Curious - Any Christian-turned-Buddhist converts here?
-
huh?Originally posted by WiNtEr'SkiLL:mad mad mad
?? -
Kong Meng San Phor Kark See Monastery is the biggest.Originally posted by ceecookie:BTW for those that watch the 7pm fishball show,what and where was that temple that Dadi prayed...its quite big and magnificant...
http://www.kmspks.org/
/\ -
what about countries which are less clear cut like USA? The way they have committed attrocities in the name of 'justice'? Nazi Germany was very clear cut evil, but USA is a less clear equation. Also, Singapore I believe is less clear as well. U have to question is it actually repaying "country's kindness" or repaying "PAP's 'kindness' " Personally I dun think my country was very kind to me, or for that matter, to most of the countries' youths. Our country's educational system produces people as cogs for the social machine, it does not encourage the pursuit of your own dreams. Maybe u will say that these are selfish thoughts, but there has to be a balance between devotion towards society and self. Is it right for society to treat individal human lives as disposable tools for its own 'benefit' when in reality that concerns a painful existance and ruined dreams?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Of course, as depicted in Kalama Sutta, Buddha disadvise any kind of faith that is blind. But it also does not mean we should be overly self-conscious in any way... Follow the model of 'Dao De'.
Anyway loyal to country is a good virtue. In Buddhism there are 4 kindness we need to repay, one of them is the 'Country's Kindness'.
4 Kindness:
1) Country's kindness
2) Parents' kindness
3) Teachers' & Seniors' kindness
4) Triple Gems' kindness
Of course, it doesn't mean if you had the choice we should blindly follow a dictatorial system, or go to war with another country with aggressive intentions like the Nazis. However Singapore is not such a country and our NS is for defence and not aggression, therefore it is a good way to repay our country's kindness. -
hmm..on the contrary, i think there's this money motivation in today's democratic world where people have their own right, as compare to the imperialism of the past, where people obey the Emperor. people now are more selfish compare to the past, where selflessness, loyal, honour, patriotism is stressed.Originally posted by HENG@:but thats in the movies. in the movies the bad guys always dies in the end. isn't there some lesson to that as well? the reason im taking a look at their logic is simply that, in today's secular world, there is so much suffering, and u wonder if more people actually adopted the premise that if they treated others the way they wanted to be treated, maybe the world would be a better place. If soldiers weren't all so blindly loyal to their governments and thought more about 'self' maybe people would be more reluctant to wage war. in this case im not looking at adopting their logic as a means toward enlightnement, but as a means towards making the world less painful to live in for everyone
btw, war in Buddhism got a reason or cause.
/\ -
people obey the emperor, thats all very well but wot if its a 'hun jun'? aka an unjust or unwise ruler? i don't think we can just say we must be loyal to our rulers because we have to look at absolute good and bad to decide what we must do, not just adhere to the rule 'repay country's kindness' and be loyal regardless of whether it is good or bad.Originally posted by sinweiy:hmm..on the contrary, i think there's this money motivation in today's democratic world where people have their own right, as compare to the imperialism of the past, where people obey the Emperor. people now are more selfish compare to the past, where selflessness, loyal, honour, patriotism is stressed.
btw, war in Buddhism got a reason or cause.
/\
If not being loyal to your country is bad, then I suppose Lt. William Calley and his 120 men of charlie company are considered heros while Officer Hugh Thompson Jr and his crew, who were prepared to open fire on their fellow comrades are considered villians then?
Lt. William Calley and his men, in case u don't know were responsible for the now infamous Mai Lai Village Massacre in Vietnam. Less well known, is Officer Hugh Thompson Jr, who was the pilot of a huey chopper belonging to the Aerial Scout Unit, and his crew Crew Chief Glenn Andreotta and Spc Lawrence Colburn, who tried to stop the massacre.
