My interpretation of Karma in its wide perspective
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At a deep level, beyond the personality and waking consciousness, on a plane/Jhanic level above, there is a 'desire/intention' to understanding itself or 'how things work.'
Actually yes, as you can see the 7th Consciousness and 8th Consciousness is present in various jhanas, but it does not mean that the Consciousness is only existent on the Jhana level.
Karma is a mirror/cause and effect 'willed' by this higher consciousness. This level (I think is commonly call Soul) is beyond physical death and therefore is not really concerned about the destruction of the extension of itself as physical form.
The 7th and 8th Consciousness continues to function with or without Jhana. Just like it's not right to say that our 7th consciousness is "on the sleeping plane/level" just bcos it is present in our sleep.
p.s these consciousness are Dual consciousness, to go beyond duality one must transform consciousness into Pure Awareness (non-dual) -
[deleted: obscene image by spammer.]
p.s who is the right person to complain this matter to? - An Eternal Now -
oops, I have restored your message. edited by accident - AEN
Hi Eternal Now,
You are absolute right... sorry for the loose usage of the word 'Jhana'
However, my understanding of pure awareness has somewhat changed... It appears that there is no going towards/no movement... there is only the appearance of movement...
I have sort of sum up how i feel below...
Is there really an observer and the being observed. Or it is just a thought of observing.
Is there really outer and inner space. Or are there just thoughts of outer and inner?
Are there things out there or are there just illusionary appearances of things?
Could it be that out of the unknowingness... perceptions are percieved as 'other and outer', when in fact there is no substantial/solid outer/inner, me/you, observer/being observed and duality.
That all that is is just of an illusionary dream caused by unknowingness and seeing reflections manifested by this unknowingness, yet believing them to be all-real.
From this view, there is no separation into things .. There is no duality in the first place. There is only the illusion of duality. -
Yes, there is indeed no inner or outer, observer or observed, the inner or outer is a perspective due to our "ego-view" of the 7th consciousness. Consciousness = duality/seperation. In fact things are empty, dependant originated. No substantial existence.
BTW, Below is some of the irc conversations with Sangha. He hasnt seen Sangha online these days, not sure where he's been.
On 03 June 2005:
[22:49] emptiness is not noneness
[22:49] to understand emptiness, one must understand form
[22:50] to experience thusness, one must understand emptiness
[22:50] for thusness and emptiness - can't be explain by words
[22:58] I entered absolute stillness just now
[22:59] jhana that attained without one-pointiness
[22:59] dunno how to explain it
[23:01] jhana can be attained without one-pointiness
[23:03] and the jhana is stronger than one pointiness
[23:03] cause u r doing guan zi zai*
*guan zi zai pu sa is found in Heart Sutra
[23:05] observe urself and mindful of it
[23:05] jhana will arise
[23:05] and there will be clarity
[23:12] when mind and surround become 1
[23:13] I understood and experience object and subject as one
[23:19] the mindfulness toward external turned to within
[23:20] oic.. then is it like 'pure presence' described by longchen ?
[23:20] something more
[23:20] like
[23:20] understand nama and rupa
[23:21] oic
[23:21] and clearly sorted out what is nama and rupa
[23:22] Who was enlightened when the cup broke?
More recently however, on 18 July 2005, after coming back from Metta Retreat he had new insights on Emptiness.
[21:02] I saw that in my meditation, that was what I realised in Metta retreat
[21:02] The Venerable gave me the clue in the retreat
[21:02] ok. tell me what u realised
[21:03] Yin Yuan
[21:03] The rising and falling phenomenon, all yin yuan come and go, thus emptiness.
[21:04] One must understand the meaning of existence b4 understand emptiness
[21:05] When one sees the rising and falling, will understand the impermananant and the no-self by experience.
[21:05] and not to see things as present only
[21:05] there is a cause and there is also an effect to all things
[21:06] u see urself. What r the yin yuan that brought u together?
[21:08] when u realise the emptiness of things, there will not be a need to attach and aversion for things as for now as all are emptiness
also,
[21:09] I found something after my retreat.
[21:09] I have no feeling to gd and bad things that happened
[21:09] only got one feeling as at of now
[21:10] what?
[21:10] uppeka
[21:10] equanimity?
[21:10] yes
[21:10] meaning treating all things as the same?
[21:10] yes
[21:10] oh... icic
[21:10] do u still get angry?
[21:10] my friend told me today, "hey, the person that u dun like has resigned"
[21:11] u wanna know my reaction?
