Venture Era - a defending point of view.
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Originally posted by laurence82:
So why so defensive? Like I said, couldnt you leverage my points to verify whatever was being said to you? Is it so difficult?
I am not really interested in you defending VE, thats irrelevant, however, your actions shown otherwise.
Wrong. It has been proven, like the examples before, that quality was never a factor in these firms, yet they have grown big, they fooled the public, like yourself with the word 'quality'. Yet they go bust or survives as hobbling elephants.
What say you?
I have verified them. But there's no need for me to convince you or anyone here coz that's not my concern. It's not like I don't know how hostile and fruitless forum discussions can end up. So I am sticking to a neutral stand instead of going against the majority here. I won't stand to gain anything if I had tried to bring up evidence.
Size is definitely a good indicator of quality. Like I've said, your example was vague and is not a good representation of the population.
Another simple analogy.
Of course I know that there are left handers in this world. But they are the minority. You don't have to name me Mr Tom, Dick and Harry and try to "bullshit" your argument through by saying that everyone in the world are left handers.
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Originally posted by Hardcoreblizzard:
I have verified them. But there's no need for me to convince you or anyone here coz that's not my concern. It's not like I don't know how hostile and fruitless forum discussions can end up. So I am sticking to a neutral stand instead of going against the majority here. I won't stand to gain anything if I had tried to bring up evidence.
Size is definitely a good indicator of quality. Like I've said, your example was vague and is not a good representation of the population.
Another simple analogy.
Of course I know that there are left handers in this world. But they are the minority. You don't have to name me Mr Tom, Dick and Harry and try to "bullshit" your argument through by saying that everyone in the world are left handers.
Irrelevant analogy. Knowing the number of left handers does not matter or have any impact. Its the bullshitting by a forumer that is the issue here.
Just simply asking you to prove or stand up or even verify what you said, and you go the entire length and breadth of this morning discussion just to avoid it.
Whether or not you are an agent, is irrelevant. You are just spewing out stuff you do not want to defend. What is there to discuss?
Sheesh
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So how is size a good indicator of quality? Since you said it does not apply to whole population, then its inherent you must prove its applicable to VE.
You cant seems to prove either of these.
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Originally posted by laurence82:
Which is why i am questioning you. How I know you are not fooled by fake certificates, ambiguous and bombastic uses of terms, irrelevant but yet supportive points?
I am expecting you, to use little grey matter, and verify these points. Its already ridiculous that you said these are verified and checked by PSB, knowing well PSB or other organisations would not place themselves in a position to support alternative therapies 100%. Even conventional drugs already has problems passing HSA tests.
You also contradicted yourself by saying these are shown to be of quality, not effective. Means I know these magnets are of 100 gauss but is useless in any treatments or preventive therapies?
Get your facts right before even presenting them.
Of course I am well aware of such scam firms using pseudo-scientific terms. You can be skeptical, but that doesn't mean that I have to follow suit. But to doubt every single certs would be no different from me questioning the authencity of your birth cert. It's simply unnecessary. Even in the event that it is really fake, I have no one to blame, not even myself.
PSB does not place themselves in positions to support alternative therapies 100%. Definitely! But can't they prove that the products are of genuine quality and safe? Of course they can!
I like your point about the contradiction between quality and effectiveness. I asked that question too. Basically, even for medicines, there's no 100% effectiveness because of the variables in different human bodies. No one will ever claim to be 100% sure of anything simply because they are afraid of getting into trouble. Isn't it common to see condom ads saying that they are 99% safe. And also Detol which claims that it kills 99% of germs. It's the same thing. Magnetic therapy is not a 100% effective treatment, but still, it is effective.
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Originally posted by Hardcoreblizzard:
Of course I am well aware of such scam firms using pseudo-scientific terms. You can be skeptical, but that doesn't mean that I have to follow suit. But to doubt every single certs would be no different from me questioning the authencity of your birth cert. It's simply unnecessary. Even in the event that it is really fake, I have no one to blame, not even myself.
PSB does not place themselves in positions to support alternative therapies 100%. Definitely! But can't they prove that the products are of genuine quality and safe? Of course they can!
I like your point about the contradiction between quality and effectiveness. I asked that question too. Basically, even for medicines, there's no 100% effectiveness because of the variables in different human bodies. No one will ever claim to be 100% sure of anything simply because they are afraid of getting into trouble. Isn't it common to see condom ads saying that they are 99% safe. And also Detol which claims that it kills 99% of germs. It's the same thing. Magnetic therapy is not a 100% effective treatment, but still, it is effective.
