Curious - Any Christian-turned-Buddhist converts here?
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that's what i thot? so i dun think its accurate to compare non-sentinent things contributing towards a whole, with sentinent humans contributing towards a collective.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Hmm? I think inanimate things don't have sentient thoughts bah... maybe sentient thoughts isn't the right word. But it does have a very special way of 'remembering'. not consciousness, though. So mantra water also has an effect in this way.
http://www.hado.net/
Inanimate things have 'Dharma Nature' but not sentient mind/consciousness/etc. -
u say, i don't say. we say existence is divide into mind and matter. Hua Yen Sutra states matter have Dharma-nature, mind have Buddha-nature. But Buddha-nature and Dharma-nature are not two, but One.Originally posted by HENG@:that is new. so u are saying water can achieve nirvana? and rocks too? i don't think i've ever noticed it in the buddhist teachings i've come across. never heard my family's shifu talk about it either.
ther's a school called Mind-Only school that states that all phenomena are form by the mind.
6th Chan Master Hui Neng was ask did the flag move or the wind? He say it's Mind that move. Same theory with the water thinking.
You put nice music to the water, the water crystal when use telescope to see, turn very beautiful. but if u let it listen to bad music, the crystal turn ugly. Or if you are angry, and u look at the water crystal, it also turn ugly.
Rock also can, but takes longer time. It's all in Hua Yen sutra theory.
The world will be a better place, if the mind of individual start to move toward shan/goodness.
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I understand that Dharma-nature and Buddha-nature are One, but to say that inanimate things have Sentient-mind implies that they have ignorance?Originally posted by sinweiy:u say, i don't say. we say existence is divide into mind and matter. Hua Yen Sutra states matter have Dharma-nature, mind have Buddha-nature. But Buddha-nature and Dharma-nature are not two, but One.
ther's a school called Mind-Only school that states that all phenomena are form by the mind.
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I don't think inanimate things have the 12 interdependant origination leading to birth and death. -
takes time.Originally posted by HENG@:true true. but wouldn't one have to have a strong sense already of what right and wrong is?
(wah, gto liao)
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more indepth, yes, it's in Hua Yen or Mind Only school.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I understand that Dharma-nature and Buddha-nature are One, but to say that inanimate things have Sentient-mind implies that they have ignorance? I don't think inanimate things have the 12 interdependant origination leading to birth and death.
as long as the neutrons or protons move or vibrates, it's not in samathi.
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Interesting, can you post more on that from the sutras/commentaries/etc... I would like to find out more.Originally posted by sinweiy:more indepth, yes, it's in Hua Yen or Mind Only school.
as long as the neutrons or protons move or vibrates, it's not in samathi.
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hmm... ok getting complicated here.
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tomorrow, gto, late liao.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Interesting, can you post more on that from the sutras/commentaries/etc... I would like to find out more.
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on the other hand if we go into individual person, my Master Chin Kung do say people nowadays are spoiled, bu zi ai(don't cherish themselves), torture themselve for temp 'pleasure', that leads to problems as well. in term of food for example, they eat oily, salty food, for the sake of taste, but not for the sake of their heart/intestines etc. ie they 'selfishly' love their tongue, more than they love their heart/intestines per se. This is fen bie xing(dualism mind). We think we are seekinf individual benifit, but one still separate our bodies.
Master if want to go to a country, He first see if the divorces rate is high or not. if high, that mean the country is bound to have problems. Like cell in our body, if more cells are spoiled, the whole body get sick.
another point that why eventually, individualism wouldn't work is for example, a group living together in a place. each don't care. you don't care, thinking, i'm happy, why care. then all think like that. then the enviroment become dirty, u live in that place, see you still happy or not. All must help to clean/protect the place wat.
oso in terms of Law and order. you are free to do anything? there's this boundary or obstructions that individualism/freewill is block by socialism. Cross it, and you break the law. Applies to the Big Mother Nature's Law of cause and effect.
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you forgot the rock story ah? People don't believe oso, then the monk go to preach to the rocks, and the rocks nodded.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Interesting, can you post more on that from the sutras/commentaries/etc... I would like to find out more.
