14/5/2005 - #Buddhism - GalaxyNet IRC Network
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[00:12] * samsam has joined #buddhism
[00:13] hello
[00:13] hi
[00:13] i am going to take refuge tis week
[00:14] oic.. where?
[00:14] sbws
[00:14] icic.. good.. u have friends over there?
[00:14] * InTisLife has joined #buddhism
[00:14] u know sbws or not
[00:14] Singapore Buddhist Welfare Services
[00:14] no frd there
[00:14] Fu Hui?
[00:14] congrats
[00:15] yes
[00:15] i go on my own
[00:15] i took my refuge there like 12 yrs back?
[00:15] u mean there sbws
[00:15] yah
[00:16] under the previous abbot...ven yen pei...
[00:16] now it's under ven kuan yan rite?
[00:16] how long is there the history
[00:16] yen pei passed away rite?
[00:16] i think so
[00:16] kuan yan
[00:16] passed away like when i was in jc1 or 2
[00:17] haha
[00:17] i been to their open house
[00:17] almost like 8-9 yrs back...
[00:17] 1996 i think he pass away
[00:17] yah, 96 or 97, cant really remember
[00:17] medicine buddha's birthday is all i can remember
[00:18] * Deadmeat is now known as InTatLife
[00:18] ...
[00:18] * InTisLife is now known as LawrenceM
[00:18] lolz
[00:18] i see the newpaper they go take refuge ceremonry
[00:18] so u went to register for it?
[00:19] i did register aready
[00:19] quite a few other temples should also be holdin it this sunday
[00:19] u takin this sunday rite?
[00:19] congrats for truly becoming a buddhist
[00:19] yes tis sunday
[00:19] may u quickly attain enlightenment
[00:19] nut taking refuse at any temple is the same or not
[00:19] * InTatLife is now known as zombiez
[00:19] takin refuge at any temple is the saem
[00:19] *same
[00:19] not taking refuge?
[00:20] i dun know if i taken
[00:20] u need to take refuge to be a buddhist
[00:20] i see fuhai temple also have refuge tis sunday
[00:20] a good buddhist should also keep his 5 precepts at least...
[00:20] lawrenceM: u dunno?
[00:20] yah, i took my refuge at fu hai, precepts at fu hui
[00:20] did u remember whether u have taken refuge before?
[00:20] fu hui = sbws
[00:20] oic..
[00:21] i took twice i think?
[00:21] oic when?
[00:21] i dun know consider or not
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[00:21] when u take refuge u will also receive a certificate
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[00:21] har?!
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[00:21] is it
[00:21] yup u will receive a refuge certificate
[00:21] u took under which tradition?
[00:21] theravadins maybe dun have?
[00:21] got cert ?
[00:21] got cert one ar
[00:21] i tink have bah
[00:21] samsam: yah, fu hui will issue u one
[00:22] mine is mahayana
[00:22] mahayana should issue
[00:22] n ur dharma name will be written on it
[00:22] ic
[00:22] but i not really mahayana
[00:22] theravadin one, depends on the temple
[00:22] * ZeN`out sets mode: +vv LawrenceM samsam
[00:22] but most if not all chinese mahayana ones should issue
[00:22] take refuge and take 5 precept is it the same
[00:22] errr...
[00:22] no leh
[00:22] the 2nd time,i did it in a temple
[00:23] lawrenceM, on a special day like Vesak n all this?
[00:23] i though take refuge and 5 precept should be together
[00:23] with a monk/nun presiding?
[00:23] its during my job
[00:23] samsam: well, in chinese mahayana depends on the temple
[00:24] i attended a dunno wat eight forbidden thing
[00:24] cannot talk,cannot eat event
[00:24] can't get u rei
[00:24] Fu Hui will conduct both simultaneously but only those who wanna take the precepts together will take the precept ceremony
[00:24] NOT everyone will be takin the precepts
[00:24] some will only take the refuge
[00:24] oh, 8 precepts ceremony
[00:25] ya
[00:25] lawrenceM: 8 precepts
[00:25] but i personally dun believe in it
[00:25] in tat case, no cert is issued
[00:25] still considered taking refuge?
[00:25] for the 8 precepts i mean
[00:25] 8 precepts is practised throughout all traditions, theravada, mahayana, vajrayana i tink.
[00:25] but the 3 refuge should be considered in it liao
[00:25] not sure about vajrayana
[00:25] take refuge dun take precept , will it defeat purpose
[00:25] but mostly it's practised during retreats
[00:25] samsam : not true. but best is to take refuge
[00:25] no, becos not all r ready to take their precepts
[00:25] take refuge got different meaning from taking precepts
[00:26] for precepts, its a means to safeguard your blessings.
