Questions about the planes of existences and rebirth
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cooooooool.Originally posted by Origami:Haha! I think u misread me. I'm going in Dec. We should all meet up and maybe u guys can tell me wat u guys want in India.
whoa this thread damn cheem. too many words... -
chimology..will try to digest.....Originally posted by HENG@:cooooooool.
whoa this thread damn cheem. too many words... -
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I've read through the link you've provided and frankly, with all due respect, I find several doubts about it. Is the explanation of human's origin and the numbers given directly by the Buddha Himself? The story about the "tasty fluid" suggests that humans were the first creatures on Earth, which is not the case according to existing evidence.
Only a few centuries ago, people thought that the world was flat. The Kalachakra tantra, a buddhist tantra from Buddha Sakyamuni, already stated that the world was round. It was so much later that explorers found out that indeed, the world was round. There are so much things in Buddhism that was only prooven recently.
Buddhism certainly supports evolution within the animal kingdom. Evolutions in the animal kingdoms, changes in geographical situation on Earth. Buddha said that throughout ages, land can turn into sea, sea can turn into land, land can turn into mountains, and so on. There will even be a time when all the oceans dry up and there are just plain land.
However, the Human realm did not originated from the Animal realm, instead, it's another way round. The Human realm is a good transition point to all the other realms, because in the human world, all sorts of karma can be created. I also personally do not believe that humans are an evolution from the animal kingdom, like what the website has said, I believe that it's a fallacy.
Modern science has yet to proove ghosts, rebirth, and definitely astronomers can't find the Heavens in their telescope, so they can't see the Jhanic planes nor do they believe in existence of Devas.
My point to you is - there is a lot of things in the world that has yet been prooven by science.
Throughout history, devas (heavenly beings) have visited human world, but think about it, why would they want to visit an unpleasant world like us to them? The Earth is probably like a very smelly and dirty toilet that you can find in third world countries or if you lived in the Kampong days. It's unpleasant, but those who lived there has gotten used to it. If we visit some countries the toilets, we will want to get the business done quickly, we will not stay long. This is an analogy given by my dharma teacher.
http://www.gbm-online.com/dharma/Science.html - Science & Light-Sound heaven
As for the so-called science, there is no real thing called science. People just made up the name "science" and called it that. It's actually just a body of theories. Is this kind of reasoning perfect or not? It depends on each person's perspective and faculty of understanding. Some people understand it. Others have not studied science before, and do not understand science. Does that mean the people who haven't studied science before lack that kind of reasoning in their own nature? No. Regardless of whether you've studied science or not, that kind of reasoning exists in your nature. You cannot say that if someone has studied science, then he has the ability to understand science, and if he hasn't studied science, then he doesn't have the ability to understand science. It's the same with the Buddha-nature; everyone has it in his own nature.
Science is only a small part of the Buddha-nature, and it is not a very complete kind of reasoning. You may say people are doing such and such research in science, and writing about such and such theories, but actually, those are just the upside-down attachments of people. They are as if "adding a head on top of a head." Having nothing to do, they look for something to keep them busy. Busily doing this and that, they never discover anything. They study science, investigating back and forth, but they never reach any real conclusions.
People become attached to science, thinking it's something special. In fact, it is all inherent in our nature, and you don't need to look outside. If you seek outside, you'll never find it. You may say it's real, but that's just the superficial. The real thing can neither be found nor spoken of. Basically, science doesn't exist. It's just called science because that's what we call it.
This article by Venerable Hsuan Hua is similar to Ajahn Brahmavamso's (the monk who was once a scientist) observation of many scientists, during his years in the science career, as being very "dogmatic". Ajahn Brahmavamso has written an article: Buddhism - The Only Real Science
My advise to you is, do not take Buddhist time calculation literally, there are many variations, but Buddha never gave exact numbers, but only a rough idea to the level of what he was talking about. You will read later on.- The universe is estimated to be about 11+ to 20 billion years old, while the Earth is about 4.6bil yr old. This figure is much greater than a complete cycle of the 4 stages(1.344bil). How accurate are the estimates of a "kalpa"?