It is this notion that one must be loyal to one's country which caused Officer Hugh Thompson Jr to be villified in his own country. Is this fair? In the view of absolute good and bad, of honour and infamy, I feel that he has certainly done something very honourable. Risking court-martial (for ordering his crew to open fire on fellow americans if necessary) and for saving Vietnamese lives at a time when USA was at war with vietnam. Sometimes, u have to adhere to your own principles even if it means going against your country. And upholding your own principles against all odds is, to me, a kind of putting self foremost. For me, self is not just self interest, but also self principles and beliefs. And that is what led Officer Hugh Thompson Jr to do the honourable that day.
extract from www.usanews.com:
Skimming over the Vietnamese village of My Lai in a helicopter with a bubble-shaped windshield, 24-year-old Hugh Thompson had a superb view of the ground below. But what the Army pilot saw didn't make any sense: piles of Vietnamese bodies and dead water buffalo. He and his two younger crew mates, Lawrence Colburn and Glenn Andreotta, were flying low over the hamlet on March 16, 1968, trying to draw fire so that two gunships flying above could locate and destroy the enemy. On this morning, no one was shooting at them. And yet they saw bodies everywhere, and the wounded civilians they had earlier marked for medical aid were now all dead.
As the helicopter hovered a few feet over a paddy field, the team watched a group of Americans approach a wounded young woman lying on the ground. A captain nudged her with his foot, then shot her. The men in the helicopter recoiled in horror, shouting, "You son of a Bitch!"
Thompson couldn't believe it. His suspicions and fear began to grow as they flew over the eastern side of the village and saw dozens of bodies piled in an irrigation ditch. Soldiers were standing nearby, taking a cigarette break. Thompson racked his brains for an explanation. Maybe the civilians had fled to the ditch for cover? Maybe they'd been accidentally killed and the soldiers had made a mass grave? The Army warrant officer just couldn't wrap his mind around the truth of My Lai.
On that historic morning, Thompson set his helicopter down near the irrigation ditch full of bodies. He asked a sergeant if the soldiers could help the civilians, some of whom were still moving. The sergeant suggested putting them out of their misery. Stunned, Thompson turned to Lieutenant Calley, who told him to mind his own business. Thompson reluctantly got back in his helicopter and began to lift off. Just then Andreotta yelled, "My God, they're firing into the ditch!"
Thompson finally faced the truth. He and his crew flew around for a few minutes, outraged, wondering what to do. Then they saw several elderly adults and children running for a shelter, chased by Americans. "We thought they had about 30 seconds before they'd die," recalls Colburn. Thompson landed his chopper between the troops and the shelter, then jumped out and confronted the lieutenant in charge of the chase. He asked for assistance in escorting the civilians out of the bunker; the lieutenant said he'd get them out with a hand grenade. Furious, Thompson announced he was taking the civilians out. He went back to Colburn and Andreotta and told them if the Americans fired, to shoot them. "Glenn and I were staring at each other, dumbfounded," says Colburn. He says he never pointed his gun at an American soldier, but he might have fired if they had first. The ground soldiers waited and watched.
Thompson coaxed the Vietnamese out of the shelter with hand gestures. They followed, wary. Thompson looked at his three-man helicopter and realized he had nowhere to put them. "There was no thinking about it," he says now. "It was just something that had to be done, and it had to be done fast." He got on the radio and begged the gunships to land and fly the four adults and five children to safety, which they did within minutes.
Before returning to base, the helicopter crew saw something moving in the irrigation ditch–a child, about 4 years old. Andreotta waded through bloody cadavers to pull him out. Thompson, who had a son, was overcome by emotion. He immediately flew the child to a nearby hospital.
Thompson wasted no time telling his superiors what had happened. "They said I was screaming quite loud. I was mad. I threatened never to fly again," Thompson remembers. "I didn't want to be a part of that. It wasn't war." An investigation followed, but it was cursory at best.
A month later, Andreotta died in combat. Thompson was shot down and returned home to teach helicopter piloting. Colburn served his tour of duty and left the military. The two figured those involved in the killing had been court-martialed. In fact, nothing had happened. But rumors of the massacre persisted. One soldier who heard of the atrocities, Ron Ridenhour, vowed to make them public. In the spring of 1969, he sent letters to government officials, which led to a real investigation and sickening revelations: murdered babies and old men, raped and mutilated women, in a village where U.S. soldiers mistakenly expected to find lots of Viet Cong.
