How to know whether a person has reach enlightenment?
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How to know whether a person has reach enlightenment?
Got any test/method to certify?
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It's not very easy for normal people to see, but by intuition we can tell a little bit about the person. Sometimes some people have certain level of realisations, but it is only a glimpse. My dharma teacher told us that having a 'glimpse' of the true nature is only the start - from that point onwards we must strive to clean the entire mirror (likened to our mind) such that there is no more dust on it, and true nature becomes totally manifest.
Thus learnt from my friend Thusness: Those who have true realisation of the true nature will be beyond doubt - because it is more real than real. Enlightened people will definitely know. Unenlightened people can only tell from "signs". -
As for tests/methods to certify, enlightened masters will know. For example, Zen masters would pass on his 'lineage' only to enlightened people.
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What "signs" ?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:It's not very easy for normal people to see, but by intuition we can tell a little bit about the person. Sometimes some people have certain level of realisations, but it is only a glimpse. My dharma teacher told us that having a 'glimpse' of the true nature is only the start - from that point onwards we must strive to clean the entire mirror such that there is no more dust on it, and true nature becomes totally manifest.
Thus learnt from my friend Thusness: Those who have true realisation of the true nature will be beyond doubt - because it is more real than real. Enlightened people will definitely know. Unenlightened people can only tell from "signs".
I'm really curious
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Is there such a thing as a level of enlightenment? Meaning among those who are enlightened, there are some who are more enlightened than others. But Buddha still remains as the highest form in which humans can acheive?
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Maybe we shouldn't say 'level', but whether you have the mental clarity. It is not easy to have mental clarity even after some direct experience in meditations.Originally posted by shade343:Is there such a thing as a level of enlightenment? Meaning among those who are enlightened, there are some who are more enlightened than others. But Buddha still remains as the highest form in which humans can acheive?
Some people have a glimpse of pure awareness - but it was so short that soon after, the mind starts adding wrong conceptual understandings to the experience. Most of the time it is like that. Therefore having one glimpse is not enough - we must practise a lot, and have a deep understanding of Buddhism teaching of Emptiness/Conditioned Arisings. -
By his wisdom, his behavior, everything. Truly enlightened people no longer have any Greed, Hatred or Ignorance. An enlightened person is really quite different from usual sentient beings like us.Originally posted by maggot:What "signs" ?
I'm really curious
A truly enlightened person also no longer has the Three Minds (any attachments to Past, Present, Future) and "no ego form, no human form, no sentient being form, and no age form" as stated in the Diamond sutra.
An Arhant has also removed the 10 fetters: "self-illusion, skepticism, attachment to rules and rituals, sensual lust, ill-will / fine material existence, immaterial existence, conceit, restlessness, ignorance"
As for the 'Zen Master' koans, there is one example in the internet: http://www.kwanumzen.com/dssn/
It is an interesting read, it is about the story of how Zen Master Seung Sahn got the transmission and recognised as enlightened by his master. He had to pass through many tests. -
Is Nirvana a level?
For me, its an Exit from the endless cycle, a state, rather than a level... -
Nirvana is beyond any kinds of 'states', anything that can be perceived and is within Space and Time is still not Nirvana. Therefore it cannot be considered as a level.Originally posted by laurence82:Is Nirvana a level?
For me, its an Exit from the endless cycle, a state, rather than a level...
However it is not something that one will suddenly "experience" one day in meditation, it requires long term practise, not only in meditation but in the living. Constantly we are mindful/aware, constantly we are purifying the mind.
In the self-liberation path, Arhant path, even after one truly realises non-self, it is only the first stage called Stream-Enterer. The Stream-Enterer shall attain Arhantship/Nirvana in no more than 7 lifetimes, and is destined to be reborn in the 3 higher realms and not fall into the 3 lower realms. There are altogether 4 stages of sainthood, the 4th is Arhant.
For the Bodhisattvas, after realising emptiness he begins at the 1st Bhumi stage, and must perfect the 10 paramitas before attaining Buddhahood. There are 10 Bhumis, each bhumi is linked to 1 paramita. -
Thanks for the links
I understand now
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http://www.meditationexpert.com/Articles/whatisenlightenment.htm
This is a very good article on the various stages of progress. -
Thanks too.Originally posted by longchen:http://www.meditationexpert.com/Articles/whatisenlightenment.htm
This is a very good article on the various stages of progress.
