Witness relates dunking death of soldier

• kwlee

  1 Oct 04, 22:26

  Wow, this is the 100th reply of the thread le... hmm, i posted updates on the new on my blog @ http://shifty.tanfwc.net if u want can visit it .
• NathanG5

  1 Oct 04, 22:26

  Witnesses say commando trainees were terrified during dunking exercise
  By Dominique Loh, Channel NewsAsia
  
  SINGAPORE : Captain Huo Wan Ho, who was nearly drowned by the commando trainers during the ill-fated Combat Survival Course, was screaming in fear and gasping for air as he was being dunked.
  
  Third Sergeant Ong Chin Wei who was helping with the course said this on day 7 of the trial of four commando trainers.
  
  The four are accused of nearly drowning the captain and causing the death of another trainee, Second Sergeant Hu Enhuai.
  
  Sergeant Ong was the enemy in the survival course and Captain Ho Wan Huo was his prisoner of war.
  
  The trainees were made to line up to wait their turn for the water treatment.
  
  And Sergeant Ong says the commando instructors picked Captain Ho from the back of the line and brought him to the front.
  
  The sergeant's task was to escort Captain Ho to the water tank to be interrogated by the commandos.
  
  Third Sergeant Ong Chin Wei is the second witness to testify what he saw during the water treatment phase of the course.
  
  He had only seen the water treatment on Captain Ho.
  
  He said what he saw had frightened him.
  
  He had also demonstrated in court using a dummy and a water tub how Captain Ho was immersed during the water treatment.
  
  The sergeant testified that Captain Ho was blindfolded, his hands tied behind his back - and was then dunked 6 times.
  
  The commando instructors, he said, seemed very enthusiastic.
  
  In stark contrast Captain Ho, he said was very frightened and was screaming and gasping for air.
  
  The sergeant, who is a former classmate of Hu En Huai - the trainee who died - however did not see the commandos dunk Hu.
  
  The court also heard that this is not the first dunking death in the military - there was another case back in 1976. - CNA
  
  
• HENG@

  2 Oct 04, 01:52

  Ong Chin Wei??? he was there too?
• NathanG5

  2 Oct 04, 02:12

  Originally posted by HENG@:

  Ong Chin Wei??? he was there too?

  u noe him?
• LoVeMeLoVeMenOt

  5 Oct 04, 01:16

  Dunking survivors testify in trial of commandos
  
  SINGAPORE: Captain Ho Wan Huo has testified in the trial of the four commandos accused of nearly drowning the captain and causing the death of another trainee, Second Sergeant Hu Enhuai, during a combat survival course.
  On day 8 of the trial, the court also heard dramatic accounts from three other trainees about what the commando trainers did to them.
  
  Captain Ho said he was dunked more than six times in the water tub by the commando trainers.
  
  He said he was held in a wheel-barrow position, his head and upper body in the water tub while the commandos held his legs up.
  
  Testifying in court, Captain Ho used a dummy to demonstrate how his entire body slid into the tub up to his ankles as he struggled violently for air.
  
  The course was to prepare the trainees for the treatment they might receive as prisoners of war.
  
  The commando trainers had used the dunking to force the trainees to reveal secrets and other personal details like their rank.
  
  Captain Ho told the court: "I could not take it anymore and decided to reveal my actual rank, that I was a Captain. I heard the instructors cheering and doing 'hi-fives'. I was left in the tub and I crawled out of the tub on my own."
  
  Captain Ho was later sent to the Singapore General Hospital where he was warded for seven days for near drowning.
  
  Two other trainees had even more chilling accounts of what happened.
  
  3rd Sergeant Gary Han said he was dunked three times.
  
  Twice he was held underwater for at least 20 seconds and ended up breathing in water through his nose.
  
  "I felt the dip was very scary and death crossed my mind, at one point in time I felt I was going to die," 3rd Sergeant Han said.
  
  Another trainee, 3rd Sergeant Tan Li Thong who was dunked 4 or 5 times, told the court: "I felt traumatized as I could hardly breathe and I was choking because I had inhaled water through my mouth and nose. After the water treatment, I was panting and weeping under my blindfold."
  
