Witness relates dunking death of soldier
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so far, i see maybe you thinking its significant? well if u want to know: check out the post b4 the 1st post u quoted.Originally posted by crosshairs:It is not up to you to decide its significance, it is up to eveyone here. And therefore it will be right of me to conclude that you cannot resolve this inconsistency in opinions that you have created since you did not attempt to. It doesn't matter what post it was meant to reply to. Fact is you made 2 contradictory statements.
i would love to see all them elite soldiers stuck in clerk jobs. see how they like it. no playing with guns, only paperwork.Originally posted by kwlee:true, it is everyone who make up the armed forces, not jus the cdo unit or guards. Every1 has their part to play.
Quoted :
It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing
can ultimatily cause a typhoon halfway around the world.
SOLDIERS UNITE...
this was my post IN CONTEXT to the previous post, where I express my views that sometimes ppl think an armed forces is made up of the rambos and no one else. THAT post is aimed at those who just go on and on about how impt the CDOs are. Yes. Well they do play an impt role in the SAF, THAT post was intended to point out that the SAF is a sum of a whole and that no one part can operate without the rest of it.
So there. thats what that post was for. Now com'on. Bring on the rest of your pointless Shit. So is making me look bad going to help those instructors? huh? -
if u think no one here can change anything? WHY do YOU come here to open your big mouth then? u dun need to wake up. u CAN'T.Originally posted by vroomvroom:still got so many ppl here KPKB havnt finished?
wake up lah.....talk so much BIG logic for fark?
Anyone here can change anything???
Heng@ u ask me to wake up earlier on.....when i posted something which in my opinion is just a harmless opinion...
well ok if i havnt woken up..so be it...
What about yourself??????!!!!!
talk so much jiao wei for fark?
U can post another 100,000 post on this matter...
At the end of the day, can anything be change????
can the dead be brought back alive????
dio boh?!!?!?!
Well ON your alarm clock as well.. smart alec! -
"In Context" is a poor excuse. You seem to think that as long as it is written "in context" to a particular post in reply to another, it relieves one of any need to account for a statement which so reflects the very desire to see (quote: LOVE TO SEE) your fellow servicemen in dire straits. Perhaps you haven't realised or are unaware of this nature of yours, and in so have unwitting let it rear it's ugly head in your postings.Originally posted by HENG@:i would love to see all them elite soldiers stuck in clerk jobs. see how they like it. no playing with guns, only paperwork.
this was my post IN CONTEXT to the previous post, where I express my views that sometimes ppl think an armed forces is made up of the rambos and no one else. THAT post is aimed at those who just go on and on about how impt the CDOs are. Yes. Well they do play an impt role in the SAF, THAT post was intended to point out that the SAF is a sum of a whole and that no one part can operate without the rest of it.
So there. thats what that post was for. Now com'on. Bring on the rest of your pointless Shit. So is making me look bad going to help those instructors? huh?
You are making yourself look bad. Helping those instructors is none of my concern. -
Perhaps you are just the same as the very people you held responsible for the death of your friend.
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oh so being stuck in paperwork is dire straits? I hardly think so. Is that worse than being drowned? I doub t so. Nathan prob knows what I mean. you, if u can't get it, too bad. but u know what? I do have a desire to just F ppl who've done wrong to ppl or things i care about. And right now, u're just another one standing out for those Fuckers. If u had any sensitivity u would just shut up, and get out. U ain't the one who had a friend killed by a system u've long seen the defects of. If u wanna continue your personal war with me, go ahead but take it out of here. Meanwhile, piss off.Originally posted by crosshairs:"In Context" is a poor excuse. You seem to think that as long as it is written "in context" to a particular post in reply to another, it relieves one of any need to account for a statement which so reflects the very desire to see (quote: LOVE TO SEE) your fellow servicemen in dire straits. Perhaps you haven't realised or are unaware of this nature of yours, and in so have unwitting let it rear it's ugly head in your postings.
You are making yourself look bad. Helping those instructors is none of my concern.
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+1Originally posted by HENG@:oh so being stuck in paperwork is dire straits? I hardly think so. Is that worse than being drowned? I doub t so. Nathan prob knows what I mean. you, if u can't get it, too bad. but u know what? I do have a desire to just F ppl who've done wrong to ppl or things i care about. And right now, u're just another one standing out for those Fuckers. If u had any sensitivity u would just shut up, and get out. U ain't the one who had a friend killed by a system u've long seen the defects of. If u wanna continue your personal war with me, go ahead but take it out of here. Meanwhile, piss off. -
All you guys..cool it man...