[21:11] what
[21:11] I am not feeling on it. Neither happy nor sad
[21:11] anger? No yet since I am out of retreat -
Could it be that out of the unknowingness... perceptions are percieved as 'other and outer', when in fact there is no substantial/solid outer/inner, me/you, observer/being observed and duality.
This 'unknowingness' is probably what Buddhism calls Ignorance, the root cause for the samsaric Interdependant Origination -
(1) ignorance, (2) volition, (3) consciousness, (4) name and form, (5) the six sense spheres, (6) contact, (7) feeling, (8 ) craving, (9) clinging, (10) becoming, (11) birth, and (12) old age and death. -
I think so too.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:This 'unknowingness' is probably what Buddhism calls Ignorance, the root cause for the samsaric Interdependant Origination -
.
In anycase, my realisations are not deep enough... it will take much 'discovery' and experiences...
regards
simpo/longchen -
I see. Do share with us if you had any new insights
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I am getting these feelings/intuitions (written below)... This may explain why there is samsara...
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In the beginning(of 'time')... there is just a great undifferentiated awareness... but this awareness is not aware of itself.
Then comes the enfoldment (encasing within a sense of self 'I" ), creating references for the beginning of the understanding of itself through reflections. Here is where all the myriad 'things' and appearances are created.
But... then... these things do not really fully understand themselves as the great awareness yet. There is a duality in perception.That is these thing believe what they see as all-real, not realising that there are just reflections of the original undifferentiated awareness. But this duality is a necessary process/stage for creating references for the expression of the great awareness. This is samsara
Gradually, some of these things (as human or other advance lifeforms) realise themselves as the great awareness and begin the unfoldment/unwrapping (beyond the individual sense of self). From here, we can see that realisation need the right condition and the right form of body. .. because the right form of body will determine the necessary intelligence and abilty for understanding. Lower lifeform such as fish will never be able to understand/realise because the brain is simply not designed that way... yet.
So... there is 3 process here..
1. Undifferentiated awareness
2. Enfoldment creating reflections and forms, which are expressions for understanding self.
3. Unfoldment/unwrapping or realisation of what really is.
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THIS IS MY INTUITION ONLY... READ WITH DISCERNMENT PLEASE... -
In Interdependant Origination, there is no 'beginning of time'. Samsara has no beginning nor ending. Everything is interdependant arising/ceasing. Pls refer: http://www.khandro.net/doctrine_12links_DLbk1.htmOriginally posted by longchen:I am getting these feelings/intuitions (written below)... This may explain why there is samsara...
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In the beginning(of 'time')... there is just a great undifferentiated awareness... but this awareness is not aware of itself.
Then comes the enfoldment (encasing within a sense of self 'I" ), creating references for the beginning of the understanding of itself through reflections. Here is where all the myriad 'things' and appearances are created.
But... then... these things do not really fully understand themselves as the great awareness yet. There is a duality in perception.That is these thing believe what they see as all-real, not realising that there are just reflections of the original undifferentiated awareness. But this duality is a necessary process/stage for creating references for the expression of the great awareness. This is samsara
Gradually, some of these things (as human or other advance lifeforms) realise themselves as the great awareness and begin the unfoldment/unwrapping (beyond the individual sense of self). From here, we can see that realisation need the right condition and the right form of body. .. because the right form of body will determine the necessary intelligence and abilty for understanding. Lower lifeform such as fish will never be able to understand/realise because the brain is simply not designed that way... yet.
So... there is 3 process here..
1. Undifferentiated awareness
2. Enfoldment creating reflections and forms, which are expressions for understanding self.
3. Unfoldment/unwrapping or realisation of what really is.
----------
THIS IS MY INTUITION ONLY... READ WITH DISCERNMENT PLEASE...
Also, samsara is not really one thing, but all the 12 interdependant links. It literally means 'world of suffering'. Ignorance/duality is only part of it. -
It is always very easy to quote from text... but it is very difficult to break out of conceptualisation.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:In Interdependant Origination, there is no 'beginning of time'. Samsara has no beginning nor ending. Everything is interdependant arising/ceasing. Pls refer: http://www.khandro.net/doctrine_12links_DLbk1.htm
Also, samsara is not really one thing, but all the 12 interdependant links. It literally means 'world of suffering'. Ignorance/duality is only part of it.
Words... they can only describe that much... Trying to work the brain at analysing truth from words.. is like trying to tell the mind to stop thinking... it will never work.