Finally got someone knew of this -
If one realizes the following fully without any doubt then he is enlightened:
With your mind to awaken your awareness,
With your awareness to awaken your mind.
Awareness is the mind,
The mind is self-aware.
Awareness and mind are not dual,
That is the genuine awareness.
Here are some links on the ten oxherding pictures of Ch'an which shows various stages of progress:
http://swamij.com/zen-ox.htm http://zen.thetao.info/perceive/10oxen.htm http://www.hsuyun.org/Dharma/zbohy/VisualArts/OxHerdingPictures/oxherding2.html -
oh so there is a difference between enlightened and enlightenment
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Originally posted by maggot:oh so there is a difference between enlightened and enlightenment Is my English that bad? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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No problem with your english.Originally posted by namelessness: Is my English that bad?
Just different understandings of the term I have noticed -
Originally posted by namelessness:
I have read the ten oxherding pictures before, very interesting guide
If one realizes the following fully without any doubt then he is enlightened:
[b]With your mind to awaken your awareness,
With your awareness to awaken your mind.
Awareness is the mind,
The mind is self-aware.
Awareness and mind are not dual,
That is the genuine awareness.
Here are some links on the ten oxherding pictures of Ch'an which shows various stages of progress: http://swamij.com/zen-ox.htm http://zen.thetao.info/perceive/10oxen.htm http://www.hsuyun.org/Dharma/zbohy/VisualArts/OxHerdingPictures/oxherding2.html
[/b]
Looks like I'm still at the beginning stages. -
Oh, I see what you mean.Originally posted by maggot:No problem with your english.
Just different understandings of the term I have noticed
Yes, we can find many different sayings about it. I guess what we can is to find a good teacher and learn from him or her. -
ThatÂ’s very modest of you. Should be more than that.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I have read the ten oxherding pictures before, very interesting guide
Looks like I'm still at the beginning stages.
According to Master Kuo AnÂ’s version of oxherding pictures(the above 1st and 3rd link), the 4th step is the beginning of enlightenment and the 10th step is the fulfillment of it. Truly, after enlightenment, the laundry.
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die peacefully in their sleep?Originally posted by maggot:How to know whether a person has reach enlightenment?
Got any test/method to certify? -
Originally posted by namelessness:
In the past I used to be troubled with Mind and Awareness because I'm stucked at conceptual attachments. I asked my dharma teacher a little... and then understood that there were actually no distinct opposite entities called 'Mind' and 'Awareness'. This is called 'Jue2 Xin1 Xiang1 Ying4'... therefore practitioners do no have to fear the mind, neither is Buddhist practise asking us to annihilate our mind.
If one realizes the following fully without any doubt then he is enlightened:
[b]With your mind to awaken your awareness,
With your awareness to awaken your mind.
Awareness is the mind,
The mind is self-aware.
Awareness and mind are not dual,
That is the genuine awareness.
[/b] -
One of themOriginally posted by ozon:die peacefully in their sleep?
Enlightened beings die without regretts or sufferings (even though their body may be sick). They do not have any fear at all of death.
Just before Ninakawa passed away the Zen master Ikkyu visited him. "Shall I lead you on?" Ikkyu asked.
Ninakawa replied: "I came here alone and I go alone. What help could you be to me?"
Ikkyu answered: "If you think you really come and go, that is your delusion. Let me show you the path on which there is no coming and no going."
With his words, Ikkyu had revealed the path so clearly that Ninakawa smilled and passed away. -
Originally posted by namelessness:ThatÂ’s very modest of you. Should be more than that.
According to Master Kuo AnÂ’s version of oxherding pictures(the above 1st and 3rd link), the 4th step is the beginning of enlightenment and the 10th step is the fulfillment of it. Truly, after enlightenment, the laundry.
I'm still lacking in practise to have any real achievements. Sometimes there are some progress, then later back to Stage 1. -
I think what Gautama Buddha acheived is the highest level which a Human can acheive.
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