  The trainees were asked if they knew they had the option to surrender and give up information in order to stop the water treatment.
  
  They said they knew.
  
  But they also believed if they broke down under interrogation, they would in effect fail the course and may have to repeat the course starting from day one. - CNA
  
  
• HENG@

  5 Oct 04, 05:55

  Originally posted by NathanG5:

  u noe him?

  schmates with me n enhuai n some others of us who r involved in this case one way or another.
• AlwaysInMyHulk

  5 Oct 04, 12:28

  Quote : Over the years, in many other operations conducted away from the glare of media scrutiny, the commandos have put their lives on the line for Singapore.
  
  Quote 2 :all of them went through some equally tough prisoner-of-war training at some point in their career, when training guidelines may have been bent if not broken altogether, and came out of it better soldiers.
  
  Quote 3 : while a training death is unacceptable, tough and sometimes extreme training is a necessity for armed forces, especially their elite troops, if they are to deal effectively with today's threats.
  
  Don't blame them......Be appreciative.......
• NathanG5

  5 Oct 04, 13:11

  Originally posted by AlwaysInMyHulk:
  Quote : [b]Over the years, in many other operations conducted away from the glare of media scrutiny, the commandos have put their lives on the line for Singapore.
  
  so the 4 of them can just kill anyone on the street n we still have to be grateful to the 4 of them? wat kinda bullcrap is that?
  
  Quote 2 :all of them went through some equally tough prisoner-of-war training at some point in their career, when training guidelines may have been bent if not broken altogether, and came out of it better soldiers.
  
  who are the them u are toking abt?
  how come there are death now with 4 seriously injured?
  u tell me..y now? coincidence?
  have u been reading the news?
  
  Quote 3 : while a training death is unacceptable, tough and sometimes extreme training is a necessity for armed forces, especially their elite troops, if they are to deal effectively with today's threats.
  
  Don't blame them......Be appreciative.......[/b]

  who the hell is blaming the commandos formation?
  we are blaming the instructors who cause the death..how come so sensitive?
  
  ARE U ABLE TO TRAIN TO ENDURE TORTURE??? TELL ME!!!!
  ARE U TAT STUPID OR U DUN READ EH???
  
  TELL IT TO THE PARENTS!!!
• HENG@

  5 Oct 04, 23:05

  Originally posted by AlwaysInMyHulk:
  Quote : [b]Over the years, in many other operations conducted away from the glare of media scrutiny, the commandos have put their lives on the line for Singapore.
  
  Quote 2 :all of them went through some equally tough prisoner-of-war training at some point in their career, when training guidelines may have been bent if not broken altogether, and came out of it better soldiers.
  
  Quote 3 : while a training death is unacceptable, tough and sometimes extreme training is a necessity for armed forces, especially their elite troops, if they are to deal effectively with today's threats.
  
  Don't blame them......Be appreciative.......[/b]

  2 words: BRAIN DEAD.
  
  bloody think b4 u speak.
• Xprobe

  6 Oct 04, 01:53

  Personally, I have mixed feelings about this. As an instructor, I need to simulate as close to reality as possible. As a trainee, I am scared shitless if the same happens to me, even in a training scenario.
  
  My guess is no one made any effort in doing additional research in measuring the average human reaction to dunking, from the pre-dunking psyche and how it affects behaviors under water, what are the various reactions during the time of submersion and from there list out clearly what are the dos and donts in handling trainees in this exercise.
  
  The high-fives and pat-on-the-back can be perceived in 2 ways. Firstly, it is want will likely happen if the enemy breaks you, providing that extra psychological stress in the form of mockery and shame on the trainee's psyche. If this is the case, the instructors should not be penalised.
  
  On the other hand, the exercise might have mutated and evolved into an internal competition among the instructors to see who can break the trainee faster OR whose "way" is the most effective. If it is the latter, so much for professionalism. In this context, they should be punished.
  