Even the water experiment, how it think? MCK say all 'inanimated' have 6 senses, they can see, hear, listen, tastes, touch, think...where He asked the Japan scientist to investigate. Why they also have 6 sense? It's because they are from the All encompassion Tathagatagarbha 'treasury of the Thus Come One.' Infinity in One, One in Infinity.
think have to listen thought the explainations, as it's too deep and profound to say.
http://www.amtb-aus.org/
the Commentries of Hua Yen.
this is what i noted recently heard.
All things(include animated and inanimated) have 3 kaya/bodies. Which are roughly mean Ti3(body), Xiang4(image) and Yong4(use). Ti(body) is divided into Zong3 (whole) and Bie2(Sub). Xiang4(image) is also divided into Tong2(sameness) and Yi4(differences). Yong4(use) is also divided into Chen2(form) and Huai4(spoil). These 6 'elements' are hence in all things.
say human body. there's a whole body, and there's sub as in the organs, hand, leg etcs. There's sameness like in cell to cell and difference like in leg and hand. There's formation of cell and dying of cell.
same for a House. there's a whole house, and there's sub as kitchen, living rm etcs. There's sameness in brick to brick and different as in pillars and cement. There's formation and being destory.
He than say and i haven't heard finish, the sub-elements also have the 3 kaya/bodies and 6 'elements', be it animated or inanimated. And the sub of the sub also have the 3 kayas. sub of the sub of the sub also have! For INFINITY!
In Hua Yen, there's a passage that say:
I (Samantabhadra)will gain an endless store of merits and virtues. In one mote of dust are lands as numerous as motes of dust; In each land are incalculable numbers of BuddhaÂ’s. In every place where BuddhaÂ’s dwell I see the host assembled Endlessly proclaiming all the practices of Bodhi.
every pore, every mote dust have Infinity Buddhalands or Cosmo! An in that Cosmo/Buddhaland, yet again contain infinity mote dusts! ...and on and on....
And who can precieve ALL? Samantabhadra Bodhsattva.
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I understand that inanimate things have Dharma Nature, but from my understanding they do not have 6 senses.Originally posted by sinweiy:you forgot the rock story ah? People don't believe oso, then the monk go to preach to the rocks, and the rocks nodded.
Even the water experiment, how it think? MCK say all 'inanimated' have 6 senses, they can see, hear, listen, tastes, touch, think...where He asked the Japan scientist to investigate. Why they also have 6 sense? It's because they are from the All encompassion Tathagatagarbha 'treasury of the Thus Come One.' Infinity in One, One in Infinity.
think have to listen thought the explainations, as it's too deep and profound to say.
http://www.amtb-aus.org/
the Commentries of Hua Yen.
this is what i noted recently heard.
All things(include animated and inanimated) have 3 kaya/bodies. Which are roughly mean Ti3(body), Xiang4(image) and Yong4(use). Ti(body) is divided into Zong3 (whole) and Bie2(Sub). Xiang4(image) is also divided into Tong2(sameness) and Yi4(differences). Yong4(use) is also divided into Chen2(form) and Huai4(spoil). These 6 'elements' are hence in all things.
say human body. there's a whole body, and there's sub as in the organs, hand, leg etcs. There's sameness like in cell to cell and difference like in leg and hand. There's formation of cell and dying of cell.
same for a House. there's a whole house, and there's sub as kitchen, living rm etcs. There's sameness in brick to brick and different as in pillars and cement. There's formation and being destory.
He than say and i haven't heard finish, the sub-elements also have the 3 kaya/bodies and 6 'elements', be it animated or inanimated. And the sub of the sub also have the 3 kayas. sub of the sub of the sub also have! For INFINITY!
In Hua Yen, there's a passage that say:
I (Samantabhadra)will gain an endless store of merits and virtues. In one mote of dust are lands as numerous as motes of dust; In each land are incalculable numbers of BuddhaÂ’s. In every place where BuddhaÂ’s dwell I see the host assembled Endlessly proclaiming all the practices of Bodhi.
every pore, every mote dust have Infinity Buddhalands or Cosmo! An in that Cosmo/Buddhaland, yet again contain infinity mote dusts! ...and on and on....
And who can precieve ALL? Samantabhadra Bodhsattva.
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What I meant was, having Dharma Nature/Buddha Nature doesn't mean must have Ignorance/be a sentient being right?