Firstly, the statement that 1 great kalpa is "1.344 billion years" is a calculation by the editor of the website. I personally do not agree with this calculation to be taken literally because there's a problem with the Small kalpa - Each small kalpa is made up of 10 X 2 X 84000 = 16.8 million years, however, the number "84000" is not to be taken literally! And so, the medium kalpa, great kalpa and so on, are all affected because of the first calculation of the small kalpa. The number 84000 is used in several occasions by Buddha to describe "uncountable". For example, Buddha held up a cup of water, pointed to it and said something like... "there are 84000 tiny unseeable beings", which of course was unimagineable then but explanable now. 84,000 years could be 200,000 years, who knows the exact calculations? Only Lord Buddha knows through his wisdom. So, don't you think the lost years could easily be make up? In fact, there is one calculation by Ajahn Brahmavamso, he's a famous monk who was a scientist before renuncing. He calculated according to Buddhist sources that the universe is 12.7 (i know it's 12 point something, but not too sure whether its 12.7) billion years old, and that's very accurate to modern findings.The radiowave analogy can be easily understood. What happens if the intermediate state of 49 days are over and the deceased juz cant find any "receiver"? Will he get "dispersed" (hun fei po san) and cease to exist? Will such a phenomenon of dispersion even occur?
His bardo state will transform into a ghost if he were not to be reborned within 49 days, very often it's due to attachments, that the bardo could not reborn. It does not mean he cease to exist. He will still continue to be reborn in the 6 realms, undergo sufferings in samsara, until he walks the path of liberation.
In regards to the phenomenon of dispersion... this one, I cannot find anything in Buddhist scriptures. But from what I heard... after 49 days, the bardo will become a ghost and "disperse" into a messy form and then reform into a shape due to his karma. So if you have of ghostly stories of sightings of foggy ghosts, it could be the transformation. I don't know about this, because I've not witnessed.What do u mean by a "character"? What is "8th conciousness"?
Characters and the 8th consciousness are related. The 8th consciousness is like a video tape, it goes all the way back for kalpas and aeons, and it records things that happened. And then, you can rewind back and refer to the past happenings. It's basically our memory consciousness.
Our character is hardened through our habits, these habits (xi qi) will continue to manifest itself after lives if it has not been purified. So if you plant a bad seed into your mind, this seed may grow into bad speech and actions, and may cause further karma. But if you plant a good seed (e.g generosity, practicing 10 virtuous deeds), these good seeds will become your character too, and naturally more virtuous karma in future lives.
The thought manifests as the word; the word manifests as the deed. The deed develops into habit; and habit hardens into character. So watch the thought and its ways with care, and let it spring from love. Born out of concern for all beings... The shadow follows the body and never leaves. In the same way, as we think, so we become. - Lord Buddha[i]I understand when u said everything is not permanent, and everything is ever-changing, thus the mind and soul is not the same all the time. (hmm, i can't find the link to the story on the flames on the first and third watch)
Karma is a universal balancing law of cause and effect, each Mind, Speech, Action committed with intent will surely result in a consequence, with exception of neutral acts like e.g walking, that one probably doesn't have much karma.
Why is it then that the characters, karma and 8th conciousness gets transferred? There must be some kind of a bonding amongst these three, it is a "collection" of the three "elements" and it follows the "person" on to his next life. Rather, it is that which [i]defines the person.
Whatever happens from our Mind, Speech, Actions, gets registered into the 8th consciousness. This is how we usually get our dreams - during our dreams, during our semi conscious states, our minds reconstruct parts of our 8th consciousness into dreams.
As for what links are there, there are the 12 Interdependant Links of Origination:
http://www.onclipevent.com/archives/sugatagarbha/000384.html
* Dependent on ignorance (avijj±), reactions (saªkh±r±) arise,
* Dependent on reactions, consciousness (viññ±ºa) arises,
* Dependent on consciousness, mind and body (n±ma-r³pa) arise,
* Dependent on mind and body, the six sense doors (sa¼±yatana) arise,
* Dependent on the six sense doors, contact (phassa) arises,
* Dependent on contact, sensation (vedan±) arises,
* Dependent on sensation, craving (taºh±) arises,
* Dependent on craving, clinging (up±d±na) arises,
* Dependent on clinging, becoming (bhava) arises,
* Dependent on becoming, birth (j±ti) arises,
* Dependent on birth, decay and death (jar±, maraºa) ariseCan't it be said that the soul is a collection of these three elements? Even if they are ever-changing, they are still existent isn't it?