You can only blame yourself. You have every opportunity not to be misled. You have the vast resources of internet, libraries, connections, experts and yet you squander the opportunity. Just like the people who lost their money in Sunshine, Madoff or even Lehman, they only have themselves to be blamed.
PSB is Public Service Board. What are you talking about? So they cant support that magnetic theraphy is effective. In short, its not proven that magnetic theraphy is effective, not even by local agencies.I am sure this is what you mean.
We are not talking about 100% effectiveness. Dont twist the topic. Doctors or scientists can tell me that, but not scammers nor sales agents. They know about the medicine they give to patients and their rate of effectiveness. If you are trying to sell something and you are not even sure of the effectiveness, what are you trying to prove?
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Originally posted by laurence82:
Irrelevant analogy. Knowing the number of left handers does not matter or have any impact. Its the bullshitting by a forumer that is the issue here.
Just simply asking you to prove or stand up or even verify what you said, and you go the entire length and breadth of this morning discussion just to avoid it.
Whether or not you are an agent, is irrelevant. You are just spewing out stuff you do not want to defend. What is there to discuss?
Sheesh
Precisely! By naming a few left handers, you can't prove that everyone in the world are left handers. Neither can you name a few companies that are big but without quality and then claim that you are proving that size of companies are not indicator of their quality! That's exactly what "bullshitting by a forumer" is!
I'm here to gather opinions. Whether it aids you in your understanding of the company or not is of no concern to me. I have my rights to choose not to discuss. You can say that I am avoiding because I really am. If that loses all my credibility, go ahead and warn everyone about me!
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In the current new age economy, there are a lot of facilities that can allow a facade of grandness. To assume that a "big" company has quality products simply by outlook alone is like saying Miss Singapore must be very pretty without asking her to remove her make up.
I would advise looking at the books when you judge the company. Though even that can be deceiving some times.
Even by looking at the account books, from the viewpoint of a marketing person, I can only say they have a great marketing team. I can't judge the quality of the products based on figures alone. When you talk about quality, you must always be able to compare apple to apple. There must be another product you can compare to and say that this product is of a higher quality over the other. But you cannot claim that it is of a good quality because "good" by itself is subjective. The same goes for effectiveness. If there is no other point of comparison, 1% effectiveness would be effective. But would that really be effective?
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Originally posted by laurence82:
You can only blame yourself. You have every opportunity not to be misled. You have the vast resources of internet, libraries, connections, experts and yet you squander the opportunity. Just like the people who lost their money in Sunshine, Madoff or even Lehman, they only have themselves to be blamed.
PSB is Public Service Board. What are you talking about? So they cant support that magnetic theraphy is effective. In short, its not proven that magnetic theraphy is effective, not even by local agencies.I am sure this is what you mean.
We are not talking about 100% effectiveness. Dont twist the topic. Doctors or scientists can tell me that, but not scammers nor sales agents. They know about the medicine they give to patients and their rate of effectiveness. If you are trying to sell something and you are not even sure of the effectiveness, what are you trying to prove?
Yes of course I have myself to blame if I had not bothered to find out anything before making any decisions. I had spent almost a week asking them questions about their credibility, products and business ethics. Basically what that has been brought up in this forum, I have brought it to their attention as well. I am very convinced by them. They showed me certs, articles and books on magnetic therapies. I've stated the book in one of my previous posts. If after all these, it turns out to be a scam. I won't blame myself really. I'll just blame my luck and I'll also be very impressed by the extend that they have went to cheat everyone in the world.
I know the effectiveness of the products. It varies with each person. I'm not proving anything like I've said. Take it or leave it, I'm not here to convince you about their products.
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Originally posted by Hardcoreblizzard:
Precisely! By naming a few left handers, you can't prove that everyone in the world are left handers. Neither can you name a few companies that are big but without quality and then claim that you are proving that size of companies are not indicator of their quality! That's exactly what "bullshitting by a forumer" is!
I'm here to gather opinions. Whether it aids you in your understanding of the company or not is of no concern to me. I have my rights to choose not to discuss. You can say that I am avoiding because I really am. If that loses all my credibility, go ahead and warn everyone about me!