[00:26] u dont want bad karma.. u want to retain a human rebirth next time... keep the precepts
[00:26] i din really like it then
[00:26] so like for my case, i took refuge first, n then took the precepts only about 6 mths later
[00:26] lawrenceM: haha, i know wat u mean, i went for one myself too...
[00:27] zen : wat is the point take refuge , dun take precept
[00:27] i mean..after everything...everyone goes back to normal
[00:27] its just going camping for fun only
[00:27] bascially, the 8 precepts is only taken for 1 day n 1 nite
[00:27] "Taking refuge means to return to the Buddha's domain and to rely on the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha as our teacher."
[00:28] normally only the 5 precepts r required for laypple
[00:28] --------------
[00:28] What does taking refuge mean? In mandarin this phrase is made up of two characters: "gui" meaning to return to and "yi" meaning to rely on. From the aeons of births, from time immemorial, the Buddha-nature in each and everyone of us is an integral part of the Buddha domain. It is because of ignorance that we are departed from this domain and are caused to exist in the fire of the three planes of existence, namely, the worlds of sensuous desire, form and the formless, and to transmigrate in the six realms of existence, namely, deva, human being, asura, animal, ghost and hell. At times we are in the heavenly realm, yet at others we may be human, ghost, animal or in hell. It is like leaving the comforts of our home and parents to wander about as a vagabond. After having encountered a lot of difficulties and sufferings, and being helpless, we finally remember our parents at home and decide to return home to them.
[00:28] -------------
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[00:28] the other 3 r only taken for tat 1 day
[00:28] taking precepts is also important.
[00:28] wat r the 5 precepts?
[00:28] if u cannot attain enlightenment this life... if you want to be reborned in 3 higher realms next life to continue your cultivation, u have to keep the precepts and not go against it
[00:28] no lying,no stealing,no killing,no sexual misconduct,no liquor?
[00:28] Abstinence from killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lyin n liquor
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[00:28] yah
[00:29] u named it
[00:29] wow..i can rem
[00:29] i think i must stop lying
[00:29] ic
[00:29] samsam: anyway, when u go for the ceremony, most of the pple will not be takin the precepts on tat day
[00:30] or mite not be takin the precepts
[00:30] becos many of them mite not be "prepared" to take it yet
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[00:30] so some of them will only be takin the 3 refuges
[00:30] i think the them is take refuge and 5 precept . rei-shou
[00:30] wats the 3
[00:30] theme
[00:31] yah, san gui wu jie
[00:31] yes
[00:31] but the "wu jie" is not compulsory
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[00:32] u registered to take the precepts as well?
[00:32] all together one
[00:33] so i think both take refuge and 5 precept . i register
[00:33] my sis take refuge only recently
[00:34] oh, where at?
[00:34] zhu lin shi at rever valley
[00:34] but no taking precept yet
[00:34] zhu lin si? isnt tat at bukit batok/gombak?
[00:34] river valley is ju shi lin...
[00:35] at river valey ju shi lin
[00:36] i tell her info wrongly that she need to follow 5 precept. she take refuge only
[00:36] well, nothin wrong with tat
[00:37] she like to play mahjong, i stop her
[00:38] bcos i say she need to follow 5 precept and ten good deed
[00:38] 5 precepts and 10 virtuous deeds are the basis for a virtuous human rebirth and to attain plenty of blessings. it is also possible to attain the virtue of being reborned in the deva realms
[00:38] if u practise the 10 virtuous deeds
[00:39] but i need to explain clearly to her . cannot misslead her
[00:39] yes true
[00:39] u have to explain properly to her
[00:40] yah i think i need to explain if not i feel bad
[00:40] after taking refuge, being a buddhist we should abide by the 5 precepts, practise the 10 virtuous deeds and the 8-fold path.
[00:40] 1. Five Precepts: Refrain from killing, stealing, lying, sexual misconduct and consumption of intoxicants.
[00:40] 2. Ten Virtuous Deeds: Refrain from killing, stealing, lying, sexual misconduct, frivolous and meaningless talk, tale bearing, abusive speech, covetousness, ill-will and perverted views.
[00:40] 3. Noble Eight-fold Path: Right view, right understanding, right speech, right livelihood, right action, right effort,right mindfulness, right concentration.
[00:41] eight-fold path is the practise that leads towards liberation
[00:41] it's not a must...
