Novena Church exorcism suit begins
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nope, give my opinions only.. if anything u feel i say incorrect abt e case just say lor.. i might miss out or get certain issues wrong ma..
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*double post sorry
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Originally posted by mamamamama:
The defense lawyers managed to exposed and reveal so many loopholes and inconsistency with AV & co's statements yet i realised Bajwa only keep saying stuffs like "that video is heavily biased", "you are filled with hatred for her", "you're a liar", bla bla bla..
For every sentence they give, he opposed to it by saying that they lied and are siding with the Church / Father.
Blood boiling liao.. Hope she really gets what she deserves..
Bajwa got nothing concrete to say wat. Just like why spend so many hours goreng that girl over the email. He said it is influencing others. This is not jury trial. Judge got received email or not? Bajwa is the amateur lah and anyhow call others amateur! The most damaging evidence are 1) her deliberaterly deceiptful medical history and 2) she said while she was in a trance she laughed at the priests for trying to help her, thinking she is better than them and yet her sister who has knowledge/experience of trance and the psychiastrists say that in a trance she would not be aware of what is happening. Since she is so clear about what happened to her, what trance then? -
Originally posted by adetet:
Bajwa got nothing concrete to say wat. Just like why spend so many hours goreng that girl over the email. He said it is influencing others. This is not jury trial. Judge got received email or not? Bajwa is the amateur lah and anyhow call others amateur! The most damaging evidence are 1) her deliberaterly deceiptful medical history and 2) she said while she was in a trance she laughed at the priests for trying to help her, thinking she is better than them and yet her sister who has knowledge/experience of trance and the psychiastrists say that in a trance she would not be aware of what is happening. Since she is so clear about what happened to her, what trance then?
Just like how he spent so much time grilling the Father over the definition of Exorcism and Prayer. Seems to me he thinks that he can better define what constitutes to an exorcism or a prayer, better than a Priest. Its like saying i can interpret law terms better than a lawyer. Ridiculous. -
I itcing to type out more but I cant until the case is concluded.
Lets just I was at the scene when the accusation about Mr issac's junior lawyer trying to interfere or try to represent the family case has the lawyer really cross.
And Fr Simon is a lovely man. I wore a obvious buddha word pendant on my neck and Fr Simon never said a word about it or oppose it. He is a good man to talk to and not a mean bone in him.
I can only say i am sorry this happend but it did bring me face to face with a really nice man.
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Amutha's sister testified against her and exposed Amutha's evil plan that has been planned for many years.
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Dumbdumb wrote
protestants don't have mass.
and what u felt was oppression, not possession. if you're possessed, your mental, emotional and physical state isn't in your control.
oppression - you feel depressed, hopeless, demonic influence etc.
=)
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I wasn't talking about the liturgy I was talking about the service or what I a Catholic call a mass. I do not know what Protestants call their sermon on Sunday. But i've been to Protestant church before in your country. So that's why I called it mass. Perhaps service or sermon is more appropiate.
Nope it was possesion. I'm very very sure of that. I still had my mental and emotional part of me under my control however my physical state was robbed of me. I couldn't feel my body or any part of my body at all. Nor was I able to see or hear anything aside from a shaman repeating the same mantra again and again: Olahzhong. I was freed at once after I cried out to the Lord. Don't tell me the shaman was being nice.
I don't believe that evil spirit could oppress me. Only men could opress and persecute me Flesh and bone. No devil could opress me. I'm a believer in Jesus and I'm a witness of Jesus.
The ones capable opressing and persecuting me are men.
I know that the devil is attacking believers in Christ. But the devil works through people.
One believer in the book 'The Torn Veil' put it this way:
He smiled and said, "Now you think about it again. When you give up what you will have to give up for Christ the devil will attack you. He will create a lot of hurdles for you to get over. There will be great opposition. It is even possible that Christian people will create those hurdles for you".
Believe me I know what he talked about. Very well. I'm even thinking to migrate out of my country permanently as Indonesia has proved very compliant to Singapore rulers. Too much corruption. They sell everything. But I'd like to wait until my grandmother dies. She will live to the age of 86 just as the Lord told me 4 years ago. She is now 84 years old. Then I hope God will give me the means to migrate out of the country. He gave me the means in 2006 which I didn't use.
