Creator and Karma
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If there is a creator, then the creator is definitely subjected to Cause and Effect (Karma).
There must be a reason why he/she creates (Cause) and the outcome is our existence (Effect). If there is no reason why he/she creates, then his/her action in creating us will be the Cause and today our world will be the Effect. No matter how you think about it, Karma (Cause and Effect) still involve.
Everyone/thing is subjected to Karma, even the creator (if he/she does exist). And since he/she is subjected to Karma, then I do not see how he/she is different from us (Aside from his power and that he/she can does thing that we cannot). However, at the end of the day, he/she still needs to bear responsibility.
If I am wrong, please correct me.
Thanks. -
"Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found
The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:
Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,
The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen.
No doer of the deeds is found,
No one who ever reaps their fruits,
Empty phenomena roll on,
This view alone is right and true.
No god, no Brahma, may be called,
The maker of this wheel of life,
Empty phenomena roll on,
Dependent on conditions all."
- Visuddhimagga XVI 90 -
Karma and Creator can't co-exist... it's against the teachings of Conditioned Arisings, Emptiness, No-self..
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Someone asked MKY: Does Buddha bear no cause and effect?
MKY said: I emphasize cause and effect only to you, not to Buddha. It would be so ridiculous to say to Buddha: You must beware of cause and effect. -
to the creator, karma is a piece of cake ...so there is no karma to the creatorOriginally posted by hugofriend:If there is a creator, then the creator is definitely subjected to Cause and Effect (Karma).
There must be a reason why he/she creates (Cause) and the outcome is our existence (Effect). If there is no reason why he/she creates, then his/her action in creating us will be the Cause and today our world will be the Effect. No matter how you think about it, Karma (Cause and Effect) still involve.
Everyone/thing is subjected to Karma, even the creator (if he/she does exist). And since he/she is subjected to Karma, then I do not see how he/she is different from us (Aside from his power and that he/she can does thing that we cannot). However, at the end of the day, he/she still needs to bear responsibility.
If I am wrong, please correct me.
Thanks. -
there's a case in ch'an where a dharma teacher mistranslated the Dharma thinking that cause and effect is void or something like that, and he was reborn as a fox. The fox later went to seek help from another Dharma master and change the translation that cause and effect is not void. The fox then got liberated.
that say, 'Everything is void except cause and effect! '
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Then what created the creator?
Then what created the one that created the creator?
Then what created the one that created the one that created the creator?
And so on...oh I have confused myself...
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Ask yourself how old is the element in your body exist in the world?Originally posted by maggot:Then what created the creator?
Then what created the one that created the creator?
Then what created the one that created the one that created the creator?
And so on...oh I have confused myself...
My answer is the element in me is the same age as the oldest creater's element. The element just happen to combine and transform the oldest creater in the time scale far far before us. As we are just happen to be combine and transform into our shape in the present time.
As why we are here, it is just because we want to be here as what we are and how are we are. Its the best form available for us for the cause that we might have created in the last life or form.
If you do not want to be here, simple just stop breathing that all will end your life here. -
there is no creator , we create ourselves due to a never-have-a-starting of doubt and we can only cease our suffering by break free from the 12 dependent origination
all schools of Buddhism points to how to attain this level of samadhi(concentration) to break free from suffering and but approach is different
ask yourself this question ,can the Creator create a stone that He himself cannot even move it or carry it ??
lets see wat kind of views your will have on this ....quizz -
Actually time is just a measurement...we are just moving from 1 state to anotherOriginally posted by Rig:Ask yourself how old is the element in your body exist in the world?
My answer is the element in me is the same age as the oldest creater's element. The element just happen to combine and transform the oldest creater in the time scale far far before us. As we are just happen to be combine and transform into our shape in the present time.
As why we are here, it is just because we want to be here as what we are and how are we are. Its the best form available for us for the cause that we might have created in the last life or form.
If you do not want to be here, simple just stop breathing that all will end your life here.
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You are right, time is just a measurement. But strictly speaking .... there is no time. Why is that so?