[00:41] * outoutpek has joined #buddhism
[00:41] but the purpose of buddhist is to seek liberation
[00:41] attain enlightenment
[00:42] yah my sis want liberation
[00:42] instinct is zhi jue meaning straight awareness
[00:42] so tat mean i am right to stop her play mahjong and buy 4 D
[00:42] or immediate awareness
[00:42] rite?
[00:42] i also got play mahjong n 4d leh
[00:42] * ZeN`out brb - help my dharma friend
[00:43] but dun u think u building yr greed -Fat
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[00:44] hmm no
[00:44] when i play mahjong is just treating it as game
[00:44] n i buy 4d just try my luck
[00:44] invole in money
[00:44] haha, tok abt mahjong...
[00:44] i dun believe just game alone
[00:45] gambling is a habit that leads to ruin
[00:45] hmmm, well i've played mahjong w/o involving money]
[00:45] is greed of winning
[00:45] buddha strongly discourages any forms of gambling
[00:45] for a layperson
[00:46] so i think should abstain from gambling
[00:46] yes... u shld
[00:46] wow ...so much i have missed from 1 hr of tv.
[00:47] [00:47] i dun believe just game alone <---i can't change wat u believe
[00:47] samsam:for your info, Buddha also encourage layppl not to stay up late
[00:47] y r u still awake?
[00:47] i dunno
[00:47] my gosh u r not abiding to Lord Buddha's teachings
[00:47] bad bad
[00:48] arent wel all! haha
[00:48] i haven't read about that cannot stay up late.
[00:50] There are 6 kinds of channels to the ruin of property and life:
[00:50] which must be refrained :
[00:50] 1. One is not addicted to drinks or drugs.
[00:50] 2. One does not revel, oblivious to time.
[00:50] 3. One is not bent only on entertainment.
[00:50] 4. One does not indulge in gamblging.
[00:50] 5. One does not consort with evil friends.
[00:50] 6. One does not constantly laze around.
[00:51] these are the advices by Buddha on what lay persons should avoid... it is by no means a way to label someone as "good" or "evil"... but rather it is for our own benefit
[00:51] if one wants a ruined life, then one can live a life of ruin
[00:51] ic
[00:52] nite
[00:52] * LawrenceM has left #buddhism
[00:54] zen is tat mean my sis need to take precept sooner or later
[00:54] not necessarily . u can tell ur sister... the 5 precepts are means of safeguarding blessings
[00:54] if u can take them, then it's the best... the dharma protectors will be happy and u will attain virtuous rebirth
[00:56] ic then i will advise her to take precept later. mean time she can play mahjong and 4 D liao haha
[00:57] hahaha... well its not easy to convince someone to give up gambling... perhaps one day a wise dharma teacher would convince her to give up the habit... but still it's really up to her to make descisions
[00:57] * Light waves to friends here... time to sleeps.
[00:58] my dharma teacher has spoken about the ills of gambling.. she is personally against the plans of building casinos at the very beginning when it was first annoucned
[00:58] she is now listen to me not gambling liao
[00:58] gd nite thevoice
[00:58] Shhh!!! its now Light.
[00:58] keep meditating.
[00:58] we already know who u r lah...
[00:58] * Light has left #buddhism
[00:58] okok... well rahula is not around...
[00:58] lol
[00:59] one question, is it really a buddist cannot worship deity.
[01:00] zen, u wanna answer tat question, i've already answered it last time
[01:00] my house now got guang yin and betiy idol
[01:01] deity idol
[01:01] samsam... if u can convince that person not to worship deity, then OK. but if she is die heart wanna worship deity... there are some skillful means to deal with that.. eventually he will give up that practise too
[01:01] i tink i let reishou say lah
[01:02] i answered liao lor, so i wanna let u do the answering
[01:02] where??
[01:02] samsam: u worship the deities?
[01:03] maybe i also know the answer lioa as i read from the zen chen. yah ,y house got guang yin and deity idols
[01:04] many hell deities
[01:04] when u take refuge in the triple gems.... u have completely taken refuge in triple gems... then its best not to go and worship other gods and deities. triple gems are the source and guide towards your enlightenment. buddha is the one worthy of respect and reverence because he has surpassed all 3 realms... the worldly deities are still part of the samsara
[01:04] if u want to start practising buddhism... u have faith in buddhism.... then i suggest you can give up your deity statues to a nearby taoist temple
[01:05] haha, u think samsam will have a say if the parents still wanna worship the deities?
