My interpretation of Karma in its wide perspective
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Hi, I understand that everything in this world is somewhat to do with Karma.
Please correct me if I am wrong as the following is my personal view on Karma in its wide perspectives.
I believe that everything in our world system is a matter of cause and effect - 'Cause' bring about 'Effect' and this 'Effect' becomes a new 'Cause' and bring about a new 'Effect' and this goes on and on.
For instance, a guy going for a job interview. He misses the bus (Cause: bus driver caught in a traffic jam... Cause of traffic jam: Many cars using the road... Cause of many cars on the road: Ater office hours ..... indefinite possibilities and causes, let your imagination wanders). As a result (Effect), he arrives late. This lateness becomes the Cause as a first impression to the interviewer. In the room where the interview is being held, the environment might also affect the mood of the interviewer and this leads us to the people who decorate the room as the cause..... It just goes on and on... Eventually one little interview's outcome depends on so many causes.
Of course, the above is just an example. Many people could think up of different causes... but it is still somehow cause and effect.
Even the result of rolling of a dice depends on so many causes too:
1. Strength of the person who throw the dice (Cause of strength: Health - what he ate ..... Mood....)
2. The air particles around the dice (the location in which the place is chosen to throw the dice...)
3. The physical and atomical structure of the dice (Uneven edges.....Person who bought the dice....The place he picks....Manufacturer who made the dice....)
4. The direction of the wind (The location chosen to throw the dice.....The reason why the location is chosen.....)
5. The mood of the person throwing the dice affects the outcome too. He might throw it with little strength or more (Cause of mood: the people around him, the place, what goes on in his mind....etc).
6. Indefinite possibilities.
As a result everything affects everything in some ways or another and these everything affects every other things..... It could be pyschological, physical, environmental and anything one could think of..... There are just so many causes and effects and so much that we would usually ignore it... What we does now affect our future and others.
I would call myself "lucky" that things works out well. Not just because I play my part, but because everyone plays a part too. -
Yes, indeed.
Because samsara is endless and has no beginning, so is our sentient mind alike, the only way to liberate is to realise the nature of Non-arising, that which originally is. "Wu2 Sheng1 Du4 Zhong4 Sheng1"
Being a human being, no matter how life sucks, things already worked out right for us if we have the opportunity to practise the dharma. So cherish our lives no matter what.
Rare is birth as a human being. Hard is the life of mortals. Hard it is to obtain the chance to listen to the Dhamma. Rare is the appearance of the Buddhas.
- Dhammapada -
v. Good.
i also thought of a couple of analogy like ripples or a game of chess.
when a few stones are thrown into the water, each generate ripples, and ripples counter react and 'returns' back to the starters.
Another way of looking is the possibilty of moves changes in regards to the previous moves in a game of chess.
food for thoughts,
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Hello, this might be interesting too: http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=129929
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My interpretation of karma is this...
At a deep level, beyond the personality and waking consciousness, on a plane/Jhanic level above, there is a 'desire/intention' to understanding itself or 'how things work.'
Karma is a mirror/cause and effect 'willed' by this higher consciousness. This level (I think is commonly call Soul) is beyond physical death and therefore is not really concerned about the destruction of the extension of itself as physical form.
It is from here that the karma/intention is stored. Under most circumstances, destiny/fate will be played out to see the 'outcomes of things'.
If you can read/interprete your dreams, you can actually know what is about to happen soon. This, in my view, is because, some dream states are closely linked to this Soul/higher consciosness.
However, there is something call self-liberation. If I am correct, self-liberation dissolves the karmic thoughts as they arising. But one, must be in Presence in order for this to occurs. If i am correct, the arising thought must be recognised without identifying 'yourself' in it. That means the thoughts are not judged, but simply allow (because there is no judging) to appear, be recognised and dissolve as it arising. In a way, it is like consciuosness dissolving into consciousness.
Therefore:
karma being played out= discovering result after doing/action.
Self-liberation= recognising karmic pattern as the thought arises (non-action).