Buddha said that there is the 5 skandhas, but no such components as a "soul". If you ask me, I would say that there is the soul, the soul is our 7th consciousness. But the Buddha no longer has the 7th consciousness. The 7th consciousness creates a false perception that we have a fixed "self".
Also, you have to understand what the concept of "emptiness" is all about in Buddhism. In Buddhism, "Emptiness" does not refer to absence nor rejection. It is definitely not nihilism as some people may think. In buddhism, Emptiness means the emptiness of inherent existences, which means, nothing exists seperated from the rest of the world. For example, if you sit on a chair, does the emptiness around the chair reject you? If you stand up, does the emptiness reject you? It's our minds that make identities to them, but they themselves have no inherent existence on their own. All things in the world originates from Emptiness, they ends with Emptiness too. A watermelon was once only a seed (Cause). This seed meets with the conditions (Water, nutrients), and grow into the fruit.
So, all things are just causes and conditions, they are impermanent, they are interdependant with no inherent existences.Can I say that when a person dies, his character, karma, and 8th conciousness gathers on to a "new body" and his new life begins. At the end of this new life, these three elements (albeit being different now) will again gets transferred to another body?
Yes, they get manifested again in the body they are reborned.P.S> Is it true that all life consists of character, karma & 8th Conciousness? Are plants and bacteria considered life? If so, they would have these three elements too?
Plants and bacteria/viruses are considered life, but they are inanimate life, they do not have karma, they do not have mind, they do not have consciousness, and so on (all the things listed in the 12 dependant origination). They have the Dharma Nature*, but they do not have the sentient being's nature, they do not suffer nor are reborned in the 6 realms.
How do we know? There are a few methods to test. You can do a simple test. If you believe a bacteria has a soul, when u try to kill it, it should try to run away. This is the nature of all sentient beings, they react to the threat, and they try to save their lives, whether they are humans, large animals, or small animals like ants, or smaller ones which we cannot see. If the bacteria and virus do not run away, it is not a sentient being. I believe usually bacteria and viruses are too small for consciousness, thinking, to occur. It's made up of only a coulple of cells, how do you think that there are nervous systems?
There was once a researcher told my master that he was afraid he would commit bad karma because his works involves in killing a lot of microscopic organisms (bacteria/viruses). My master told him that it's OK.
* Dharma Nature: The intrinsic nature of all things. Used interchangeably with
"emptiness," "reality."Thanks again m(_ _)m
Welcome
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the 12 interdependent origins website doesnt work
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Are you sure?
I tried it on both of my browsers - Mozilla Firefox and Internet Explorer.
No probs. -
Which plane does the Buddha reside? Who resides in the highest plane, the 31st?
Update: Buddhas reside in what is known as the "Buddha Fields". These Buddha Fields are not like those 31 existences that belongs to Samsara. One commonly known pure land in the buddha fields is the one which belongs to the Amitabha, it is called the "western blissful pure land". -
buddhas still reside somewhere meh? i tot it is like asking where the extinguished flame has gone to
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Buddhas who reside in buddha planes are those who teach the beings there. Like, Amitabha is teaching those beings in the Pure Land the dharmas leading to Arhatship and Buddhahood.
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Extract from The Matrix:
It's not a very difficult concept to grasp. Actually, the last sentence should be changed.
Boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Boy: There is no spoon.
Neo: There is no spoon?
Boy: Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.
I can never understand that... Sad LOL
"Boy: Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself." should be "Boy: Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only your mind"
Meditate regularly on the heart sutra and you'll have an insight on it.
I did not understand Heart Sutra a year ago, nobody taught me about Heart Sutra, but after meditation I read a verse and was able to understand it. Perhaps, your mind has to be clear. -
In fact, once you really "understood" emptiness, it should be beyond ordinary conceptual understandings.