  My suggestion to the SAF is to review the high risk lessons, conduct more primary research on them (real scientific observations and measurements rather than just gathering opinions from instructors and trainees) and develop a better script for the future. I am sure that if I am unsure of the what is described in the lesson plan, going to my superior for clarity will still yield me an ambiguous answer.
  
  But the fundamental issue is, do we expect the same level of standards between conscripts and regulars? Yes, ideally we always say no compromise. But under this macro rule, some degree of wastage (pardon my language and all due respect to those who are hurt on both sides by this incident) will bound to happen. It is just a matter of probability.
  
  In any case, if it is related to ambiguity of the doctrine, then SAF is to be blamed. If it has to come to this, lets face up to the blame as an organization instead of putting the instructors in a civil court and hope this will go away forever. It wont as long as the fundamentals remain flawed.
  
  To be fair, this story is becoming to sound like a murder case in a civilian court, tried by civilians and reported by a civilian media.
• Xprobe

  6 Oct 04, 15:49

  Asked for his impression of the dunking, Lt Toh said: 'I felt the water treatment was conducted too harshly at times and the dunking was not consistent throughout for trainees.'
  
  See, lack of scientific methods. All that money into hardware but lack of solid R&D on procedures and human science.
• Xprobe

  6 Oct 04, 15:51

  xxx
• Soldier I

  6 Oct 04, 17:41

  I see that we have not moved on from this topic after all that was said in the earlier threads months ago.
  
  I just have a few questions for HENG@ who is a friend of 2SG Hu.
  
  1) Being a sniper-trained guardsman that 2SG Hu was, was he considered an elite soldier?
  
  If the answer is yes, then I suppose that your post:
  
  

  Originally posted by HENG@:

  i would love to see all them elite soldiers stuck in clerk jobs. see how they like it. no playing with guns, only paperwork.

  You are including the late 2SG whom you hold so dear.
  
  2) As an outstanding student and individual that he was as you always like to point out, was he proud to be serving his country as a NSF 2SG sniper-trained guardsman? Did he believe in what he was doing, the vitality of him wearing green in the army and protecting his homeland?
  
  Then your post:
  

  Originally posted by HENG@:

  HA! if its as cock up n screwed up as it is, then is its vitality for real? or is it MERELY A GODAMN ILLUSION? n u must have your head in the clouds if u think we're anything but dead if anyone around us decides to invade. Go se your alarm clock or something. U need to wake up.

  wouldn't you be mocking at what he had stood for?
  
  My point is that while many understand where are you coming from and grief for the loss of an outstanding Singapore youth, that doesn't mean that his death gave you the right to insult anyone's 2yrs+ contribution however "keng" or insignificant that you think it is.
  
  I think previous posts pretty much covered what went wrong and while waiting for the court proceedings to reach on a verdict, harping on and on like what you did is definately not helping to honor the memory of the departed.
• crosshairs

  6 Oct 04, 21:01

  Originally posted by HENG@:

  2 words: BRAIN DEAD.
  
  bloody think b4 u speak.

  Pardon me for asking you this: In the event that you got kidnapped by some terrorists and you were rescued by the very people you so despise, would you take back what you have said?
  
  Because I know, despite knowledge of public anit-elite sentiments coming out from the likes of you, these people will still complete their mission and have you rescued while risking life and limb, but they will probably spit at your face if they recognise you on the streets. Yes, you may be right, in that contradictory sense they are brain dead.
  
• HENG@

  6 Oct 04, 22:06

  Originally posted by crosshairs:

  Pardon me for asking you this: In the event that you got kidnapped by some terrorists and you were rescued by the very people you so despise, would you take back what you have said?
  