Just my opinion. -
Hi Longchen, remember I sent you an article last time? http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol8no1a.htm (Returning to the Quintessence of the Buddha). According to Buddhism the 'egoic self view' is from the 7th Consciousness [Klista-mano-vijnana]. When we (our body) dies, our 6 senses (eyes, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind) dies, without the 6 senses therefore the 6 sense consciousnessness (consciousness of Sound, Smell, Taste, Touch, Mind) dies as well. However our 7th consciousness Klista-mano-vijnana never dies, and according to Mahayana/Vajrayana Buddhism it creates a “soul”, an Intermediate state called Antara-bhava, otherwise known as Bardo in Tibetan. Within 49 days the Bardo will seek rebirth in the 6 realms of existence. However, for a liberated person, at the time of death he enters into the “Pure Abode of Eternal Light and Tranquility” (ji guang jing tu), otherwise commonly known as Dharmakaya. If he returns to Earth or any samsaric planes, he does not return as a Sentient Being undergoing the samsaric rebirths, but as a Bodhisattva out of Compassion and to attain Buddhahood. Even on Earth, one can experience Dharmakaya. My master spoke of entering the “ji guang jing tu” when he was too busy and tired, became sick and was unable to “control the body”. It was only later on when a thought arise that “I am in the midst of teaching the dharma now!” that he ‘came back’. At death with the conditions you will enter into Dharmakaya. The 7th Consciousness is thus “transformed into Light”.
When we practise the Great Dharma, we spontaneously transform our seventh mind-consciousness or “transient-invisible-body” into light. That light is the same as the quintessence of Buddha. When we stop breathing, our breath actually diffuses into space and becomes an integral part of space. Thus, if we are skilful in practising the Great Dharma, we do not have the “transient-invisible-body”. It is transformed into brightness and returned to the quintessence of Buddha of the Dharma World. This brightness is not the sunlight. It is also not the brightness of a lamp, but the quintessence of Buddha (known as ?? [Ji-Guang] in Mandarin).
The 7th Consciousness is very special. Usually when we sleep, our 6 sense organs and therefore the 6 sense consciousness are at rest. The 7th Consciousness however, does not sleep. It is very much alive and continues to dig into our 8th Consciousness [Alaya-vijnana], otherwise known as the Storehouse [of karmic seeds] Consciousness. All our memories, karmic seeds, etc, are stored within this tape-recorder-like Consciousness. The “replaying” of this “tape-recorder” results in what we call Dreams. And dreams have a lot of types, there are 10 types of dreams: http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=136527 Only bodhisattvas or Buddhas have no dreams. Even bodhisattvas have some dreams, but they are not sentient dreams.If i am correct, the arising thought must be recognised without identifying 'yourself' in it. That means the thoughts are not judged, but simply allow (because there is no judging) to appear, be recognised and dissolve as it arising.
Yes I agree with this. Not judging and therefore unattached, simply be aware of it. A sentient mind is like this: after one thought, another thought arises, and another thought arises and so on. It is continuous and never ending, because sentient beings are not aware/mindful of their thoughts. A practitionerÂ’s mind however, is of wisdom and not sentient thoughts. When there is a job to do he does it, and when the job is done, the mind does not continue never endingly like the sentient mind. He is completely aware throughout the process of doing his job. -
On the day of guru poornima celebrated on the 27 of July 2005 Sai Baba gives a discourse on Karma
http://www.sathyasai.org/discour/2005/d050721.html -
Sai Baba teaches about God, a view not shared by the Buddhists.Originally posted by YummyGummy:On the day of guru poornima celebrated on the 27 of July 2005 Sai Baba gives a discourse on Karma
http://www.sathyasai.org/discour/2005/d050721.html -
oh....Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Sai Baba teaches about God, a view not shared by the Buddhists.
I didn't known about this, I thought that the goddess of mercy and the laughing Buddha were all forms of gods -
Most religions teaches about God or gods. In Buddhism, gods exists, but are not worthy of worship. There was also the Mahabrahma who claimed to be God/Creator/Lord of All/etc, however he was refuted by the Buddha and later took refuge under the Three Treasures - Buddha, Dharma, Sangha.Originally posted by YummyGummy:oh....
I didn't known about this, I thought that the goddess of mercy and the laughing Buddha were all forms of gods
As to whether goddess of mercy or laughing buddha or other buddhas are gods, actually they are not.
They are both Bodhisattvas. The goddess of mercy, is actually not a goddess, but Guan Shi Yin Pu Sa (Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva), and neither was Laughing Buddha technically a Buddha yet, he is Maitreya Bodhisattva. He still has some time before he attains Buddhahood. Bodhisattvas literally translates to 'enlightenment beings', they are beings who are walking on their path to Buddhahood, and along the way saves sentient beings like us out of compassion.