[01:05] but never put buddha and deity statues together
[01:05] is just my parent will not happy if he see me pray to guang yin only and not to the deity
[01:06] my parent pray to both guang yin and deity
[01:06] hmmm, one way out is to "elevate" the guan yin statue
[01:06] yah
[01:06] my guang yin put next to ancestor tablet
[01:06] not together with the deity
[01:08] maybe u have to slowly explain to ur parents
[01:08] wat about the heavenly emperor , cant pray?
[01:08] tian gong ah? by rite also not supposed to
[01:09] -> -rei-shou- one of the taoist god is actually lord indra right? but i cant remember which taoist deity is it
[01:09] tian gong aka yu huang da di
[01:09] -> -rei-shou- so is indra huh
[01:10] i think so
[01:10] but i see some temple is offering to tain gong in vesak day ceremony program
[01:10] u can pay respect... as long as u dun do superstitious things
[01:10] hmmm, r u hokkien?
[01:10] the heavenly emperor is Lord Indra... he is the king of one of the deva planes
[01:11] he is a helper in propogation of dharma
[01:11] that is why buddhists also got a space for him in the temples
[01:11] pay respect . pay with joss stick praying consider repect or worship?
[01:11] dont have to use joss stick if u don want to
[01:12] joss stick symbolises "Dao4 De2"
[01:12] if u are a person whose dao4 de2 is very high.... then u will outstand those who put josstick every single place in the temple and make the temple very very smokey
[01:13] useless rituals
[01:13] i tink the devas would rather have cleaner air than having every single person putting the largest joss stick
[01:13] but doesnt mean u cannot put josstick lah.. up to u
[01:13] ic
[01:14] then wat about ancestor tablet. still also can wrship
[01:14] u can respect ur ancestors... but buddhists dont "worship" them... ask toto numbers etc...
[01:14] but then, dun impose ur beliefs on ur parents, lest they feel objection towards buddhism
[01:14] hmm yah true
[01:15] slowly slowly try to change their ideas, example, can give them free buddhist literature to them to read
[01:16] rei -- tat is the point i am think to convince my parent later
[01:16] we dun "worship" our ancestors lor, but we respect them, w/o them we wun be here
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[01:17] whats past is past y u care about them?
[01:17] yes. buddha says we must respect our ancestors.
[01:18] tat means all is up to our mind to differentiate betw worship and repsect rite
[01:18] nub:cos we r humans, have feelings n gratitude, maybe you're not human that's why you don't care. worse than animals hmmm
[01:18] u can say tat
[01:18] nub: we must develope a mind of gratitude. thats the purpose
[01:19] tat's one place of contention i always have with my christian relatives
[01:19] esp during funerals
[01:19] samsam: u can say that... our mind is the source of our speech and action. but then u cannot use this excuse to practise superstitiously lah... like ask ancestor for this and that... or ask deities... hahaha
[01:19] u tink... use 3 joss stick,
[01:19] only dunnu how many cents...
[01:19] can get return of good fortune, good children, good blah blah blah..?
[01:19] u can say tat-----then my doubt clear . i dun worry my parent not happy lioa
[01:21] if one is a true practicing buddhist, one wun even ask the Buddhas n Bodhisattvas to "bao ping an"
[01:21] i dun ask for superastitous thing from the detiy liao
[01:21] yah true..
[01:21] ok
[01:21] good
[01:22] i think slowly i need to learn more
[01:23] samsam: we're all learning
[01:24] i mean i know very little
[01:24] i one is a true practising buddhist he should be out in the woods naked!
[01:24] if*
[01:25] know very little is ok.... better than know alot... then lost the innocence, become proud etc. if u know little... u can start learning... and also more importantly, start practising
[01:25] nub: nope... not all practitioners choose to go into forests and caves
[01:26] buddhism is not a religion of naked ascetics either
[01:27] ok bye time to zzz
[01:27] ok gd nite
[01:27] nite
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If you all have any questions about taking refuge, perhaps we can have a discussion here.
Driven only by fear, do men go for refuge to many places — to hills, woods, groves, trees and shrines.
Such, indeed, is no safe refuge; such is not the refuge supreme. Not by resorting to such a refuge is one released from all suffering.
He who has gone for refuge to the Buddha, the Teaching and his Order, penetrates with transcendental wisdom the Four Noble Truths — suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the Noble Eightfold Path leading to the cessation of suffering. [16]
This indeed is the safe refuge, this the refuge supreme. Having gone to such a refuge, one is released from all suffering.
Dhammapada Chapter 14 verses 188~192