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Originally posted by mamamamama:
Just like how he spent so much time grilling the Father over the definition of Exorcism and Prayer. Seems to me he thinks that he can better define what constitutes to an exorcism or a prayer, better than a Priest. Its like saying i can interpret law terms better than a lawyer. Ridiculous.
I'm sure the amateur goofed-up Bajwa knows that even someone without a law degree can interpret the law better than him. He goes round in circles, asking the same silly questions over and over as if hoping his stab in the dark will pay off. It reminds me of the SM's lying daughter who went on the offensive right from the start of her testimony. She thought that a good offence is the best defence. But the liar forgot the operative word is 'good'. When you just go on the offensive, on the contrary, it gives the impression that you have something to hide. Similarly how can Bajwa hope to win with his client's deliberately deceitful medical history? Did he think the defense would simply accept it without checking? Did Bajwa himself bother to check?! If he didn't, I ask him then Who is the amateur? Who goofed-up?! If he did check, then it shows his morals are as low as his clients. Either way he paints a bad picture for himself and will attract only a certain type of clientele. -
I am reading the posts and I realised that the Plantiff's Lawyer had goofed up by attacking the video evidences. What I saw in court that when challenged by the PI, the Lawyer got the time bomb exploded in his face. His attacks appears to be based on the lies fabricated by the daughter of SW. There was no sight of SW's daughter anywhere in the temple or the ang mo kio avenue 8. Please Pinocchio, we saw your nose growing longer. We saw your antics and how you dropped on your seat.
You better come up with more credible story otherwise the truth will envelope you.
Cheers to the patient video footages.. A picture is worth more than a thousand words
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The family isnt Catholic, the plaintiff's sister is not Catholic either.
So her siding with the church will come out with what?
Plaintiff will have money if the case suceed, so what would someone not sid with the family instead?
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Singapore Valli capable of overt deception, says psychiatrist 22 July 2008 Straits Times English (c) 2008 Singapore Press Holdings Limited A PSYCHIATRIST yesterday portrayed the woman at the centre of the Novena Church 'exorcism' case as being capable of 'overt deception' and aiming to perpetuate her 'symptoms' for financial gain. Dr Lim Yun Chin's assessment of Madam Amutha Valli Krishnan therefore flew in the face of the diagnosis given by her two doctors, who said she had post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Dr Lim, from Raffles Hospital, was testifying for Father Simon Tan, one of the defendants being sued by Madam Valli. The 52-year-old plaintiff claims two priests and six churchgoers forced an exorcism on her at the church in August 2004, an episode which left her traumatised. Her two doctors, Dr Ong Thiew Chai from Tan Tock Seng Hospital and Dr Angelina Chan from Changi General Hospital, both told the court that she developed PTSD with depression as a result of the incident. But Dr Lim, a past president of the Singapore Psychiatric Association, said he did not support this diagnosis. He said that Madam Valli may have suffered trauma, but it did not justify a diagnosis of PTSD, a serious psychiatric disorder. Dr Lim has experience assessing and treating PTSD patients and was part of the team that provided clinical support following the SilkAir and Singapore Airlines crashes in Indonesia and Taiwan, respectively. He had examined Madam Valli last July, together with another psychiatrist lined up for the defence; they both also looked through her medical history. He told the court that while PTSD sufferers often show a marked unwillingness to re-live their trauma, Madam Valli kept steering their conversations back to her experience in the church. He said it was 'unfortunate' that her family did not disclose her voluminous psychiatric history to Dr Ong and Dr Chan, because a person's psychiatric history is relevant - and more so for PTSD - to rule out malingering. The psychiatrist said he was convinced Madam Valli was capable of 'overt deception'. When he examined her, she insisted that she had an ideal childhood, that she had never been treated by a psychiatrist, that she worked as a staff nurse and earned $15,000 as a tutor. Referring to Madam Valli's ability to go into a trance-like state and embellish her symptoms, he said: 'I do not think her 'symptoms' will subside as long as she perceives she can secure compensation from her suit.' He noted that video footage taken by a private investigator - which showed her on various outings - contradicted her claims that she was too frightened to go out. He also pointed out that in her medical notes at Tan Tock Seng Hospital, she said she had wanted to exercise but was stopped by her relatives because of the court case. The notes referred to 'external pressure on her not to behave normally'. SELINA LUM
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*deleted
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How come no news about yesterdays' proceedings? I checked ST, New Paper, TODAY ...