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then where does our gautama buddha reside now?
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He's teaching within our 3,000 world system.
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However, the Human realm did not originated from the Animal realm, instead, it's another way round. The Human realm is a good transition point to all the other realms, because in the human world, all sorts of karma can be created. I also personally do not believe that humans are an evolution from the animal kingdom, like what the website has said, I believe that it's a fallacy.
Did the Buddha Himself specifically say that humans come before animals? Humans couldn't have survived in the early stages of the young Earth, the air and envoirnment in general cannot support humans. On the other hand, the very first types of lifeforms are able to survive in this "harsh" envoirnment of the young Earth.
Modern science has yet to proove ghosts, rebirth, and definitely astronomers can't find the Heavens in their telescope, so they can't see the Jhanic planes nor do they believe in existence of Devas.
My point to you is - there is a lot of things in the world that has yet been prooven by science.
This is a very common arguement by people who are doubtful about science. It is true that science is far from proving Everything in the world. The important thing to note is - science requires evidence, it is not make-believe. Whatever that is still unknown to us will not affect the evidence that we have already gathered.
Current evidence point to the fact that mankind existed since a few million years ago, but not far before that. We couldn't have been around with the dinosaurs, and certainly not before them. This is in terms of 100s of millions of years before mankind.
As for the so-called science, there is no real thing called science. People just made up the name "science" and called it that. It's actually just a body of theories. Is this kind of reasoning perfect or not? It depends on each person's perspective and faculty of understanding. Some people understand it. Others have not studied science before, and do not understand science. Does that mean the people who haven't studied science before lack that kind of reasoning in their own nature? No. Regardless of whether you've studied science or not, that kind of reasoning exists in your nature. You cannot say that if someone has studied science, then he has the ability to understand science, and if he hasn't studied science, then he doesn't have the ability to understand science. It's the same with the Buddha-nature; everyone has it in his own nature.
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People become attached to science, thinking it's something special. In fact, it is all inherent in our nature, and you don't need to look outside. If you seek outside, you'll never find it. You may say it's real, but that's just the superficial. The real thing can neither be found nor spoken of. Basically, science doesn't exist. It's just called science because that's what we call it.
I think this is getting too philosophical. Yeah, I agree Science, like other names, is used as a term to describe something, so everybody know what the other guy is talking about... Will it be any different if another name is used?
I'm not talking about whether the reasoning is perfect or the ability of the common folks to comprehend the theories completely - coz they cant! You can't expect most people to even come close to understanding Quantum Physics because either we are too stupid, can't be bothered, or simply we don't need to. However, that does not take away the credibility of the theory! Some people just do not have the "logical" mindset required by scientific theories - they simply cannot comprehend logic or have a very hard time trying to. Take for example, writing a computer program - it is a very simple set of logical procedures. Yet, many engineering graduates I've known couldn't have passed without their friend's help. If writing a simple computer program proved to be such a hard thing for a graduate, how can u expect someone without good education to understand something as complicated as Quantum Physics?
- Everyone is different in the ability to comprehend.
- Credibility of scientific theories should not be undermined just because most people do not even have the ability to understand it.
- Scientific theories are supported by evidence. The only way to render it false is by the use of evidence which is against it.
- Science is not an imagination. The evidence can be observed by more than one person.
quote:
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Extract from The Matrix:
Boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Boy: There is no spoon.
Neo: There is no spoon?
Boy: Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.
I can never understand that... Sad LOL
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It's not a very difficult concept to grasp. Actually, the last sentence should be changed.
"Boy: Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself." should be "Boy: Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only your mind"
Meditate regularly on the heart sutra and you'll have an insight on it.
I understand it the way u do, juz like the words in bold. But i cannot agree.
The point is - not everything is imagined. If an object or phenomenon can be observed by several independant people, than there is reason to believe it exists. If further tests are conducted, it can be proven to exist. Since it is proven not only by a single person, there is enough reason to rule out imagination.
- the little monk in matrix did bend the spoon. Unless it is Neo imagining it or he was hypnotized. However, i doubt Neo imagined it, since the little monk knows exactly what Neo sees.