Because what you said is a little confusing, it gives me the impression that those inanimate things can Suffer (including vegetarian meals?) and will undergo rebirth in the 6 realms. -
like that difficult to explain. hav to listen to my master's talk.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I understand that inanimate things have Dharma Nature, but from my understanding they do not have 6 senses.
What I meant was, having Dharma Nature/Buddha Nature doesn't mean must have Ignorance/be a sentient being right?
Because what you said is a little confusing, it gives me the impression that those inanimate things can Suffer (including vegetarian meals?) and will undergo rebirth in the 6 realms.
He ask Japan Scientists to test the water, rice, apple and other things. give music for it to listen. Show image for it see. Use fragrance to test smell. The water can all react to the different test. etc. Even say rock also can react, but take longer time.
inanimate? is the table 'inanimate'? don't the atoms also vibrate. then u can't say it's inanimate. as if the atoms don't vibrates, the table cannot exist.
that say bodhisattva also cannot step on grasses.
they are like the form realms (note not of the desire realms). They suffer Huai Ku (dukkha as produced by change, Viparinama Dukkha) rather than ku ku(Dukkha Dukkha) like we suffer.
oso other than Buddha, all are beings (zong sheng) (note i din't use the word 'sentient').
what's zong sheng? it's more than human or ghost or asura or devas or arahats or bodhisattva. it's zong yuan he he er sheng. it in fact mean Beings that are form by different conditions coming together. 41 bodhisattvas are also called zong sheng, as they also have last piece of unknown/ignorance. As long as there's unknown, the mind/thought move. Once it move, it's animated. Only Buddha(s) are not, they are in Great Stillness.
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
My dharma teacher have also mentioned that the "inanimate" things (actually inanimate is not the right world, i meant Non-Sentient Being things) will react. It is very much the same as what you have said.
like that difficult to explain. hav to listen to my master's talk.
He ask Japan Scientists to test the water, rice, apple and other things. give music for it to listen. Show image for it see. Use fragrance to test smell. The water can all react to the different test. etc. Even say rock also can react, but take longer time.
inanimate? is the table 'inanimate'? don't the atoms also vibrate. then u can't say it's inanimate. as if the atoms don't vibrates, the table cannot exist.
that say bodhisattva also cannot step on grasses.
they are [b]like the form realms (note not of the desire realms). They suffer Huai Ku (dukkha as produced by change, Viparinama Dukkha) rather than ku ku(Dukkha Dukkha) like we suffer.
oso other than Buddha, all are beings (zong sheng) (note i din't use the word 'sentient').
what's zong sheng? it's more than human or ghost or asura or devas or arahats or bodhisattva. it's zong yuan he he er sheng. it in fact mean Beings that are form by different conditions coming together. 41 bodhisattvas are also called zong sheng, as they also have last piece of unknown/ignorance. As long as there's unknown, the mind/thought move. Once it move, it's animated. Only Buddha(s) are not, they are in Great Stillness.
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But did your master specifically mentioned 6 sense organs? You mean they also have 7th Consciousness? Will they be reborned and suffer?
BTW I understand that all things arise out of Conditioned Arisings, but to be catergorised under the name of "Sentient Beings"/"(Individual) Being", all the factors of the 12 interdependant links of origination must be present mah. -
6 sense yes. or rather six consciousnesses. but 'organs'? not a proper word.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:But did your master specifically mentioned 6 sense organs? You mean they also have 7th Consciousness? Will they be reborned and suffer?
BTW I understand that all things arise out of Conditioned Arisings, but to be catergorised under the name of "Sentient Beings"/"(Individual) Being", all the factors of the 12 interdependant links of origination must be present mah.
i believe yes, maybe different naming.
we know we have sheng, lao, bing, si(birth, age, disease, death). while matters have sheng, zu, yi, mia (birth, being, change, and death)and world have chen, zu, huai, kong(formation, existence, destruction, and non-existence). formation is their form of rebirth.
6 sense is in 5th of 12 Dependent Origination. consciousness is 3rd. Ignorance is 1st which is mind started.
i think why matter move/form is due to the defile mind. as they are too closely linked. if use yogacara/Mind Only/Wei Shi School, It's all Mind. matter is also Mind. All go back to Mind.