The Pentagon's investigation eventually suggested that nearly 80 soldiers had participated in the killing and coverup, although only Calley (who now works at a jewelry store in Columbus, Ga.) was convicted. The eyewitness testimony of Thompson and Colburn proved crucial. But instead of thanking them, America vilified them. Many saw Calley as a scapegoat for regrettable but inevitable civilian casualties. "Rallies for Calley" were held all over the country. Jimmy Carter, then governor of Georgia, urged citizens to leave car headlights on to show support for Calley. Thompson, who got nasty letters and death threats, remembers thinking: "Has everyone gone mad?" He feared a court-martial for his command to fire, if necessary, on U.S. soldiers.
Gradually the furor died down. Colburn and Thompson lived in relative anonymity until a 1989 television documentary on My Lai reclaimed them as forgotten heroes. David Egan, a Clemson University professor who had served in a French village where Nazis killed scores of innocents in World War II, was amazed by the story. He campaigned to have Thompson and his team awarded the coveted Soldier's Medal. It wasn't until March 6, 1998, after internal debate among Pentagon officials (who feared an award would reopen old wounds) and outside pressure from reporters, that Thompson and Colburn finally received medals in a ceremony at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial.
But both say a far more gratifying reward was a trip back to My Lai this March to dedicate a school and a "peace park." It was then they finally met a young man named Do Hoa, who they believe was the boy they rescued from that death-filled ditch. "Being reunited with the boy was just...I can't even describe it," says Colburn. And Thompson, also overwhelmed, doesn't even try. -
so in this case, i disagree that we must be loyal to our emperor or ruler or to our country, and i reject the notion of 'country's kindness'.
In fact, we should be loyal to our noble ideas. only when u find a leader who shares those same noble ideas as u, should u be loyal to him/her. -
i give a analogy why Buddhism are not supportive(note, no reject) of selfishness. if the world/society is like our body. and if our different parts of our bodies starts to go on their selfish way, the body/world is going to get sick or ill. Correct attitude is like if one part of the skin get a cut, the whole body help to repair the wound. So that the world can be healthy. This applies to communism as well. The King or governor or Emperor or President must not be Selfish, it must work for the benifit of the Entire World and people.
i think, due to people just stepping into modernisation, and capitalism, People invent many things and earn their selfish money. don't care the enviroment, keep polluting the world, just to earn money. now the enviroment is sick, you get more earthquarks, hurricanes, all kind of disasters, even the bird flu thingy. sigh*. i think people are still shallow in they thinking. They are still like trying an error like flying areoplanes. People don't used to know aero-dynamics, so many crashes happen. until they learn from their mistakes, they will know.
/\ -
but the matter of the fact is, the king/emperor/ruler are seiflsh. do u then, still advocate blind support for them or country?Originally posted by sinweiy:i give a analogy why Buddhism are not supportive(note, no reject) of selfishness. if the world/society is like our body. and if our different parts of our bodies starts to go on their selfish way, the body/world is going to get sick or ill. Correct attitude is like if one part of the skin get a cut, the whole body help to repair the wound. So that the world can be healthy. This applies to communism as well. The King or governor or Emperor or President must not be Selfish, it must work for the benifit of the Entire World and people.
i think, due to people just stepping into modernisation, and capitalism, People invent many things and earn their selfish money. don't care the enviroment, keep polluting the world, just to earn money. now the enviroment is sick, you get more earthquarks, hurricanes, all kind of disasters, even the bird flu thingy. sigh*. i think people are still shallow in they thinking. They are still like trying an error like flying areoplanes. People don't used to know aero-dynamics, so many crashes happen. until they learn from their mistakes, they will know.
/\
also, we are talking about sentinent human lives here. can we break them down to compare them to body parts, which do not have an individual soul like a human does? it is, inherently, not a good comparism. -
of coz, it does depend, either way, the root of the problem is still selfishness.Originally posted by HENG@:but the matter of the fact is, the king/emperor/ruler are seiflsh. do u then, still advocate blind support for them or country?