Heng is trying to tell everyone why he feels that the system has let the late 2SG Hu and how he feels towards this.We can sit on the fence, take Heng's stand , or have our own stand,But why resort to mud-slinging and name-calling, a so-called philosophical discussion that becomes a sarcastic CQB between two fellows is just another mud wrestling contest called by a better name.Have your differences but let's all be adults here.The instructors made a fatal mistake,they should suffer the full brunt.Nothing more nothing less.Anyone who can defend their actions in the context of peacetime training with such ferocity must have had their conscience on blinkers all this while... -
OK, back on track, as the story unfolds itself, it feels like karma coming into play:
1. (Supposedly appointed) Safety Officer wanted to have a hand in the adminstration of the lesson.
2. Airforce giving a "not acceptable" reply to heli evac request.
3. Instructors not fulling understanding the limits of administering the water treatment.
Against such odds, it is lucky that some survived. -
From the straits times interactive
TRIAL ON SOLDIER'S DEATH
Trainee who died was fit for training: Doc
THE doctor who found Second Sergeant Hu Enhuai fit to go through combat survival training said his assessment would be the same even if he had known the course required trainees to meet the highest fitness standards.
This is because 2nd Sgt Hu had passed the standard medical examination for soldiers taking part in combat training, said Dr Ong Song Ching.
The question arose yesterday because 2nd Sgt Hu had been given the lower PES B grade in 2001 - and the course requirements specify that trainees must be PES A.
The PES, or physical employment standard, status came up in the trial of four commandos charged with rashly causing the death of 2nd Sgt Hu by repeatedly dunking him in a tub of sea water.
Dr Ong, now with Singapore General Hospital, had examined 2nd Sgt Hu on Aug 6 last year before the soldier went for the course, which started on Aug 13.
Yesterday, defence lawyer N. K. Rajarh asked Dr Ong if he would have certified 2nd Sgt Hu fit for the course had he known trainees are required to be PES A.
From a medical point of view, he said, it was irrelevant whether 2nd Sgt Hu was PES A or B as long as he passed the FFI criteria, referring to Fitness For Instruction, a medical check-up procedure in the Singapore Armed Forces (SAF).
He also disagreed that a doctor must know the 'extent of the physical regime' that trainees undergo in a course before certifying a soldier fit for it.
'I disagree, because the purpose of the FFI is to exclude any medical condition that would prevent the soldier from participating in SAF combat training in general,' said Dr Ong.
Knowing the contents of the course would not have altered his assessment, he said.
The reason for 2nd Sgt Hu's PES B status - a 'less flexible' Achilles tendon in his left ankle - would not have affected his ability to go through the course, he added.
Another witness who testified was a commando, 2nd Sgt Lui Yong Fook, who was among the trainees hospitalised for breathing in salt water.
He said he had expected to be 'forcefully pushed down' in water, having seen it in 'the movies, it's normal POW training'.
The trial continues. -
It's one circus, save for a rampaging elephant.Let's see what is revealed as the case progresses.Prepare to see more damning statements by those who claim to be brothers in arms.When your own life ,freedom and reputation is at stake, brotherhood ain't worth 2 cents.Hope this saga really shakes up the malodorous system which we hav in the SAF currently.Originally posted by Xprobe:OK, back on track, as the story unfolds itself, it feels like karma coming into play:
1. (Supposedly appointed) Safety Officer wanted to have a hand in the adminstration of the lesson.
2. Airforce giving a "not acceptable" reply to heli evac request.
3. Instructors not fulling understanding the limits of administering the water treatment.
Against such odds, it is lucky that some survived. -
I believe many of us are disgusted by the mishap/tragedy. Boiling blood and pure outrage fills many of our minds. There is little we can do to change or determine the outcome of this matter, however, we can show the courst and the SAF how serious many of us feel. I believe those of us that are able and willing should attend the court hearing as it continues, as a show of support to the fallen one and to those highly affected. We all want the ones responsible to pay dearly. Let's not let this incident be swept under the carpet by the authorities, and let's show SAF and the governing party, how serious we are about it.
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Singapore : Lieutenant Ng Chin Fong, the first of the 4 commandos on trial to take the stand, has told the court that he can't remember dunking 2nd Sergeant Hu En Huai, the trainee who died and he is very sure that he did not dunk Captain Ho Wan Hou, who is the other survival course trainee who nearly drowned.
Lieutenant Ng says he could not have been the one who plunged Captain Ho in a tub of water during the Combat Survival course.
The reason, he argued, is the way he dunked each trainee. He would use one hand to grab the back of the trainee's collar and the other hand to lift the trainee by the back of his waist.
Captain Ho had testified that the trainer dunking him and had used one hand to hold his mouth and nose open.
Captain Ho had also told the court that the trainer who held his mouth and nose open wore half gloves with his fingers exposed.
But Lieutenant Ng says he wore full gloves with his fingers covered.
As for Sergeant Hu, Lieutenant Ng says he can't remember dunking him, nor can he remember any trainee collapsing after the water treatment.