Everything we call "the past" is, literally, nothing but present memories. Likewise, everything we call "the future" is nothing but present memories inverted, or rearranged, to form a prediction or expectation. The appearance of "time" is little more than a trick of memory, as the Avatamsaka Sutra (Flower Ornament Scripture) says. You can easily discern this for yourself: simply figure out what it is you consider "the past" and "the future." You will discover that it is nothing but thoughts--nothing but memories, nothing but expectations, nothing but mental commentary. It's "all in your head," so to speak. There's really no such thing as time. There is really only Now--an eternally present Present with no beginning and no ending. Everything is completely new, distinct, and original every instant, with no real "change" or "motion" at all. The mystic-philosopher Heraclitus, explaining this point, said, "A man cannot step in the same river twice."
see: 'There is No Time' -
I thot once Buddha break away from the cycle of life and death, karma will not affect him anymore? Since he's not in the realm of sufferings anymore?Originally posted by namelessness:Someone asked MKY: Does Buddha bear no cause and effect?
MKY said: I emphasize cause and effect only to you, not to Buddha. It would be so ridiculous to say to Buddha: You must beware of cause and effect.
But that does not mean that Buddha is the creator. I can't recall Buddhism talking about creation leh. -
[quote]Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
[b]You are right, time is just a measurement. But strictly speaking .... there is no time. Why is that so?
But for us just take it as a time measurement and accept it. How many of us can ignore time? Seem like none not even buddha, he also use time measurement. Nature has to take its course and for us mankind we can only pinpoint by dimension, location, time,event.
Everything is emptyness including word, thinking, time, event. But the state after emptyness is solid, liquid gases and then next state of emptyness and so forth. Nothing is correct and nothing is incorrect subjected to the factor of what we call time, dimension, location and event. -
There is no such thing as the 'oldest creator' as old as time - etc. Everything is interdependant originated, conditioned arisings... there is no Creator. There is no beginning.Originally posted by Rig:[quote]Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
[b]You are right, time is just a measurement. But strictly speaking .... there is no time. Why is that so?
But for us just take it as a time measurement and accept it. How many of us can ignore time? Seem like none not even buddha, he also use time measurement. Nature has to take its course and for us mankind we can only pinpoint by dimension, location, time,event.
Everything is emptyness including word, thinking, time, event. But the state after emptyness is solid, liquid gases and then next state of emptyness and so forth. Nothing is correct and nothing is incorrect subjected to the factor of what we call time, dimension, location and event.
To those who talked about the first cause of this world, the Buddha responded by saying that it is impossible to find a first cause since everything is changing, interdependent and conditioned by other things. Something that acts as the cause in the present may become the effect in the future. Later that same effect may again become the cause. Such phenomenon continues ad infinitum. It is called the universal law of Anicca or impermanency.
But if you are talking about the 'Primordial Buddha', the luminous source of all - source of samsara and nirvana, that one transcends time and space. It is only by the arising of ignorance that eventually led to the rebirth in 6 realms.. and our goal is to realise this Buddha Nature again.
Again,
"Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found
The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:
Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,
The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen.
No doer of the deeds is found,
No one who ever reaps their fruits,
Empty phenomena roll on,
This view alone is right and true.
No god, no Brahma, may be called,
The maker of this wheel of life,
Empty phenomena roll on,
Dependent on conditions all."
- Visuddhimagga XVI 90 -
http://hhdl.dharmakara.net/hhdlquotes22.html
The Dalai Lama's conversation on God/Creator/Primordial Buddha
A: Why is there no creation possible in Buddhism? It has been said that one cannot find living beings at the becoming of the universe for the essential reason that causes have no beginning. If there were a beginning to the universe, there would also have to be a beginning to consciousness. If we accepted a beginning to consciousness, we would also have to accept that its cause has a beginning, a sudden cause which would have instantly produced consciousness; this would lead to a great many other questions. If consciousness had arisen without cause, or from a permanent cause, that cause would have to exist on. a permanent basis, always, or not exist at all, ever. The fact that a phenomenon exists intermittently proves that it depends on causes and conditions. When all the conditions are met, the phenomenon is produced. When those conditions are absent or incomplete, the phenomenon does not appear. As causes have no beginning and stretch back to infinity, the same thing must apply for living beings. Creation is therefore not possible. (continued in the webpage) -
yes, but never say He rejected the power of karma.Originally posted by earthlings73:I thot once Buddha break away from the cycle of life and death, karma will not affect him anymore? Since he's not in the realm of sufferings anymore? But that does not mean that Buddha is the creator. I can't recall Buddhism talking about creation leh.