- The spoon is existent at that point of time. This is a FACT.
Characters and the 8th consciousness are related. The 8th consciousness is like a video tape, it goes all the way back for kalpas and aeons, and it records things that happened. And then, you can rewind back and refer to the past happenings. It's basically our memory consciousness.
If the character, 8th consciousness and 5 skandhas (??) follows a "person" to his next rebirth, then isn't this combination equivalent to an identity? It is what constitutes to "his identity".
Also, you have to understand what the concept of "emptiness" is all about in Buddhism. In Buddhism, "Emptiness" does not refer to absence nor rejection. It is definitely not nihilism as some people may think. In buddhism, Emptiness means the emptiness of inherent existences, which means, nothing exists seperated from the rest of the world. For example, if you sit on a chair, does the emptiness around the chair reject you? If you stand up, does the emptiness reject you? It's our minds that make identities to them, but they themselves have no inherent existence on their own. All things in the world originates from Emptiness, they ends with Emptiness too.
So, all things are just causes and conditions, they are impermanent, they are interdependant with no inherent existences.
Not thinking about it doesn't make the thing go away! It is true that everything is not permanent, but at that particular instance, it is a fact that the chair exists. Whether you take notice of it or not, does not make a difference - it is there and it exists.
How do we know? There are a few methods to test. You can do a simple test. If you believe a bacteria has a soul, when u try to kill it, it should try to run away. This is the nature of all sentient beings, they react to the threat, ...
So the important point is "sentient" or "conciousness" huh? However, it is indeed a very vague concept of "conciousness". Plants, bacteria and viruses can react too when faced with environment challenges. For example, viruses can mutate themselves to become immune to antibiotics, plants can grow to spread out their branches to try to get more sunlight.
Thank you. -
Did the Buddha Himself specifically say that humans come before animals? Humans couldn't have survived in the early stages of the young Earth, the air and envoirnment in general cannot support humans. On the other hand, the very first types of lifeforms are able to survive in this "harsh" envoirnment of the young Earth.
This is a very common arguement by people who are doubtful about science. It is true that science is far from proving Everything in the world. The important thing to note is - science requires evidence, it is not make-believe. Whatever that is still unknown to us will not affect the evidence that we have already gathered.
Current evidence point to the fact that mankind existed since a few million years ago, but not far before that. We couldn't have been around with the dinosaurs, and certainly not before them. This is in terms of 100s of millions of years before mankind.
Haha! If everybody started to posts such questions, I'll be very busy.
Actually the Buddha said that there are countless eons of worlds with countless eons of sentient beings during his time which was more than 2500 years ago. So, if we were to use reincarnation as the medium to transfer one's conciousness, then we can transcend into different worlds in different forms.
Let's say for example our world. Even before the creation of Earth, Earth could have existed too. ( A possibility ) So humans could have existed in that Earth. Maybe it was destroyed by wat, a meteor? Haha! Anyway, in our time, this Earth, the earlist lifeforms scientifically proven were not human. Maybe we were in another world or in another lifeform?
2500 years ago no scientist ever talked about UFO or alien life form. But the Buddha did mention lifeforms in different worlds.
I think this is getting too philosophical. Yeah, I agree Science, like other names, is used as a term to describe something, so everybody know what the other guy is talking about... Will it be any different if another name is used?
I'm not talking about whether the reasoning is perfect or the ability of the common folks to comprehend the theories completely - coz they cant! You can't expect most people to even come close to understanding Quantum Physics because either we are too stupid, can't be bothered, or simply we don't need to. However, that does not take away the credibility of the theory! Some people just do not have the "logical" mindset required by scientific theories - they simply cannot comprehend logic or have a very hard time trying to. Take for example, writing a computer program - it is a very simple set of logical procedures. Yet, many engineering graduates I've known couldn't have passed without their friend's help. If writing a simple computer program proved to be such a hard thing for a graduate, how can u expect someone without good education to understand something as complicated as Quantum Physics?
- Everyone is different in the ability to comprehend.
- Credibility of scientific theories should not be undermined just because most people do not even have the ability to understand it.
- Scientific theories are supported by evidence. The only way to render it false is by the use of evidence which is against it.
