awoken feelings of sorrow. But there remains an attitude out there in the SAF that badly needs to be addressed.
This is your opinion and I have no right to comment.Originally posted by hermez:I entered the SAF full of hope, believing that i could contruibute to the defence of my country. On the day i ORDed, i understood finally, how absolutely wrong one can be.
dont waste my time fren..read your 1st post n tell me that..Originally posted by Goondu74:When did i ever said we are able to train to endure torture? and there IS blood on their hands! At no point did i said no blood.
not just his family. can u imagine the shock we(his friends) got? and how betrayed we felt? esp when we knew what exactly happened?Originally posted by Moxie:Guys - again - calm down.
On the issue of "moving on", IMO it's gonne be the SAF who'll unfortunately have the (institutional) capacity of doing that more. That's why I stated that I hope the whole tragedy will prompt it to profoundly rethink the attitude of its training, rather than just narrow down to the methods - which is what they're currently debating in court.
Believe me, the initial shock on the parents' side can never been forgotten. Imagine them doing their normal routine at home & then suddenly getting a call saying their son's been in a serious training accident (prior to discovering it's the result of a rogue act). It must've seemed even more improbable to the families since their sons are established soldiers: Sgt. Hu being a sniper & Capt. Ho a regular.
not just his family. can u imagine the shock we(his friends) got? and how betrayed we felt? esp when we knew what exactly happened?Oh yeah, momentially overlooked the fact that the whole thing happened while they were on course.
im glad there r ppl who still think like u do. unfortunately not everyone here seems to have that sort of humanity about them anymore.Originally posted by Moxie:Oh yeah, momentially overlooked the fact that the whole thing happened while they were on course.
In which case - with due respect to the Commando sense of fraternity - a training school could potentially "move on" quicker since, except for the cadre personnel, they wouldn't have the in-built comradarie which a combat outfit has.
[Request for any lurking fellow Guardsmen of Sgt. Hu: post something here on his death anniversary (if you guys haven't ORD'd) & let us know how much the SAF still remembers him by then.]
I can emphasize with what the friends/colleagues felt, since I myself got voluntarily treated for PTSD symptoms only during my 2nd academic year at NUS - way after I ORD'd.
The army never allowed us to grieve properly - the RSM even marched us around the parade square for 3 straight days, learning the "tonk-sang senja ta" funeral drills repeatedly - & I suppose thereafter each of us found our own clutch in our own ways. My battery ended up infamous for 100% book-outs, 2359-ish "bulk" book-ins, plus countless late nights (many surviving on 3-4 hours' sleep, mahjong-gambling in the bunks or talking-cock sessions out in the field).
In some sense it f^cked me up for the rest of my 20something years too. Advice: Go for counseling sessions, bro - if only to verbally open up your frustrations. Don't cramp it up all inside or wish it away.
That said, I won't take away the fact that it's the family who suffers the ultimate heartbreaker - imagine the initial panic/confusion, the wholly-unnatural reality of parents having to bury their children ... ~shakes head~
There is no need to undermine other people's humanity. If you believe you have yours, keep it to yourself, and let them keep theirs.Originally posted by HENG@:im glad there r ppl who still think like u do. unfortunately not everyone here seems to have that sort of humanity about them anymore.