Nope. Dun twist my words. You were trying to say if VE products are not good, otherwise it wouldnt reach its size. I said size is not an indication of quality. Because you are the very person who said so. MEaning you tried to apply this theory to all companies. Thats why I said it cant be. Therefore, instead of twisting, you should have prove why would it be an good indicator for VE. Yet you did not prove anything that supports VE.
Basically it means you cannot prove whatever you just said for the last few pages. and like you admited, you are avoiding. Period. We will stop it at that.You have no credibility and whatever people said, in your ears, its just anti MLM message.
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Originally posted by Callan:
In the current new age economy, there are a lot of facilities that can allow a facade of grandness. To assume that a "big" company is has quality products simply by outlook alone is like saying Miss Singapore must be very pretty without asking her to remove her make up.
I would advise looking at the books when you judge the company. Though even that can be deceiving some times.
Even by looking at the account books, from the viewpoint of a marketing person, I can only say they have a great marketing team. I can't judge the quality of the products based on figures alone. When you talk about quality, you must always be able to compare apple to apple. There must be another product you can compare to and say that this product is of a higher quality over the other. But you cannot claim that it is of a good quality because "good" by itself is subjective. The same goes for effectiveness. If there is no other point of comparison, 1% effectiveness would be effective. But would that really be effective?
Now this is what I am here for. Alternative viewpoints and constructive discussions. Thanks for your feedback. I'll pay more attention to this issue.
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Originally posted by Hardcoreblizzard:
Yes of course I have myself to blame if I had not bothered to find out anything before making any decisions. I had spent almost a week asking them questions about their credibility, products and business ethics. Basically what that has been brought up in this forum, I have brought it to their attention as well. I am very convinced by them. They showed me certs, articles and books on magnetic therapies. I've stated the book in one of my previous posts. If after all these, it turns out to be a scam. I won't blame myself really. I'll just blame my luck and I'll also be very impressed by the extend that they have went to cheat everyone in the world.
I know the effectiveness of the products. It varies with each person. I'm not proving anything like I've said. Take it or leave it, I'm not here to convince you about their products.
You said you have no one to blame, not even yourself. Now you said you can only blame yourself. Luck is not an option for me. Not even for business. Too bad, hard to explain to you as you are a novice.
Avoiding again. You know what is quality vs effectiveness and yet you can be convinced about their product effectiveness when you also said only quality is ensured.
Contradictory.
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Originally posted by laurence82:
Nope. Dun twist my words. You were trying to say if VE products are not good, otherwise it wouldnt reach its size. I said size is not an indication of quality. Because you are the very person who said so. MEaning you tried to apply this theory to all companies. Thats why I said it cant be. Therefore, instead of twisting, you should have prove why would it be an good indicator for VE. Yet you did not prove anything that supports VE.
Basically it means you cannot prove whatever you just said for the last few pages. and like you admited, you are avoiding. Period. We will stop it at that.You have no credibility and whatever people said, in your ears, its just anti MLM message.
Then I would like to introduce the words "majority" and "minority" to you. What i'm referring to is the "majority", while you were referring to the "minority". Just because you are able to name a few, you are not proving anything. Size generally, is a good indicator of the level of accomplishment of and company, and thus indirectly the product quality. What would be a better argument for you would be to prove that the majority of big firms have products which lack quality.
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Originally posted by Hardcoreblizzard:
Then I would like to introduce the words "majority" and "minority" to you. What i'm referring to is the "majority", while you were referring to the "minority". Just because you are able to name a few, you are not proving anything. Size generally, is a good indicator of the level of accomplishment of and company, and thus indirectly the product quality. What would be a better argument for you would be to prove that the majority of big firms have products which lack quality.
No. I was never concerned with majority or minority. You did when you start to say it doesnt apply to all. What I am most concerned is, how can you said VE is to be judged by its size when size is not an good indicator of quality. You must prove the underlying relationship between quality, size and VE. Not separately.
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Originally posted by laurence82:
You said you have no one to blame, not even yourself. Now you said you can only blame yourself. Luck is not an option for me. Not even for business. Too bad, hard to explain to you as you are a novice.
Avoiding again. You know what is quality vs effectiveness and yet you can be convinced about their product effectiveness when you also said only quality is ensured.
Contradictory.
Yup. I have only myself to blame if I hadn't tried finding out more about them. The fact is that I did and even in the event that I get cheated, I won't blame myself. Is that too hard for you to comprehend?
I know what's quality and what's effectiveness. I'm convinced by them. It's you who's not convinced.