- Science is not an imagination. The evidence can be observed by more than one person.
Buddha is like a scientist. He has evidence to prove His analysis of things. Forgive me if I'm unable to give enough evidence since my knowledge is still limited. From what I've studied about mind and cognition, it is amazing what Buddha had comprehended during His time. Only during the last 100 or so years are the modern scientists realizing His theories. For this I prefer to discuss in person. If you really wanna know more just PM me.
I understand it the way u do, juz like the words in bold. But i cannot agree.
The point is - not everything is imagined. If an object or phenomenon can be observed by several independant people, than there is reason to believe it exists. If further tests are conducted, it can be proven to exist. Since it is proven not only by a single person, there is enough reason to rule out imagination.
- the little monk in matrix did bend the spoon. Unless it is Neo imagining it or he was hypnotized. However, i doubt Neo imagined it, since the little monk knows exactly what Neo sees.
- The spoon is existent at that point of time. This is a FACT.
Emptiness...haha! All phenomenon are empty of inherent nature. We would have to understand the workings of karmic imprints. Ok. Dun wanna make this post too long. If u wanna know, let me know n I'll continue on a new post.
If the character, 8th consciousness and 5 skandhas (??) follows a "person" to his next rebirth, then isn't this combination equivalent to an identity? It is what constitutes to "his identity".
Ok this is like karmic imprint. But gotta elaborate further.
Not thinking about it doesn't make the thing go away! It is true that everything is not permanent, but at that particular instance, it is a fact that the chair exists. Whether you take notice of it or not, does not make a difference - it is there and it exists.
Emptiness is not about not thinking. Many new practitioners meditate on emptiness and they think just to focus on nothing means emptiness. You just get lotsa funny thoughts invading your mind! Haha! Emptiness needs understanding of more Buddhist fundamentals to comprehend. Ok will elablorate more tonite when I'm back from work.
So the important point is "sentient" or "conciousness" huh? However, it is indeed a very vague concept of "conciousness". Plants, bacteria and viruses can react too when faced with environment challenges. For example, viruses can mutate themselves to become immune to antibiotics, plants can grow to spread out their branches to try to get more sunlight.
Thank you.
Hope I can be of help to you. You are welcome. -
Emptiness is perhaps one of the more difficult things to understand in Buddhism. I always emphasize that Emptiness is not about absence nor rejection, which is what people usually think of when they speak of emptiness.
In Buddhism, emptiness is the nature of everything. This is the nature of all things, you cannot imagine it, if you start to think or imagine, then it's not emptiness but something else (which you have imagined). That's the point. If you see things the way it is (without your imaginations and your conceptual thinkings), then you see it in its true nature.
I hope that in future Origami can answer your questions more... He's better at answering than I do. -
Ok karmic imprint.
Ever wonder why sometimes we learn certain things so easily? In Buddhism we classify this as imprint. This imprint is what we accumulate through our countless rebirths, be it good or bad.
Wonder why some people enjoy violence and some enjoy peace? All karmic imprints. This is a conciousness which follows one through all existence. That is why we seek the way to be liberated from such cyclic existence.
U can say it's like an 'identity'. As long as it helps u understand it better.
What is emptiness?
Usually people associate emptiness as nothingness. In Buddhism, emptiness is not nothingness. Just like non-attachment is not detachment. It is not getting attached to anything while at the same time able to enjoy it without having to do without it. Ok before I confuse u, let me simplify it.
We get attached to things we like or love. For eg. a dog, family, friend etc. So when we lose it we get upset. non-attachment means not to get attached to things as we know that all things are impermanent. But some may miscomprehend non-attachment as detachment. They think since getting attached to such things will cause unhappiness, they rather do without it. This is an extreme of one end. So Buddhism advocates the middle path. We understand that the nature of all things are impermanent. Nothing lasts forever. So we can accept it when something goes away for good as a way of life and appreciate it n enjoy it while it lasts.
Since we now know all things r impermanent, all things are originally empty of inherent nature. True a chair is there. It is always there. U see it. I see it. What is meant by empty of inherent nature means it appears as what we see, to put it simply.