I suggest you do not be too caught up with words... they will not lead anywhere by round and round in circle.
It is like.. when one first try to meditate and reach a good level. The next time round, he/she will never get it again. And he/she wanders why? This is because .. the first time round there was NO concept of what to expect. The second time round, there is an expectation... and the expectation will block the experience. Expectation IS conceptual thinking.
PS: in the future, you will see me write less and less... This is because there will be less and less urge to do so, as I recognised karmic patterns/thoughts more and more. -
Very true...
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BRAVO! Your on the right track!Originally posted by longchen:It is always very easy to quote from text... but it is very difficult to break out of conceptualisation.
Words... they can only describe that much... Trying to work the brain at analysing truth from words.. is like trying to tell the mind to stop thinking... it will never work.
I suggest you do not be too caught up with words... they will not lead anywhere by round and round in circle.
It is like.. when one first try to meditate and reach a good level. The next time round, he/she will never get it again. And he/she wanders why? This is because .. the first time round there was NO concept of what to expect. The second time round, there is an expectation... and the expectation will block the experience. Expectation IS conceptual thinking.
PS: in the future, you will see me write less and less... This is because there will be less and less urge to do so, as I recognised karmic patterns/thoughts more and more.
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Very interesting discussions here. I think the original cause of samsara is one of the most important factors in understanding the Buddha Dharma. So please allow me to join your discussion.
This 'unknowingness' is probably what Buddhism calls Ignorance, the root cause for the samsaric Interdependant Origination -
Very true! ThatÂ’s what the Buddha had realized when he was enlightened.
(1) ignorance, (2) volition, (3) consciousness, (4) name and form, (5) the six sense spheres, (6) contact, (7) feeling, (8 ) craving, (9) clinging, (10) becoming, (11) birth, and (12) old age and death.I am getting these feelings/intuitions (written below)... This may explain why there is samsara...
Very true also! And even better if you are writing from your own experience.
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In the beginning(of 'time')... there is just a great undifferentiated awareness... but this awareness is not aware of itself.
Then comes the enfoldment (encasing within a sense of self 'I" ), creating references for the beginning of the understanding of itself through reflections. Here is where all the myriad 'things' and appearances are created.
But... then... these things do not really fully understand themselves as the great awareness yet. There is a duality in perception.That is these thing believe what they see as all-real, not realising that there are just reflections of the original undifferentiated awareness. But this duality is a necessary process/stage for creating references for the expression of the great awareness. This is samsara
Gradually, some of these things (as human or other advance lifeforms) realise themselves as the great awareness and begin the unfoldment/unwrapping (beyond the individual sense of self). From here, we can see that realisation need the right condition and the right form of body. .. because the right form of body will determine the necessary intelligence and abilty for understanding. Lower lifeform such as fish will never be able to understand/realise because the brain is simply not designed that way... yet.
So... there is 3 process here..
1. Undifferentiated awareness
2. Enfoldment creating reflections and forms, which are expressions for understanding self.
3. Unfoldment/unwrapping or realisation of what really is.
However, both statements failed to explain why and how ignorance or enfoldment was initiated? Once I was told the reason is:
LOVE!
ItÂ’s not from my own experience so I canÂ’t detail it. But I get the rough idea that it has something to do with the degradation from unconditioned love to conditioned love. And I think if someone remembers how he got on Earth at the first place, it may help to clarify the problem. -
Regarding the Beginning:
In the Wei Shi Consciousness-only School, each of our eight consciousnesses is also classified into Mutual-division (form)‘Š•ª, Observing-division Œ©•ª, Self-verifying-division Ž©æš•ª(aka a confused Buddhanature) and Verifying Self-verifying-division暎©æš•ª (aka True Mind or Enlightened Buddha Nature). Manas Consciousness ––“ߎ¯ attach to a self, due to the "observing-division" of the Alaya Consciousness ˆ¢û®–뎯. The Self-verifying-division and Verifying Self-verifying-division are mutually related. If the Self-verifying-division is an Object of Operation, the Verifying Self-verifying-division becomes the Operative. And vice versa. Existence actually does not hold a 'self', but due to a strong attachment of "self" in the deluded Manas Consciousness, it truly become a self and that of self-possessions/views. Alaya (8th) is the container of the lower 7, as all the karmic seeds of the lower 7 go back to the 8th. If we can realize that the root-self, instrumental world and karmic seeds are just projections of the Thus Come One, Tathagatagarbha, and that all phenomenon are like dream/delusions, and not self can attain, then all will return to Tathagatagarbha.