As to whether Shakyamuni Buddha (and other buddhas) are gods, neither are they. Because gods belong to the Heaven realm. There are 6 realms: (3 lower realms: ) Hell, Ghosts, Animals, (3 higher realms: ) Asuras, Humans, Devas. However, Buddhas, Pratyekabuddhas, Arhants, are Beyond the 6 realms of Samsara. They have attained Freedom/Liberation from Samsara.
A brahmin once asked The Blessed One:
"Are you a God?"
"No, brahmin" said The Blessed One.
"Are you a saint?"
"No, brahmin" said The Blessed One.
"Are you a magician?"
"No, brahmin" said The Blessed One.
"What are you then?"
"I am awake." -
So when a Buddhist seeks enlightment what is he seeking for?
I thought one seeks enlightment so that he can merge himself with the supreme and not be born again in the world. Am I wrong? -
http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol8no1a.htmOriginally posted by YummyGummy:So when a Buddhist seeks enlightment what is he seeking for?
I thought one seeks enlightment so that he can merge himself with the supreme and not be born again in the world. Am I wrong?
You can read about this first.
There may be a little similarity between Buddhism and Hindu religion (which Sai Baba may be closer to), but we do not talk about merging with a Godhead. There is "ultimately" no Ultimate in Buddhism, since we talk about Dependant Origination. -
regarding the idea of "Primordial ", here's an Interesting article:
Dalai Lama's answer Philosophical questions on Creation:
Q: You have said that according to Buddhist philosophy there is no Creator, no God of creation, and this may initially put off many people who believe in a divine principle. Can you explain the difference between the Vajrayana Primordial Buddha and a Creator God?
A: I understand the Primordial Buddha, also known as Buddha Samantabhadra, to be the ultimate reality, the realm of the Dharmakaya-- the space of emptiness--where all phenomena, pure and impure, are dissolved. This is the explanation taught by the Sutras and Tantras. However, in the context of your question, the tantric tradition is the only one which explains the Dharmakaya in terms of Inherent clear light, the essential nature of the mind; this would seem imply that all phenomena, samsara and nirvana, arise from this clear and luminous source. Even the New School of Translation came to the conclusion that the "state of rest" of a practitioner of the Great Yoga--Great Yoga implies here the state of the practitioner who has reached a stage in meditation where the most subtle experience of clear light has been realized--that for as long as the practitioner remains in this ultimate sphere he or she remains totally free of any sort of veil obscuring the mind, and is immersed in a state of great bliss.
We can say, therefore, that this ultimate source, clear light, is close to the notion of a Creator, since all phenomena, whether they belong to samsara or nirvana, originate therein. But we must be careful in speaking of this source, we must not be led into error. I do not mean chat there exists somewhere, there, a sort of collective clear light, analogous to the non-Buddhist concept of Brahma as a substratum. We must not be inclined to deify this luminous space. We must understand that when we speak of ultimate or inherent clear light, we are speaking on an individual level.
Likewise, when we speak of karma as the cause of the universe we eliminate the notion of a unique entity called karma existing totally independently. Rather, collective karmic impressions, accumulated individually, are at the origin of the creation of a world. When, in the tantric context, we say that all worlds appear out of clear light, we do not visualize this source as a unique entity, but as the ultimate clear light of each being. We can also, on the basis of its pure essence, understand this clear light to be the Primordial Buddha. All the stages which make up the life of each living being--death, the intermediate state, and rebirth--represent nothing more than the various manifestations of the potential of clear light. It is both the most subtle consciousness and energy. The more clear light loses its subtlety, the more your experiences take shape.
In this way, death and the intermediate state are moments where the gross manifestations emanating from clear light are reabsorbed. At death we return to that original source, and from there a slightly more gross state emerges to form the intermediate state preceding rebirth. At the stage of rebirth, clear light is apparent in a physical incarnation. At death we return to this source. And so on. The ability to recognize subtle clear light, also called the Primordial Buddha, is equivalent to realizing nirvana, whereas ignorance of the nature of clear light leaves us to wander in the different realms of samsaric existence.