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Originally posted by adetet:
How come no news about yesterdays’ proceedings? I checked ST, New Paper, TODAY …
A KIDNAP victim who had his ear sliced off.
Plane crash survivors who had to deal with the trauma, and families of those killed who had to cope with the loss.
Dr Lim Yun Chin, a consultant psychiatrist with Raffles Hospital, has treated them all and said they did suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).
But he said the woman who claimed that she was forcibly subjected to an alleged exorcism, did not show genuine PTSD symptoms.
Dr Lim took the stand yesterday in the exorcism trial.
Madam Amutha Valli Krishnan, 52, claims she was the victim of a forced exorcism at the Novena Church on 10 Aug 2004 and is seeking compensation of at least $250,000.
She is suing the Redemptorist Order which runs the church, two priests and six church-goers who allegedly helped in the ritual.
A former president of the Singapore Psychiatric Association, Dr Lim is a witness for Father Simon Tan, one of the priests involved in the case.
He is also a forensic psychiatrist and has testified in other criminal cases. He told the court he has treated survivors of the SilkAir crash in Palembang, Indonesia, and the SQ006 crash in Taiwan.
He also told the court he has treated someone who had been kidnapped abroad and who had his ear sliced off. He did not elaborate on that case.
Cross-examined by Senior Counsel Jimmy Yim, he said how accurately PTSD can be diagnosed depends on how truthful and honest the patient is with his doctor.
Madam Amutha had withheld vital information concerning her past medical treatment at the National University Hospital (NUH) and the Institute of Mental Health from her two psychiatrists.
He said in court: 'What she has withheld is half the moon.'
Associate Professor Ong Thiew Chai from Tan Tock Seng Hospital and Dr Angelina Chan from Changi General Hospital had diagnosed Madam Amutha with PTSD without knowing her past history, which the defence had argued was a wrong diagnosis.
Dr Lim said doctors can make a mistake with their diagnosis if adequate information is not provided.
In his affidavit, he said that meeting Madam Amutha convinced him that she was 'capable of overt deception' as she had claimed she had never seen a psychiatrist and was earning $15,000 a month from giving tuition.
He came to the conclusion that he did not think her symptoms will subside as long as she felt that she could get compensation from her suit. He added in his report that he could not support the diagnosis of PTSD as she had exaggerated her symptoms.
In court, Dr Lim said one way of knowing whether a person really has PTSD is if he is unable to recall the traumatic event as he would have been too dazed to remember.
The sufferer would also want to avoid it, he added.
But in Madam Amutha's case, she kept going back to that night at Novena Church to recount events that had allegedly occurred. She had also claimed to be in a trance state that night.
But after Mr Yim pointed out that she was able to recall enough details to make a police report on the incident, Dr Lim said: 'If a patient was able to recount events of her trance state, then she was not in a trance at all.'
FRIENDS FACE OFF
Dr Lim then squared off with his good friend, lawyer Mr R S Bajwa, who is representing Madam Amutha.
They have been friends for more than 10 years and Mr Bajwa has even engaged Dr Lim's expertise in previous criminal cases. This was the first time both men had been on opposite sides of the fence.
Mr Bajwa began: 'Good morning, Dr Lim. Looks like we are on opposite sides today.'
A smiling Dr Lim responded: 'Yes.'
But that quickly disappeared as both men later interrupted each other in sometimes heated exchanges.
Dr Lim stressed he was not interested in whether Madam Amutha or the Church was right.
He said: 'Based on both sides, they were engaged in warfare. It was beyond our mortal minds to understand. They were engaged in combat. Whether both sides were deluded, I don't know.