Last time 5000 years ago, king/emperor/ruler are not like that. They are more noble, they have this moral teachings for young and their people that lead china to survive 5000 years. in a way, Imperialism subdue ones selfishness. Democratization (but i prefer Equality) should be correct if it's working toward Equality. But it's still very young. USA, form it few hundred years only, bound to have many mistakes.
the body analogy is a best guide. think does it benifit the whole?
/\ -
Soul, to be precise, the 7th consciousness that causes an illusion of 'self' and dualism, is cause for the existence of sentient beings.Originally posted by HENG@:but the matter of the fact is, the king/emperor/ruler are seiflsh. do u then, still advocate blind support for them or country?
also, we are talking about sentinent human lives here. can we break them down to compare them to body parts, which do not have an individual soul like a human does? it is, inherently, not a good comparism.
Buddhism is to remove this illusion.
If king/emperor/ruler is selfish, then of cos doesnt mean have to blindly support them. All these have to require wisdom. Buddha never ask anyone to blindly follow their rulers, repaying kindness is just something we ought to do because of what the nation has provided us.
Similarly for example, repaying kindness to parents. In Chinese we call it 'Filial Piety', or 'Xiao Shun'. In Buddhism however, we advocate 'Xiao4', but not necessarily 'Shun4'. 'Xiao' means doing your part as a child, giving moral support to ur parents, economical support/etc etc when they are old, all these kind of things are what we as children have to do whether or not our parents have treated us well when we are young or whether we like them. They have given birth to our body, and without our body how can we have any other things in the world? Then how about 'Shun'? We don't need to 'Shun' everything our parents say. If parents tell you to rob, then you should be wise enough not to 'Shun'. If parents smoke, you shouldnt be influenced.
But anyway I don't think PAP is really that bad. My master even praised LKY being like a bodhisattva for his great job in transforming our nation during his Singapore dharma talk to the masses in 1989 (many thousands of people attended). Anyway, lets not change this topic into a PAP bashing conversation
-
you or i form a family, a group of families form a society, and a group of societies from a country, and a group of countries form a world. i don't want to go into the universe etcs. but can see. if a family got problem, and many families got problems, it's going to effect one by one until the whole world get effected per se.Originally posted by HENG@:also, we are talking about sentinent human lives here. can we break them down to compare them to body parts, which do not have an individual soul like a human does? it is, inherently, not a good comparism.
stop the problem from oneself.
/\ -
5000 years ago in china, we've had more than our fair share of corrupt emperors. how else do u think dynasties fall? i'd say that at least half of chinese emperors in the past were't noble thinking people. Even some of those who established dynasties were doing it out of self greed. Qin Shi Huang I dare say, is one of them.Originally posted by sinweiy:of coz, it does depend, either way, the root of the problem is still selfishness.
Last time 5000 years ago, king/emperor/ruler are not like that. They are more noble, they have this moral teachings for young and their people that lead china to survive 5000 years. in a way, Imperialism subdue ones selfishness. Democratization (but i prefer Equality) should be correct if it's working toward Equality. But it's still very young. USA, form it few hundred years only, bound to have many mistakes.
the body analogy is a best guide. think does it benifit the whole?
/\
and your analogy, it does benefit the whole, but u're talking about body parts without the capability of sentinent thoughts, body parts who do not have an individual soul benefitting a human with a soul n sentinent thought, as opposed to human beings with sentinent thoughts and souls benefitting society which, itself is not a living being with sentinent thought and a soul. -
thats 1989, b4 the trappings of power changed him. significantly. its gone from the better good of the nation to retention of personal power.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Soul, to be precise, the 7th consciousness that causes an illusion of 'self' and dualism, is cause for the existence of sentient beings.
Buddhism is to remove this illusion.
If king/emperor/ruler is selfish, then of cos doesnt mean have to blindly support them. All these have to require wisdom. Buddha never ask anyone to blindly follow their rulers, repaying kindness is just something we ought to do because of what the nation has provided us.