This is how I understand the concept of the Primordial Buddha. It would be a grave error to conceive of it as an independent and autonomous existence from beginningless time. If we had to accept the idea of an independent creator, the explanations given in the Pramanavartika, the "Compendium of Valid Knowledge" written by Dharmakirti, and in the ninth chapter of the text by Shantideva, which completely refutes the existence per se of all phenomena, would be negated. This, in turn, would refute the notion of the Primordial Buddha. The Buddhist point of view does not accept the validity of affirmations which do not stand up to logical examination. If a sutra describes the Primordial Buddha as an autonomous entity, we must be able to interpret this assertion without taking it literally. We call this type of sutra an "interpretable" sutra.
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[double post]
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Therefore, as Thusness have said, to fully realise Buddha Nature we must also realise Emptiness. Luminosity and Emptiness is inseperable.
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hi longchen,
just wish to correct a wrong understanding on kamma here. which you are holding on to.
"Karma is a mirror/cause and effect 'willed' by this higher consciousness. This level (I think is commonly call Soul) is beyond physical death and therefore is not really concerned about the destruction of the extension of itself as physical form"
this is not buddhism teaching. i do not recall learning something call soul/higher consciousness level. citta reaching jhanna is not equal to citta being in its original form as what you believe to be called soul. a good example was explain by ajahn brahm once using beach. on the surface our citta seems to be one single unit on its own. however upon investigation its actually fragments of awareness going on at a very face pace. similar to a beach. it seems like a long stretch. but looking it closer it is make up of lots of minor sands.
firstly, upon enterring jhanna. one loses all kinds of consciousness(all 5 senses) even at the lowest jhanna(1st)(i belong to those that believe as long you have 5 senses, what you experience is not jhanna). instead of saying it loses the conventional consciousness, its better actually to say another type of consciousness replace the conventional one. however this is not soul. no soul in buddhism.
"It is from here that the karma/intention is stored. Under most circumstances, destiny/fate will be played out to see the 'outcomes of things'."
this was similar to a question in the debate of the king milinda with the arahart. a good record which is worth reading.
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/milinda.pdf
the king ask if kamma is stored anywhere? the monk say its not stored any where.
its similar to a mango which is growing on the tree. we cannot say the mango is stored anywhere in the tree. it arises because conditions is suitable. if its not it will not arises.
do take note that most of the sutta in www.accesstoinsight.org is directing on the teaching of no soul. it seems you are holding a very far views from this section of teaching. -
Wow... so many post after a few days.
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Hi Eternal Now,Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Hi Longchen, remember I sent you an article last time? http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol8no1a.htm (Returning to the Quintessence of the Buddha). According to Buddhism the 'egoic self view' is from the 7th Consciousness [Klista-mano-vijnana]. When we (our body) dies, our 6 senses (eyes, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind) dies, without the 6 senses therefore the 6 sense consciousnessness (consciousness of Sound, Smell, Taste, Touch, Mind) dies as well. However our 7th consciousness Klista-mano-vijnana never dies, and according to Mahayana/Vajrayana Buddhism it creates a “soul”, an Intermediate state called Antara-bhava, otherwise known as Bardo in Tibetan. Within 49 days the Bardo will seek rebirth in the 6 realms of existence. However, for a liberated person, at the time of death he enters into the “Pure Abode of Eternal Light and Tranquility” (ji guang jing tu), otherwise commonly known as Dharmakaya. If he returns to Earth or any samsaric planes, he does not return as a Sentient Being undergoing the samsaric rebirths, but as a Bodhisattva out of Compassion and to attain Buddhahood. Even on Earth, one can experience Dharmakaya. My master spoke of entering the “ji guang jing tu” when he was too busy and tired, became sick and was unable to “control the body”. It was only later on when a thought arise that “I am in the midst of teaching the dharma now!” that he ‘came back’. At death with the conditions you will enter into Dharmakaya. The 7th Consciousness is thus “transformed into Light”.
When we practise the Great Dharma, we spontaneously transform our seventh mind-consciousness or “transient-invisible-body” into light. That light is the same as the quintessence of Buddha. When we stop breathing, our breath actually diffuses into space and becomes an integral part of space. Thus, if we are skilful in practising the Great Dharma, we do not have the “transient-invisible-body”. It is transformed into brightness and returned to the quintessence of Buddha of the Dharma World. This brightness is not the sunlight. It is also not the brightness of a lamp, but the quintessence of Buddha (known as ?? [Ji-Guang] in Mandarin).