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i can't paste too much chinese texts. but if one can read, below is the reference:
http://www.dharma.com.tw/X1Chinese/D33SProb/P494.htm
http://maitreya.sun.net.tw:6666/c07/3.htm
http://www.buddhanet.com.tw/gem/ggz-c2.htm
there's a Good analogy. When your pair of eyes see another set of eyes, you can only see the outside appearance of others' eyes and NOT what the other set of eyes can see. So on the perspective of your eyes, the other eyes is only the image of your eyes.
thus learn,
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See if Shurangama Sutra state about the beginning:
QUOTE
The Buddha said to �nanda, "From beginning less time onward, all living beings and in all kinds of upside down ways, have created seeds of karma which naturally run their course, like the aksha cluster.
"The reason that cultivators cannot accomplish unsurpassed Bodhi, but instead reach the level of Hearers or of those enlightened to conditions, or become accomplished in externalist ways as heaven-dwellers or as demon kings or as members of the demonsÂ’ retinues
is that they do not know the two fundamental roots and so are mistaken and confused in their cultivation. They are like one who cooks sand in the hope of creating savory delicacies. They may do so for as many eons as there are motes of dust, but in the end they will not obtain what they want.
"What are the two? �nanda, the first is the root of beginning less birth and death, which is the mind that seizes upon conditions and that you and all living beings now make use of, taking it to be your own nature.
"The second is the primal pure substance of beginning less Bodhi Nirvana. It is the primal bright essence of consciousness that can bring forth all conditions. Due to these conditions, you consider it to be lost.
"Having lost sight of that original brightness, although beings use it to the end of their days, they are unaware of it, and unintentionally enter the various destinies.
"�nanda, now you wish to know about the path of shamatha with the hope of quitting birth and death. I will now question you further."......
"All of you good people, I have often said that all conditions that bring about forms and the mind as well as dharmas pertaining to the mind and all the conditioned dharmas are manifestations of the mind only. Your bodies and your minds all appear within the wonder of the bright, true, essential, magnificent mind.
http://www.buddhistinformation.com/shurangama_sutra.htm
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Originally, sentient beings and the quintessence of Buddha were the same in pureness and brightness. However, when the conditions for the initiation of ignorance begin to fan like the wind, it eventually produces ignorance. The ignorance becomes more serious as it gathers momentum and leads to the transmigration in the Six Realms. Ignorance, just like the wind, is invisible and one may not be able to touch them, yet it packs with power so immense that it can destroy houses and uproot trees.
In the beginning when sentient beings started to transmigrate in the Six Realms, they were in the realm of Heaven. Then, they descended to the Human realm. Human beings have seven types of emotion and six types of lust and because of these they continually commit negative karma. These led them to descend to the realm of Asura. Why is the realm of Asura considered to be a good realm? It is because even heavenly beings can be inflicted by ignorance, causing them to fight among themselves. The more aggressive fighters eventually descend to the realm of Asura.
http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol8no1a.htm
And yes indeed, not everyone can understand the dharma so consider ourselves lucky that we can. It is the Human Realm that is most suitable to understand dharma.From The Debate of King Milinda
Interesting to note that the youngest age to attain awakening is 7 years old, and my friend Vamjok mentions that he remembered 2 instances in the scripture which there were 7 year old novice attaining Arhantship.
QUOTE
27. Can Everyone Understand the Dhamma?
“Do all those who practise correctly attain insight into the Dhamma or are
there some who do not?”
“There can be no attaining of insight for those who, though they practise
correctly, are animals, hungry ghosts, holders of wrong views, frauds (kuhaka)
matricides, patricides, murderers of Arahants, schismatics, shedders of the blood
of a Tathāgata, in the robes by theft, gone over to another sect, violators of
nuns, concealing an offence entailing a meeting of the Order, sexual deviants
(pandaka) and hermaphrodites (ubhatobyañjaka). Neither is a child under seven
years of age able to realise the Dhamma.”
“What is the reason that a child under seven years of age is unable to attain
insight? For a child is pure in mind and should be ready to realise the Dhamma.”
“If a child under seven, O king, could feel desire for things leading to desire,
hatred for things arousing hatred, could be fooled by misleading things and could
distinguish between wholesomeness and unwholesomeness then insight might
be possible for him. However, the mind of a child under seven, O king, is feeble
and the unconditioned element of nibbāna is weighty and profound. Therefore,
O king, although he practised correctly, a child of under seven could not realise
the Dhamma.”