'But they were invoking the name of the supernatural to fight each other.'
But Mr Bajwa had a simple question: 'How did it become a combat zone when it was supposed to be just a prayer session?'
Dr Lim: 'The people at NUH knew that at the drop of a coin, she can go into a trance. The people in that room (at Novena) did not know that.
'They were pressing the very buttons that she could use to combat them with.'
The trial continues today.
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Thanks, mamamamama. When the trial first began and the ST gave an extract of her affidavit, I was struck by her laughing to herself and saying something like "aha, I got you" in reference to the priests. At that time, I didn't know as her sister and all the psychiastrists have testified that if you're in a trance, you won't have any recollection of what happened. What had struck me was it shows her insincere motives of approaching the priests for help. The "I got you" sounds like "you've fallen into my trap". I never knew it proved more than that. The judge shouldn't just dismiss the case. At the very least, the SM should pay the defendants legal fees. And I hope MOE is keeping watch as that son of hers should not be allowed to graduate as a teacher and have access to mold impressionable young minds.
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Originally posted by adetet:
Thanks, mamamamama.
When the trial first began and the ST gave an extract of her affidavit, I was struck by her laughing to herself and saying something like “aha, I got you” in reference to the priests. At that time, I didn’t know as her sister and all the psychiastrists have testified that if you’re in a trance, you won’t have any recollection of what happened. What had struck me was it shows her insincere motives of approaching the priests for help. The “I got you” sounds like “you’ve fallen into my trap”. I never knew it proved more than that.
The judge shouldn’t just dismiss the case. At the very least, the SM should pay the defendants legal fees. And I hope MOE is keeping watch as that son of hers should not be allowed to graduate as a teacher and have access to mold impressionable young minds.
Turns out that the defense lawyers got her instead. Too many loopholes and inconsistency for their entire family to cover up, each leading to one another being exposed and shamed. Too bad for her the cup can't hold the water much longer.
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Was at court yesterday but case adjourned to Mon as Bajwa on MC.
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So you saw his assistants? the girls are all so very pretty!
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mc! i hope not another chit signed by Dr Angelina Chan :) I went to court once but I didn't really noticed Bajwa's assistants. He looked quite comical so I didn't really notice anyone else. Also most of the time, the SM's daughter was there trying to action with her dramatic eye-rolls, shake of head etc. I was tempted to wave at her. With one finger.
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Originally posted by Sivam:
Was at court yesterday but case adjourned to Mon as Bajwa on MC.
MC? Adjourned?
Oh no! I've taken leave for today leh!!! Shucks.
Sivam, thanks for informing. I almost headed to high court this morning.
No wonder there was no news.
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Originally posted by adetet:
Also most of the time, the SM’s daughter was there trying to action with her dramatic eye-rolls, shake of head etc. I was tempted to wave at her. With one finger.
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Valli's behaviour not typical of stress disorder: Psychiatrists
By Carolyn Quek
TWO psychiatrists gave evidence yesterday reinforcing claims that Madam Amutha Valli Krishnan is not suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).
The 52-year-old is suing two priests and six churchgoers for allegedly forcing an exorcism on her at the Novena church in August 2004.
Madam Valli claims she was traumatised by the incident and has been diagnosed with PTSD.
But Dr Lim Yun Chin and Dr Ung Eng Khean, testifying as defence witnesses yesterday, had several quarrels with the diagnosis.
They said she was unusually willing to discuss her experience in the church when they met her last year. Dr Lim and Dr Ung noted that PTSD sufferers normally avoid speaking about their trauma.
'It seems as if a flick had been switched on and she was relishing the opportunity,' Dr Ung told the court. 'I would usually be the one to prompt them.'
He said in 20 years of examining patients with PTSD, including those who have survived natural disasters and have been raped, he had never seen a response like Madam Valli's.
Both doctors also said the behaviour caught on camera by a private detective was not typical of someone who had been traumatised. More than 700 hours of video footage showed her working out at the gym and going to restaurants dressed in colourful clothes and wearing make-up.