For eg. we all know the color of blue. We know that the sky n the sea is the color of blue. We can identify the different colors. So we assume the nature of the color of the sky is blue. Let's imagine that the color of the sky is actually red. So since the day we were born n we can differentiate colors we were told that the sky is blue. We look up n see the sky n we label it blue. Ok. So I see it as red n I call it blue. Maybe u see it as green n u call it blue too. Then we see grass n we're told it's green. But I see white but I call it green cos I'm told so. N u see it as yellow n u call it green too. So all yellow appearing in youe eye conciousness appears as green. N all white appears as green to me too.
Why do we see it differently? It's due to our karmic imprint. That's why we all have different levels of understanding of things. N this also show that all things r empty of inherent nature. They appear as what our eye conciousness comprehends due to our karmic imprints.
Once we understand that all things r empty of inherent nature, we can then contemplate on emptiness. Before that it is best not to try. We just get confused n probably fall asleep in the process. 
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I understand what you mean by 'empty of inherent nature'. Yet I cannot understand about that part in the Matrix. The little monk had managed to bend the spoon - can we consider that as a FACT? This feat is witnessed by other people (Neo to be exact), it is not merely an imagination. Yet the little monk tells Neo that there is no spoon, how does that help a person in accomplishing such a feat (bending spoons with willpower)? I can imagine myself bending spoons and such but I cannot make others see things as I imagine isn't it? (unless I got some kind of psychic powers to mess up other people's minds Laughing )
As for karmic imprint, since there is some sort of a 'signature' that follows a person, it is essentially an identity isn't it? This is already one way to separate and distinguish one person from another, implying that everyone is an individual, a separate entity. Unless, you're telling me this imprint or 'identity' merges with others much like a drop of water merging into the sea, or that the imprint does not follow the entity and there is no way to distinguish a person from another? Why then, are we able to tell which little boy is the Dalai Lama in his past life? The point is, we can even refer to Buddhas by their names, suggesting individuality and a way to distinguish between entities. -
Err...is this question for me? AnywayOriginally posted by Poopie-Head:I understand what you mean by 'empty of inherent nature'. Yet I cannot understand about that part in the Matrix. The little monk had managed to bend the spoon - can we consider that as a FACT? This feat is witnessed by other people (Neo to be exact), it is not merely an imagination. Yet the little monk tells Neo that there is no spoon, how does that help a person in accomplishing such a feat (bending spoons with willpower)? I can imagine myself bending spoons and such but I cannot make others see things as I imagine isn't it? (unless I got some kind of psychic powers to mess up other people's minds
)
As for karmic imprint, since there is some sort of a 'signature' that follows a person, it is essentially an identity isn't it? This is already one way to separate and distinguish one person from another, implying that everyone is an individual, a separate entity. Unless, you're telling me this imprint or 'identity' merges with others much like a drop of water merging into the sea, or that the imprint does not follow the entity and there is no way to distinguish a person from another? Why then, are we able to tell which little boy is the Dalai Lama in his past life? The point is, we can even refer to Buddhas by their names, suggesting individuality and a way to distinguish between entities.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I think I did not state merging of entities.
I had to reread ur statement so many times to see if I had confused u in my earlier posts! -
no no, you did not state that.Originally posted by Origami:Err...is this question for me? Anyway
Correct me if I'm wrong, I think I did not state merging of entities.
I had to reread ur statement so many times to see if I had confused u in my earlier posts!
The merging of entities is juz one of the reasons how I think that separate entities will cease to exist. Much like we can't separate a single droplet of water when it merges with a larger pool of water.
If there is indeed a way to separate and identify an individual, then there is a 'self', 'identity', or 'watever name we call it' - a distinctive entity, isn't it? -
I understand what you mean by 'empty of inherent nature'. Yet I cannot understand about that part in the Matrix. The little monk had managed to bend the spoon - can we consider that as a FACT? This feat is witnessed by other people (Neo to be exact), it is not merely an imagination. Yet the little monk tells Neo that there is no spoon, how does that help a person in accomplishing such a feat (bending spoons with willpower)? I can imagine myself bending spoons and such but I cannot make others see things as I imagine isn't it? (unless I got some kind of psychic powers to mess up other people's minds
Notice that even after Neo was told to see it as Empty, he saw it bend for a while, but after a moment it returned - actually nothing changed. Neo is not a psychic, the spoonboy is. Not necessary everyone who had insights into Emptiness must possess psychic powers. ) -
I'm sorry, I did not change edit your message, I made the same mistake of replying your message by "editing" it. But I restored your original message.