Similarly for example, repaying kindness to parents. In Chinese we call it 'Filial Piety', or 'Xiao Shun'. In Buddhism however, we advocate 'Xiao4', but not necessarily 'Shun4'. 'Xiao' means doing your part as a child, giving moral support to ur parents, economical support/etc etc while they are old, all these kind of this are what we as children have to do whether or not our parents have treated us well when we are young or whether we like them. They have given birth to our body, and without our body how can we have any other things in the world? Then how about 'Shun'? We don't need to 'Shun' everything our parents say. If parents tell you to rob, then you should be wise enough not to 'Shun'. If parents smoke, you shouldnt be influenced.
But anyway I don't think PAP is really that bad. My master even praised LKY being like a bodhisattva for his great job in transforming our nation during his Singapore dharma talk to the masses in 1989 (many thousands of people attended). Anyway, lets not change this topic into a PAP bashing conversation -
so u may say, but its reversible. country got problem, problem affects society, society got problem affects family. family got problem affects oneself. nothing is absolute in the directional flow of cause and effect.Originally posted by sinweiy:you or i form a family, a group of families form a society, and a group of societies from a country, and a group of countries form a world. i don't want to go into the universe etcs. but can see. if a family got problem, and many families got problems, it's going to effect one by one until the whole world get effected per se.
stop the problem from oneself.
/\ -
can. though it was individual that started the first cause, before reverse can take place. We call this collective karma in Buddhism.Originally posted by HENG@:so u may say, but its reversible. country got problem, problem affects society, society got problem affects family. family got problem affects oneself. nothing is absolute in the directional flow of cause and effect.
i mean also in the past, moral/virtue teachings were stressed than nowadays where it teach people how to earn money for self benefit. That's their purpose in eduation as compare to wisdom.
People are already learning to fight or compete for their possessions. Competitions between indivdual upgrade, u have battle between companies, upgrade, you have battle between countries. and that's the origination of war. It is individual selfishness that start all problems.
/\ -
Originally posted by sinweiy:
ren zhi chu, xing ben shan.
can. though it was individual that started the first cause, before reverse can take place. We call this collective karma in Buddhism.
i mean also in the past, moral/virtue teachings were stressed than nowadays where it teach people to earn money for self benefit.
People are already learning to [b]fight or competefor their possessions. Competitions between indivdual upgrade, u have battle between companies, upgrade, you have battle between countries. See the origination of war. It is individual selfishness.
/\
[/b]
the true self of man is that man is inherently compassionate. it is the external factors that lead man to go astray. if people would concentrate on their "self" and not allow external factors like family, society and country to influence them, this world would be a better place.
war is never due to individual selfishness. it is due to collective selfishness, compassionate people being influenced to join in a society's or a country's collective greed. if people were all individually selfish, putting their well being above all, nobody would want to fight a war because nobody wants to run the risk of being killed would they?
once again i stress that im not saying that this logic is the path to enlightenment, just that the secular world would right now be better off following this logic 1st so that relative peace may be had, b4 further enlightenment can be sought.
also im sure u've all heard of this phrase 'ji li li ren' notice how even in this chinese philosophy of living, self comes before others. -
hmm 1st para and 2nd para contradicts, say from a reverse psy, you want to solve the problem, you start from self as in ur first para stressed. which we also agree, it's call precepts/self discipline in Buddhism.Originally posted by HENG@:ren zhi chu, xing ben shan.
the true self of man is that man is inherently compassionate. it is the external factors that lead man to go astray. if people would concentrate on their "self" and not allow external factors like family, society and country to influence them, this world would be a better place.
war is never due to individual selfishness. it is due to collective selfishness, compassionate people being influenced to join in a society's or a country's collective greed. if people were all individually selfish, putting their well being above all, nobody would want to fight a war because nobody wants to run the risk of being killed would they?
.
collective are form from many individual. it's like without atoms, there's no bodies. 'individually selfish-sim' wouldn't work to survive. why? try living in an isle by oneself. one will be bored to death. even working to earn a living is still needing a group of people.
but i see "nobody wants to run the risk of being killed " had turn into an advantage.
eventual, to solve is still to educated people. if not they also blur blur, thinking what they do is 'right' to them.