She claimed she was fearful of going out and being alone.
Dr Lim, when questioned by Madam Valli's lawyer Bajwa Singh, said that her actions on video showed 'gross inconsistencies' with the 'fragile' state she claimed to be in.
'Why would anyone show such normality?' he said.
Mr Bajwa said that Madam Valli has good and bad days.
During a sometimes heated cross-examination, Dr Ung was told repeatedly by Mr Bajwa that he was biased towards the defendants' version of events.
'Mr Bajwa, I am biased towards the truth,' Dr Ung said at one point.
The trial continues today.
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sign.. there he goes again. if he intends to argue it this way, then all testimonies and affidavits given by AV & family are also biased lor.. biased towards AV..
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Interesting so many doctors are "biased". Today's trial will continue with testimonies from doctors she saw and whom she tried to hide the fact from the defense. Biased? Or is it uncovering of more lies and blatant attempt to defraud! And don't forget the two who spoke in her defence said that she lied, they didn't know she saw other doctors, she exaggerated symptoms etc. SNAKY MALINGERER.
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Doc says: Not stress, but she was suffering from... Defence psychiatrist says victim of alleged exorcism has trance disorder By Arul John July 30, 2008 The New Paper SHE did not suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Psychiatrist Ken Ung said Madam Amutha Valli Krishnan was instead suffering from depression and dissociative trance disorder (DTD). Dr Ung, a senior consultant child, adolescent and adult psychiatrist at Adam Road Hospital, made this statement while giving his testimony during the Novena Church exorcism trial yesterday. Madam Amutha, 52, claims she was the victim of a forced exorcism at the church on 10Aug 2004. She is seeking compensation and is suing the Redemptorist Order which runs the church, two priests and six church-goers who allegedly helped in the ritual. *URGE TO TALK* Dr Ung told the court: 'A person suffering from PTSD has the following symptoms - persistent avoidance of the stimuli from the experience, being hesitant and needing prompting, and great trepidation and reluctance to speak of the experience.' He said he met Madam Amutha twice - on 29 Jun and 13 Jul last year - and each time, she had a strong urge to talk about her experience at the church, which he said was 'unusual' for PTSD sufferers. Dr Ung said that he based his diagnosis of DTD on her ability to go into trances, especially possession trances. He said she showed trance states every five to 10 minutes during the interviews with her and each would last one or two minutes. Dr Ung said she also went into possession trances, where she would show stereotyped and culturally determined behaviour or movements that showed she was controlled by a 'possessing agent'. He said in his affidavit that she showed such behaviour when she was allegedly possessed three times on the day of the exorcism - by the spirit of 'Koh Chee Meng', by the 'snake spirit' and by 'Lucifer'. Dr Ung said that during such cases, the possessed person could have partial or total amnesia, which would account for Madam Amutha's being unable to recall her strange behaviour during those states, such as moving like a snake. In his affidavit, he included several conversations taken from Father Simon Tan's affidavit where he conversed with Madam Amutha while she was possessed by 'Koh Chee Meng', a snake spirit and 'Lucifer'. (See excerpts, rights.) Father Tan is one of the priests involved in the alleged exorcism. Madam Amutha's lawyer, Mr R S Bajwa, said Dr Ung was biased as he accepted the defendants' version of what happened that day and totally ignored Madam Amutha's version. To which he calmly replied: 'I am biased in favour of the truth.' To back up his claim that Madam Amutha was not suffering from PTSD, Dr Ung told defence lawyer Darrell Low that based on previous medical records, Madam Amutha told her doctors the following: 16 Oct 2004: She remembered that six men were at Novena Church 22 Oct 2004: She said she did not want to forget that night and must win the court case 2 Feb 2006: She said she kept the skirt she wore during that night, a sign that she was voluntarily trying to keep the event in her memory 11 Aug 2007: She said that she wanted to tell the incident to the media As she had clear memory of what happened, it is unlikely she suffered from PTSD, he said
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I went away and came back not expecting to see the saga is still going on! The judge should just throw out the case, slap a hefty fine on the woman and jail her family who perjured themselves.