There's a Brahma god asked Buddha, "Your abilities are so powerful. Is there
something that's more powerful than your abilities?" The Buddha
replied, "Yes, the force of karma is more powerful. In years to come,
I shall pass away too. So you see the force of karma. However our
force of promise/vow are even stronger than the force of karma. Why?
This is because the force of promise/vow is what started the force of
karma. The force of karma only multiple from our force of
promise/vow. To promise to attain Buddhahood is a pure vow. Hence
pure vow can also over come impure karma. However this pure vow has
to be non-stopped as karma has took over our control. If we stop our
pure vow, karma will grow back. Moreover, our pure vow can make even
more powerful when we combine it with Amitabha's 48 vows.
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Allow me to clarify my post:Originally posted by sinweiy:yes, but never say He rejected the power of karma.
There's a Brahma god asked Buddha, "Your abilities are so powerful. Is there
something that's more powerful than your abilities?" The Buddha
replied, "Yes, the force of karma is more powerful. In years to come,
I shall pass away too. So you see the force of karma. However our
force of promise/vow are even stronger than the force of karma. Why?
This is because the force of promise/vow is what started the force of
karma. The force of karma only multiple from our force of
promise/vow. To promise to attain Buddhahood is a pure vow. Hence
pure vow can also over come impure karma. However this pure vow has
to be non-stopped as karma has took over our control. If we stop our
pure vow, karma will grow back. Moreover, our pure vow can make even
more powerful when we combine it with Amitabha's 48 vows.
/\
Once Buddha entered Nirvana, he's out of the 6 realms right? Between enlightenment and Nirvana, he will still be subjected to the law of karma, but not when he had gotten out of the cycle of birth, death and rebirth (which leads to sufferings) right? -
Yes. Another note: when the Buddha is still alive, he is in 'Nirvana with residue', when he passes away, his Dharmakaya (dharma body) does not pass away, and that is 'Nirvana without reside'. Buddha is liberated from the cycle of samsaric rebirth. However, even though the Buddha can feel/is aware if there is pain, he will not suffer. He is freed from sufferings in this life.Originally posted by earthlings73:Allow me to clarify my post:
Once Buddha entered Nirvana, he's out of the 6 realms right? Between enlightenment and Nirvana, he will still be subjected to the law of karma, but not when he had gotten out of the cycle of birth, death and rebirth (which leads to sufferings) right? -
neither yes nor no and all the above.Originally posted by earthlings73:Allow me to clarify my post:
Once Buddha entered Nirvana, he's out of the 6 realms right? Between enlightenment and Nirvana, he will still be subjected to the law of karma, but not when he had gotten out of the cycle of birth, death and rebirth (which leads to sufferings) right?
much easier if use the Triple Bodies of Buddha to explain.
Dharmakaya - no origination nor cessation.
Sambhogakaya (Bliss Body) - yes origination but no cessation.
Nirmanakaya (manifest bodies, historical Shakaymuni) - yes origination and cessation.
Dharmakaya is for All to benefit.
Sambhogakaya is for Self benefit.
Nirmanakaya is for Others benefits.
Buddha is all in one, one in all.
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Cause and Effect is the essence producing TIME. When a Cause is caused, an effect follows afterwards ... resulting in an event of time.
When the resulting Effect becomes the Cause itself, another Effect or Effects gave birth, resulting in a more Time events, be it constructive or destructive events, which give birth to future timelines, some could even be looping back on itself, creating infinite Cause-Effect events. The latter events are often termed TIMELESS events, because they keep occurring for Eternity. TIMELESS events are not to be confused with events without an element of the Time dimension.
Can Cause and Effect exist simultaneously together or is there a state of co-existence of Cause and Effect? Meaning ... what happens when neither Cause nor Effect takes precedence? I believe it exists. Yes, it becomes a Singularity event! It becomes a pure TIMELESS event, an event without a dimension of Time, an event where Time has no meaning.