/\ -
the problem with all your analogies is that the small parts that form a whole do not have sentinent thoughts like humans, so they can mindlessly devote themselves wholely to the collective, the whole. It is not the same for humans, who have sentinent thoughts to devote themselves to a society. this is a secular world we all live in right now. To apply something that is very ideal but conceptual and not easy to follow, won't solve anything and that results in unnecessary suffering continuning for a period of time when it doesn't have to continue.Originally posted by sinweiy:hmm 1st para and 2nd para contradicts, say from a reverse psy, you want to solve the problem, you start from self as in ur first para stressed. which we also agree, it's call precepts/self discipline in Buddhism.
collective are form from many individual. it's like without atoms, there's no bodies. 'individually selfish-sim' wouldn't work to survive. why? try living in an isle by oneself. one will be bored to death. even working to earn a living is still needing a group of people.
but i see "nobody wants to run the risk of being killed " had turn into an advantage.
eventual, to solve is still to educated people. if not they also blur blur, thinking what they do is 'right' to them.
/\ -
you forgot the following phrase,Originally posted by HENG@:ren zhi chu, xing ben shan.
the true self of man is that man is inherently compassionate. it is the external factors that lead man to go astray. ..
xing xiang jing, xi xiang yuan
it's not due to external factors, external factors is mother natural, but due to one's inner habit that further the xing/person. we also say due to inner greed, hatred and folly.
then following:
gou bu jiao, xing nan qiang
if don't educated, the xing/person, will be out of control per se.
/\ -
if i don't go indepth, they do have sentinent thoughts. Science, Japan have proof that even water have sentient thoughts too.Originally posted by HENG@:the problem with all your analogies is that the small parts that form a whole do not have sentinent thoughts like humans, so they can mindlessly devote themselves wholely to the collective, the whole. It is not the same for humans, who have sentinent thoughts to devote themselves to a society. this is a secular world we all live in right now. To apply something that is very ideal but conceptual and not easy to follow, won't solve anything and that results in unnecessary suffering continuning for a period of time when it doesn't have to continue.
anyway even not go indepth. the analogy of human forming the world. human is smaller parts of world and to a world have sentinent thoughts.
oso , it accords with Einstein's Law of relativity
/\ -
Originally posted by sinweiy:
who decides what is the right education? education by society often brings about as much harm as it does good.
you forgot the following phrase,
xing xiang jing, xi xiang yuan
it's not due to external factors, external factors is mother natural, but due to one's inner [b]habit that further the xing/person. we also say due to inner greed, hatred and folly.
then following:
gou bu jiao, xing nan qiang
if don't educated, the xing/person, will be out of control per se.
/\
[/b] -
that is new. so u are saying water can achieve nirvana? and rocks too? i don't think i've ever noticed it in the buddhist teachings i've come across. never heard my family's shifu talk about it either.Originally posted by sinweiy:if i don't go indepth, they do have sentinent thoughts. Science, Japan have proof that even water have sentient thoughts too.
anyway even not go indepth. the analogy of human forming the world. human is smaller parts of world and to a world have sentinent thoughts.
/\ -
one can decide what one wants to learn. if don't get brain-wash that is.Originally posted by HENG@:who decides what is the right education? education by society often brings about as much harm as it does good.
taught the wrong thing is also a prob as mention earlier.
/\ -
true true. but wouldn't one have to have a strong sense already of what right and wrong is?Originally posted by sinweiy:one can decide what one wants to learn. if don't get brain-wash that is.
taught the wrong thing is also a prob as mention earlier.
/\ -
Hmm? I think inanimate things don't have sentient thoughts bah... maybe sentient thoughts isn't the right word. But it does have a very special way of 'remembering'. not consciousness, though. So mantra water also has an effect in this way.Originally posted by sinweiy:if i don't go indepth, they do have sentinent thoughts. Science, Japan have proof that even water have sentient thoughts too.
anyway even not go indepth. the analogy of human forming the world. human is smaller parts of world and to a world have sentinent thoughts.
oso , it accords with Einstein's Law of relativity
/\
http://www.hado.net/
Inanimate things have 'Dharma Nature' but not sentient mind/consciousness/etc.