When asked about the CST lesson plan, Lieutenant Ng told the court he made several attempts to obtain the document but was unsuccessful and therefore, has never seen it. Although he admits the lesson plan was accessible, he said there is a difference whether or not it was actually made available to him. - CNA
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pardon me, but i find this rather ludicrous. cannot remember!? what kind of excuse is that?!?! it sounds like hes trying to slimely swindle his way out of this affair. -
amnesia. how convenient. how come this kind of coward can get into the CDO n be a officer somemore?Originally posted by wuming78:Singapore : Lieutenant Ng Chin Fong, the first of the 4 commandos on trial to take the stand, has told the court that he can't remember dunking 2nd Sergeant Hu En Huai, the trainee who died and he is very sure that he did not dunk Captain Ho Wan Hou, who is the other survival course trainee who nearly drowned.
Lieutenant Ng says he could not have been the one who plunged Captain Ho in a tub of water during the Combat Survival course.
The reason, he argued, is the way he dunked each trainee. He would use one hand to grab the back of the trainee's collar and the other hand to lift the trainee by the back of his waist.
Captain Ho had testified that the trainer dunking him and had used one hand to hold his mouth and nose open.
Captain Ho had also told the court that the trainer who held his mouth and nose open wore half gloves with his fingers exposed.
But Lieutenant Ng says he wore full gloves with his fingers covered.
As for Sergeant Hu, Lieutenant Ng says he can't remember dunking him, nor can he remember any trainee collapsing after the water treatment.
When asked about the CST lesson plan, Lieutenant Ng told the court he made several attempts to obtain the document but was unsuccessful and therefore, has never seen it. Although he admits the lesson plan was accessible, he said there is a difference whether or not it was actually made available to him. - CNA
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pardon me, but i find this rather ludicrous. cannot remember!? what kind of excuse is that?!?! it sounds like hes trying to slimely swindle his way out of this affair. -
Precisely.What a way to dodge responsibility...Such a pansy.
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Oh dear...what a good execuse
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When push comes to shove, how to rely on such a person, at least to speak the truth and stand up to it. Boooo...shame the creedOriginally posted by LoVeMeLoVeMenOt:Oh dear...what a good execuse -
Q: Is it Commando SOP - or loophole - that any "qualified" instructor could suka-suka join in a training activity, even if he's not given a specific course appointment prior? That wasn't the culture when I taught my batch of mono-intake recruits (albeit a different context).
[Also, with us I recall the lesson plans were also accessible. Most of us DI's admittedly don't read it, though I did skim through a few (out of curiosity). Our training lecturer, a NSF, was very diligent with his preparation though, to the extent the other training cadre guys jibed him about "bo peng yau si" for carrying the files purposefully all the time.]
To quote from TODAY:
"He also revealed that he wasn't even appointed to conduct his last CST, but had volunteered when WO S Balakrishnan was giving out tasks to other instructors. He explained: 'I volunteered myself because I was not doing anything else & I left that I needed to assist them because the 80th course had the largest number of trainees, as far as I know."
He, Lt Divanandhari Chandrasekharan & Lt Ryan Toh Keng Tiong went to the training site after their reconnaissance exercise was cut short that day." -
No la...it is their nature to be on-the-ball 24/7 even if it is the wrong ballOriginally posted by Moxie:Q: Is it Commando SOP - or loophole - that any "qualified" instructor could suka-suka join in a training activity, even if he's not given a specific course appointment prior? That wasn't the culture when I taught my batch of mono-intake recruits (albeit a different context).
[Also, with us I recall the lesson plans were also accessible. Most of us DI's admittedly don't read it, though I did skim through a few (out of curiosity). Our training lecturer, a NSF, was very diligent with his preparation though, to the extent the other training cadre guys jibed him about "bo peng yau si" for carrying the files purposefully all the time.]
To quote from TODAY:
"He also revealed that he wasn't even appointed to conduct his last CST, but had volunteered when WO S Balakrishnan was giving out tasks to other instructors. He explained: 'I volunteered myself because I was not doing anything else & I left that I needed to assist them because the 80th course had the largest number of trainees, as far as I know."
He, Lt Divanandhari Chandrasekharan & Lt Ryan Toh Keng Tiong went to the training site after their reconnaissance exercise was cut short that day." -
MUAHAHAHA! wah lau damn funny. i almost spewed my mouthful of milo onto my laptop.Originally posted by Xprobe:No la...it is their nature to be on-the-ball 24/7 even if it is the wrong ball
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Latest news from http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/112435/1/.html
Posted: 19 October 2004 2108 hrs
Second trainer denies dunking commando trainees
By Dominique Loh, Channel NewsAsia
SINGAPORE : The second commando officer charged with causing the death of 2nd Sergeant Hu En Huai has taken the stand.