What happens at the Singularity or what is it? It's a resuting state of Nirvana from the realisation of Enlightenment - convergence of Cause and Effect!
Just my two cents worth ... -
When you throw an apple upwards, you quickly press the stopwatch to measure the time for it to drop onto the ground.
When an apple is thrown upwards you all know what will happen to the apple right?
However, we can use a stopwatch to measure the time taken when the apple leaves your hand to the moment it hits the ground. -
Regarding 'timelessness', I will quote two persons from the other 'There is no time' post -
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longchen 05 December 2004 · 09:58 PM
From my understanding thus far, all past lives are actually happening in the ETERNAL NOW. This interpretation was taken from a brief moment, which felt as if I was physically, and consciously aligned with “Eternal Now/No Time”. I was very much awake when the amazing phenomenon occurred. I could only catch a glimpse of it.
Anyway, hereÂ’s what I think I perceivedÂ…
“TIME existed only as a perception for physical consciousness in this realm. Without consciousness, TIME does not exist. Events are all happening in the NOW moment. However, not all consciousnesses are in the present time. Past events/memories are also happening in the NOW. Future appears to be some kind of potential.
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Thusness 07 December 2004 · 08:44 AM
This topic is so much to my liking that I have to say something.
"Time" does it exist first of all? Science has viewed time as a dimension that can be manipulated if "we are able to travel faster than the speed of light." According to Einstein, a photon travelling at the speed of light does not experience time, coz time halt at the speed of light!
So where is "Time" according to Science? It is another "space" far from
"here" and can be reached if we are able to travel faster than light.
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Thusness 07 December 2004 · 08:59 AM
The moment ceases as it arises, what the mind grasped is but an image
of the ever changing Present. It catches the "Form", the "Enity", the "I"
which is illusionary and misses the Essence. In reality there is no changing "thing", there is merely change.
Right at this moment is the display of the three Dharma Seals: impermanence, non-self, and nirvana, the emptiness nature all existence.
This is the basis that every authentic teaching of buddhism must bear.
It is here that even the greatest mystic must take bow to Buddha. Such penetrating insight amid all kinds of lightning-fast changes to differentiate "I AM" from "Thusness".
The ever Presence of all cannot be something secondhand, it cannot
be the object of observation. It remains original, new, clear and ungraspable.
To enter into the profoundest source of our true nature, -to "know" Now.....Got to work NOW... -
Yes... i understand what you mean.. and I don't mean to say that they are the same.Originally posted by Eye in the Sky:Cause and Effect is the essence producing TIME. When a Cause is caused, an effect follows afterwards ... resulting in an event of time.
When the resulting Effect becomes the Cause itself, another Effect or Effects gave birth, resulting in a more Time events, be it constructive or destructive events, which give birth to future timelines, some could even be looping back on itself, creating infinite Cause-Effect events. The latter events are often termed TIMELESS events, because they keep occurring for Eternity. TIMELESS events are not to be confused with events without an element of the Time dimension.
Can Cause and Effect exist simultaneously together or is there a state of co-existence of Cause and Effect? Meaning ... what happens when neither Cause nor Effect takes precedence? I believe it exists. Yes, it becomes a Singularity event! It becomes a pure TIMELESS event, an event without a dimension of Time, an event where Time has no meaning.
What happens at the Singularity or what is it? It's a resuting state of Nirvana from the realisation of Enlightenment - convergence of Cause and Effect!
Just my two cents worth ... -
BTW Eye in the Sky, just curious to know... how did you know about this forum? Did you come from longchen (simpo's) forum? or perhaps some other Buddhist forums? It is a rare occurance to have a foreigner post in this forum since sgforums.com is a Singaporean forum.
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All things are the creations of our thougths. Thinking produces a frequency and this frequency is a energy which constantly and instantiously broadcast out into the interspaces of universe. This frequency attracts other energies that is in line with your thoughts and produces concrete substances and images that we can see and touch. It falls back to the science theory that energy cannot be created nor distroyed, but it can change from one state to another.
And all substances are energies, be it in the air, water, rocks, table etc and our thoughts.
We are the creation of our thoughts.
In fact one seminar from US (not a Buddhist community) is adovocating about this.
cheers,
Concerned Man