  Because I know, despite knowledge of public anit-elite sentiments coming out from the likes of you, these people will still complete their mission and have you rescued while risking life and limb, but they will probably spit at your face if they recognise you on the streets. Yes, you may be right, in that contradictory sense they are brain dead.
  

  maybe u should think too? am i attacking his thinking that bending or breaking the rules is acceptable or am i attacking the CDOs? or do u blindly talk based on what u THINK i said? just for your info, im not for anti-elite sentiments. im against those "unestablished practices" which are the things that undermine the professionalism of the elite forces.
• LazerLordz

  6 Oct 04, 23:45

  Well said man..
• NathanG5

  6 Oct 04, 23:55

  some of us here must get it right..none of us here are blaming the Cdos..cant u guys get it?
  izit very hard to understand?
  
  yes pride is very important for the elite..but once u overflow it..u lost your humanity..be humble...dont be so sensitive...
• Ah Gong

  7 Oct 04, 00:09

  How many commandoes have died in the same training?
  
  2nd sgt Hu died because of "special" treatment just like what the scout PC got. One is guardsmen and one is a captain. so the involved instructors need to be punished.
  
  But i seriously doubt the instructors will get any heavy sentencing
• crosshairs

  7 Oct 04, 00:19

  Originally posted by HENG@:

  maybe u should think too? am i attacking his thinking that bending or breaking the rules is acceptable or am i attacking the CDOs? or do u blindly talk based on what u THINK i said? just for your info, im not for anti-elite sentiments. im against those "unestablished practices" which are the things that undermine the professionalism of the elite forces.

  His thinking was to appreciate. Your reply attempts to invalidate his thinking. My thinking is to invalidate your reply to his. Is there anything confusing about this?
• crosshairs

  7 Oct 04, 00:26

  Originally posted by NathanG5:

  some of us here must get it right..none of us here are blaming the Cdos..cant u guys get it?
  izit very hard to understand?
  
  yes pride is very important for the elite..but once u overflow it..u lost your humanity..be humble...dont be so sensitive...

  Nathan.....can you vouch for every single one of us here that none of us harbours that ill-feeling towards that unit?
  
  Yes/No?
  
  The poor guy whose tone sounded much like yours was called "brain dead". He was attempting to give his part of view of the matter. Who's the one not being humble here? Hmm?
• Xprobe

  7 Oct 04, 00:27

  Originally posted by Ah Gong:

  How many commandoes have died in the same training?
  
  2nd sgt Hu died because of "special" treatment just like what the scout PC got. One is guardsmen and one is a captain. so the involved instructors need to be punished.
  
  But i seriously doubt the instructors will get any heavy sentencing

  Old man, it is not so straightforward and god forbid we just kill the messengers AGAIN, we need to dig deeper and get down to the roots of why this ever happened.
• Xprobe

  7 Oct 04, 00:27

  Originally posted by Ah Gong:

  How many commandoes have died in the same training?
  
  2nd sgt Hu died because of "special" treatment just like what the scout PC got. One is guardsmen and one is a captain. so the involved instructors need to be punished.
  
  But i seriously doubt the instructors will get any heavy sentencing

  Old man, it is not so straightforward and god forbid we just kill the messengers AGAIN, we need to dig deeper and get down to the roots of why this ever happened.
• Xprobe

  7 Oct 04, 00:29

  Originally posted by Ah Gong:

  How many commandoes have died in the same training?
  
  2nd sgt Hu died because of "special" treatment just like what the scout PC got. One is guardsmen and one is a captain. so the involved instructors need to be punished.
  
  But i seriously doubt the instructors will get any heavy sentencing

  Old man, it is not so straightforward and god forbid we just kill the messengers AGAIN, we need to dig deeper and get down to the roots of why this ever happened.
• crosshairs

  7 Oct 04, 00:41

  Originally posted by HENG@:

  i would love to see all them elite soldiers stuck in clerk jobs. see how they like it. no playing with guns, only paperwork.

  Originally posted by HENG@:

  ..............or do u blindly talk based on what u THINK i said? just for your info, im not for anti-elite sentiments. im against those "unestablished practices" which are the things that undermine the professionalism of the elite forces.

  [email protected] one is the real you?
• crosshairs

  7 Oct 04, 00:43

  Originally posted by LazerLordz:

  Well said man..

  You wanna reconsider that compliment?