Lieutenant Divanandhari claims he does not remember dunking Sergeant Hu and was not involved in dunking Captain Ho Wan Huo, who nearly drowned
This is exactly the same testimony given by the first commando trainer - Lieutenant Ng Chin Fong.
Lieutenant Divanandhari admits that he escorted Captain Ho Wan Huo to the water tank, but when he reached the water treatment area, the commando said he handed him over to the other instructors.
He did not dunk the captain, who nearly drowned.
He claims he only helped to dunk trainees later to speed things up - when the training fell behind schedule.
He said he dunked around 10 trainees, but cannot recall if Sergeant Hu was among them.
He told the court: "If I had dipped Captain Ho or 2nd Sergeant Hu, I believe Captain Ho would have been okay and Sergeant Hu would be alive today. If I am tasked to do the same water treatment with the same water tub tomorrow, I would have the experience and knowledge as a professional instructor to conduct a safe prisoner of war water treatment training."
Lieutenant Diva learned the ropes at the Commando Training Wing by watching and learning from other senior instructors.
Since his posting in 1998, he had undergone 27 CST and three Ranger courses as an instructor.
During that time, he had never witnessed a serious casualty that needed a medical evacuation.
He had also seen the CST lesson plan, he said infact it was adapted from the Ranger course. - CNA
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Another commando trainer "cannot remember" whether he dunked Sgt Hu.
How convenient..... -
Originally posted by Ibram Gaunt:
whooo! hey check it out! commandos turn choirboys! its a wee bit late to get castrated to join the vienna boys' choir ain't it Ng & Diva? like... about 20 years too late?
[b]Latest news from http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/112435/1/.html
Posted: 19 October 2004 2108 hrs
Second trainer denies dunking commando trainees
By Dominique Loh, Channel NewsAsia
SINGAPORE : The second commando officer charged with causing the death of 2nd Sergeant Hu En Huai has taken the stand.
Lieutenant Divanandhari claims he does not remember dunking Sergeant Hu and was not involved in dunking Captain Ho Wan Huo, who nearly drowned
This is exactly the same testimony given by the first commando trainer - Lieutenant Ng Chin Fong.
Lieutenant Divanandhari admits that he escorted Captain Ho Wan Huo to the water tank, but when he reached the water treatment area, the commando said he handed him over to the other instructors.
He did not dunk the captain, who nearly drowned.
He claims he only helped to dunk trainees later to speed things up - when the training fell behind schedule.
He said he dunked around 10 trainees, but cannot recall if Sergeant Hu was among them.
He told the court: "If I had dipped Captain Ho or 2nd Sergeant Hu, I believe Captain Ho would have been okay and Sergeant Hu would be alive today. If I am tasked to do the same water treatment with the same water tub tomorrow, I would have the experience and knowledge as a professional instructor to conduct a safe prisoner of war water treatment training."
Lieutenant Diva learned the ropes at the Commando Training Wing by watching and learning from other senior instructors.
Since his posting in 1998, he had undergone 27 CST and three Ranger courses as an instructor.
During that time, he had never witnessed a serious casualty that needed a medical evacuation.
He had also seen the CST lesson plan, he said infact it was adapted from the Ranger course. - CNA
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Another commando trainer "cannot remember" whether he dunked Sgt Hu.
How convenient.....
[/b]
*SNORT* -
It seems to me that none of the commando trainers are willing to step forward to take responsibility for the tragedy.
And I thought that commandos are gung-ho, brave and fearless. The best of the best.
Sadly, when it comes to the crunch, their courage to admit responsibility FAILS them. A real officer will never duck responsibility for the men under his charge. -
So both trainers deny responsibility for the dunking? ~scarcasm~
Gee, where's the bunch of Teo Chee Hean-conspiracy chest thumpers from 2 months back .... -
ACCUSED Lieutenant Divanandhari Ambat Chandrasekharan, 28, was emotional in court yesterday as he addressed eyewitness claims that he removed the epaulette from Capt Ho Wan Huo's uniform, threw it on the ground and stepped on it.
HAHAHAHAHA .. you all read his response? Damn funny man! Really wayang words of the highest level liao!
This was his response:
'I have been a disciplined officer for the last eight years in the Singapore Armed Forces.
'Having gone through the premier school for officer training, being a platoon commander, leading my men by example, training boys to be men, making men to be officers, I would never, and will never, step on an epaulette that signifies a fellow officer and has the Singapura word, which is my country, to be stepped upon under my feet, or would allow anybody to insult that rank.'
Divanandhari said that after removing the epaulette - worn to show an officer's rank - to question Capt Ho, he put it back in the trainee's right trouser pocket.
Premier school for officer training .. lead by example .. *I am so touched* -
If he is such a good officier he will have promoted to CPT then