The 7th Consciousness is very special. Usually when we sleep, our 6 sense organs and therefore the 6 sense consciousness are at rest. The 7th Consciousness however, does not sleep. It is very much alive and continues to dig into our 8th Consciousness [Alaya-vijnana], otherwise known as the Storehouse [of karmic seeds] Consciousness. All our memories, karmic seeds, etc, are stored within this tape-recorder-like Consciousness. The “replaying” of this “tape-recorder” results in what we call Dreams. And dreams have a lot of types, there are 10 types of dreams: http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=136527 Only bodhisattvas or Buddhas have no dreams. Even bodhisattvas have some dreams, but they are not sentient dreams.
Yes I agree with this. Not judging and therefore unattached, simply be aware of it. A sentient mind is like this: after one thought, another thought arises, and another thought arises and so on. It is continuous and never ending, because sentient beings are not aware/mindful of their thoughts. A practitionerÂ’s mind however, is of wisdom and not sentient thoughts. When there is a job to do he does it, and when the job is done, the mind does not continue never endingly like the sentient mind. He is completely aware throughout the process of doing his job.
Thanks for the reply... I resonate with what your master wrote. -
Hi Vamjok,
Thanks for the reply...
I am not a buddhist... I speak from direct expereince... you can say that i have assessed the karmic storehouse (commonly call soul in other religion). If you refer to Eternal Now's post, you will see that there is infact no contradition whatsoever.
The soul is just a concept... a name ... it just is... People may be speaking of the same thing but having different terminologies. It is in fact a very impersonal state with some 'overall' desires and intentions. Howver, it is not the Absolute... it is a plane of consciousness (that is, it is encased within a reflective layer of consciouesness)
basically, at least to me, the spiritual path is a purification process. The rebirth/reincarnation is about uncovering latent attributes. Once the attributes are discovered, they loss their power (of action) and is returned back to their essence. From pure awareness, to reflective form, back to pure awareness...
have you thought about this.... if the aim of all sentient beings is liberation. What is the purpose of liberation? Are there sentient beings in the first place, or are there just appearances of sentient beings?Originally posted by vamjok:hi longchen,
just wish to correct a wrong understanding on kamma here. which you are holding on to.
"Karma is a mirror/cause and effect 'willed' by this higher consciousness. This level (I think is commonly call Soul) is beyond physical death and therefore is not really concerned about the destruction of the extension of itself as physical form"
this is not buddhism teaching. i do not recall learning something call soul/higher consciousness level. citta reaching jhanna is not equal to citta being in its original form as what you believe to be called soul. a good example was explain by ajahn brahm once using beach. on the surface our citta seems to be one single unit on its own. however upon investigation its actually fragments of awareness going on at a very face pace. similar to a beach. it seems like a long stretch. but looking it closer it is make up of lots of minor sands.
firstly, upon enterring jhanna. one loses all kinds of consciousness(all 5 senses) even at the lowest jhanna(1st)(i belong to those that believe as long you have 5 senses, what you experience is not jhanna). instead of saying it loses the conventional consciousness, its better actually to say another type of consciousness replace the conventional one. however this is not soul. no soul in buddhism.
"It is from here that the karma/intention is stored. Under most circumstances, destiny/fate will be played out to see the 'outcomes of things'."
this was similar to a question in the debate of the king milinda with the arahart. a good record which is worth reading.
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/milinda.pdf
the king ask if kamma is stored anywhere? the monk say its not stored any where.
its similar to a mango which is growing on the tree. we cannot say the mango is stored anywhere in the tree. it arises because conditions is suitable. if its not it will not arises.
do take note that most of the sutta in www.accesstoinsight.org is directing on the teaching of no soul. it seems you are holding a very far views from this section of teaching. -
sorry repeated post
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Yes, there is no Self, Self is a delusion.
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greetings.
i see no need for further post from me on this topic since we both using 2 different souces of references. As you have said its of your stand point of view of things and not buddhism.
i see no need for you to convert you to acamedical stand point of buddhism anyway. to each of its own, may you be well and happy. -
May All be well.Originally posted by vamjok:greetings.
i see no need for further post from me on this topic since we both using 2 different souces of references. As you have said its of your stand point of view of things and not buddhism.
i see no need for you to convert you to acamedical stand point of buddhism anyway. to each of its own, may you be well and happy.
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Hi, the Consciousnesses present in Jhanas is presented in this chart:
The 8th Consciousness is still present in the higher jhanas, but the 5 sense consciousnesses is not present. -
Sorry the size is too huge, pls refer to this website:
http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/Yogacara/BasicVersesfivecons.htm