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Yes. We are all connected to each other ultimately in the Buddha Nature which is pervading in all directions.Originally posted by Poopie-Head:no no, you did not state that.
The merging of entities is juz one of the reasons how I think that separate entities will cease to exist. Much like we can't separate a single droplet of water when it merges with a larger pool of water.
If there is indeed a way to separate and identify an individual, then there is a 'self', 'identity', or 'watever name we call it' - a distinctive entity, isn't it?Originally posted by longchen:
Hi Sangha,
I am in no position to say whether Pure presence is nibbana. I can only write from my own experience and understanding.
This pure presence is called Rigpa in Tibetan Buddhism. I am not a Buddhist in this life, but I was a Tibetan Monk of Nyingma school several lifetimes ago. That is why I still have a lot of interest in Buddhism.
About Rigpa, when we experience it. It is formless and empty and at the same time infinite and all pervading. It is NOT BLISS. Bliss is a samadhi state but it is not the true nature yet, it is still a state in the mind. I have bliss experiences also, in fact i have then now quite often outside of meditation also.
Rigpa is a presence of 'yourself' that is connect to everything in the universe. That is probably why the Buddha say that there is 'no self'. All is connect to all in the Dharmakaya. Rigpa is a part of the Dharmakaya. When in the state, there is no separation into you or me... We are all one thing which cannot be described.
However, I must say that even now, while reading this, we are already the rigpa. We do not realise this is because we THINK we are just the mind/personality. The mind/personality is a REFLECTION from rigpa. It is not the true self. If you understand what I am write, you may get a sudden awakening/realisation. And if the realisation is deep enough, your viewpoint or way of seeing the world will change.
Just my 2 cents... -
Originally posted by Thusness:
Indeed.
Hi Long Chen,
Yes it is possible. But as much as I would not like to say, there is no what, where, when, why and how. Sounds senseless but it is true. These are what Naturalness is not.
Nevertheless, the mind will be stubbornly attached to this current mode of knowing because to the mind, it is all there is. It seems to be a destined journey that a sincere seeker has to continue penetrate its own depth, till it completely exhaust itself and meet its own DEATH. The death of the 'I'.
The giving up and full understanding of the poverty of the entire thinking and analytical mechanism will allow the mind to rest itself upon nothing. Here karmic tendency arises and ceases as it is, no effort to struggle is made.
This is the time effortless knowing arise. A complete clarity of ISness manisfesting as pure Presence.
Seek deep into the depth of our own self, there is always this Will, Effort..etc. This Unwillingless to let go, to be.
Simply put, it is this that separates.
Lastly try not to find a sit in the body. The true nature fills all space. Creating a boundary for What that is neither within nor without will eventually prove futile. Presence finds itself in Otherness. The body has created the illusion of 'inward' and divides. We have engaged ourselves in too much analysis and lost our intuitiveness and directness. Since u have experienced the pure Presence, sense the 'I' that holds and let go immeidately.
Presense always IS.
Nice Chat
So from this we know that, whatever karma there is, or karmic imprints, One who is in the "Pure Presence" does not get affected by it. His True Self, or Buddha Nature, remains Unaffected. Karmic imprint is not to be mistaken as his True Self.
all things are One...
- Du Shun, Chinese Zen Master
the Mind creates all differences...
- Ma Ming Bodhisattva, China
In fact right now, our Buddha Nature is present (it has always been with us for aeons of our existence and rebirths), but we're not aware of it yet. Which is why Wu Ben, Chinese Zen Master said:
of all things
the most painful
is our Buddha Nature
imprisoned by the mind...Originally posted by Longchen:
However, I must say that even now, while reading this, we are already the rigpa. We do not realise this is because we THINK we are just the mind/personality.