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Originally posted by Hardcoreblizzard:
Then I would like to introduce the words "majority" and "minority" to you. What i'm referring to is the "majority", while you were referring to the "minority". Just because you are able to name a few, you are not proving anything. Size generally, is a good indicator of the level of accomplishment of and company, and thus indirectly the product quality. What would be a better argument for you would be to prove that the majority of big firms have products which lack quality.
Projected size in a public opinion setting is a subset of perception. Perception is nothing more than successful information warfare.
Laymen also call that successful advertising. Hehe..
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Originally posted by Hardcoreblizzard:
Yup. I have only myself to blame if I hadn't tried finding out more about them. The fact is that I did and even in the event that I get cheated, I won't blame myself. Is that too hard for you to comprehend?
I know what's quality and what's effectiveness. I'm convinced by them. It's you who's not convinced.
Apologies, but it seems that you have not made the slightest effort. You were defensive and refuses to answer my points about your verification methods. Again, you have such resources, but you squander it away. You are one of those who not only did not make any research, but rather, refuse to make research.
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Originally posted by Hardcoreblizzard:
Yup. I have only myself to blame if I hadn't tried finding out more about them. The fact is that I did and even in the event that I get cheated, I won't blame myself. Is that too hard for you to comprehend?
I know what's quality and what's effectiveness. I'm convinced by them. It's you who's not convinced.
You did not. Otherwise, you are right. I agree with you. VE products are not proven to be effective.
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Originally posted by laurence82:
No. I was never concerned with majority or minority. You did when you start to say it doesnt apply to all. What I am most concerned is, how can you said VE is to be judged by its size when size is not an good indicator of quality. You must prove the underlying relationship between quality, size and VE. Not separately.
Of course I know you were never concerned with majority or minority just by looking at the depth of your examples. That's why I brought it to your attention. And I further went on to confirm that size is a good indicator of quality for the majority. I have already explained the relationship between size and quality.
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Originally posted by LazerLordz:
Projected size in a public opinion setting is a subset of perception. Perception is nothing more than successful information warfare.
Laymen also call that successful advertising. Hehe..
Wow. That's insightful. Lol.
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Originally posted by Hardcoreblizzard:
Of course I know you were never concerned with majority or minority just by looking at the depth of your examples. That's why I brought it to your attention. And I further went on to confirm that size is a good indicator of quality for the majority. I have already explained the relationship between size and quality.
Because the rules does not apply to all company. If there is a relationship between size and quality, it means you are saying its applicable to all companies. Yet you were proven wrong.
Also, why I am not concerned with majority nor minority is because I asked, and which you cant prove, is how these two relates to VE too.
Simple.
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Originally posted by laurence82:
Apologies, but it seems that you have not made the slightest effort. You were defensive and refuses to answer my points about your verification methods. Again, you have such resources, but you squander it away. You are one of those who not only did not make any research, but rather, refuse to make research.
I have made enough effort to find out about the company. I just don't see any point to doubt them further even after they have flashed their evidence. I researched on their products. Shut up and stop pretending to know that I don't do my research. You are not me.
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Originally posted by laurence82:
Because the rules does not apply to all company. If there is a relationship between size and quality, it means you are saying its applicable to all companies. Yet you were proven wrong.
Also, why I am not concerned with majority nor minority is because I asked, and which you cant prove, is how these two relates to VE too.
Simple.
Indeed there are exceptions. That's why I mentioned MAJORITY. That doesn't apply to all. You have not proven me wrong.
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Originally posted by Hardcoreblizzard:
I have made enough effort to find out about the company. I just don't see any point to doubt them further even after they have flashed their evidence. I researched on their products. Shut up and stop pretending to know that I don't do my research. You are not me.
I wouldnt
To me, you have not done anything adequately. The only way is to prove it. Means I wouldnt keep quiet about it, unless you got stuff to hide.
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Originally posted by Hardcoreblizzard:
Indeed there are exceptions. That's why I mentioned MAJORITY. That doesn't apply to all. You have not proven me wrong.
So you contradicted yourself. There is no proof size is a definitive indication of quality, since it cant be proven. Also, you have not proven how size is related to quality and to VE
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Originally posted by laurence82:
I wouldnt
To me, you have not done anything adequately. The only way is to prove it. Means I wouldnt keep quiet about it, unless you got stuff to hide.
Wow. I've got stuff to hide.