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erm abt the 6 sense consciousness of stone and all theseOriginally posted by sinweiy:6 sense yes. or rather six consciousnesses. but 'organs'? not a proper word.
i believe yes, maybe different naming.
we know we have sheng, lao, bing, si(birth, age, disease, death). while matters have sheng, zu, yi, mia (birth, being, change, and death)and world have chen, zu, huai, kong(formation, existence, destruction, and non-existence). formation is their form of rebirth.
6 sense is in 5th of 12 Dependent Origination. consciousness is 3rd. Ignorance is 1st which is mind started.
i think why matter move/form is due to the defile mind. as they are too closely linked. if use yogacara/Mind Only/Wei Shi School, It's all Mind. matter is also Mind. All go back to Mind.
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did Master Chin Kung reallie said that ?
becos i know Master Chin Kung only said inanimate object
can response but the 6 sense thing doesnt sound right
possible to show me the VCD u get the source from
i would like to know
and i am a learner of Mind-only school
your explanation is much toward pureland
not really explanation of Mind-only
in Weishi(mind-only ) we said
Situation changes by the Consciousness
All does not goes back to mind ,Mind is the creator of all the Good and Bad situation and encounters we have
to calm the mind in deep samadhi ,sees Buddha nature -
Haha..i feel like Dao Sheng would rather talk to the rocks.Originally posted by bohiruci:erm abt the 6 sense consciousness of stone and all these
did Master Chin Kung reallie said that ?
becos i know Master Chin Kung only said inanimate object
can response but the 6 sense thing doesnt sound right
possible to show me the VCD u get the source from
i would like to know
and i am a learner of Mind-only school
your explanation is much toward pureland
not really explanation of Mind-only
in Weishi(mind-only ) we said
Situation changes by the Consciousness
All does not goes back to mind ,Mind is the creator of all the Good and Bad situation and encounters we have
anyway, read the first para if you can read chinese:
http://www.buddedu.com/jingkou/jingkou9.htm
by MCK
because the Thus Come One have Jian Wen Jue Zhi(See, Hear, feeling, Consciousness), then what ever IT creates, all inherit Jian Wen Jue Zhi! (note that nose, tongue, body is combine as feeling).
Like Ocean produce water, Ocean and water both have h2o per se.
No it's not just PL, it's all mahayana schools. u contradict ur saying. All does not goes back to mind?
Shurangama Sutra(wisdom opener) stated Ying1 Xing1 Cheng2 Ti3, Due to the mind, all things/phenomena are form.
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In any religions, the teaching are pure good. It depend on one ability to accept and comprehen the teaching.
It depend on one capability to learn what is taught. No one is special we make mistake and to do mistake is human err.
I came from a family of christian faith. My relative in malaysia and in Singapore are christian, even my sister too.
But, i have vow to take the pureland buddhism. Buddha is my buddy, my friend and my personal idol.
No one can help us if we do not help ourself. 'Statue cannot with stand fire, clay cannot help when thrown in to lake' why pray so hard. This is one teaching from pureland learning. -
you are right.Originally posted by chanmalichan:No one can help us if we do not help ourself. 'Statue cannot with stand fire, clay cannot help when thrown in to lake' why pray so hard. This is one teaching from pureland learning. Clay Bodhisattva cross the river, own self got prob, let along..
ps: though, in recently Tsunami, Statues of Buddha did withstand the tidal waves. Was a miracle.
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another interesting info just heard:
http://www.amtb-aus.org/
Hua Yen, 1441b, 19min.Bodhisattva transfer their merits to all beings, and by doing so itself got benefit. We say gan3 ying4. And why beings gan3(beseech) Buddha/bodhisattva, and they got ying4(reactions). Because Buddha/bodhisattva have huai xiang xing(transfering mind), hence a reaction. Transfering mind is the inherit of Xing De(Original nature?). Everyday we must do transfer so as to cultivate Xiu De(cultivation virtue) to bring out our Xing De.
found the key liao.
In the experiment, water shouldn't have 'mind/heart', and hence have no attachment, dualism, wandering thoughts. but why we generate a good thoughts to them, they also have a good reaction. As we have a gan3, they have ying4. And that ying4 is due to Transfering mind.
This applies to people, when we treat people good, they also smile, when we treat people badly, they get angry. Even the people we don't know. This is but Natural reaction. There's no wandering thoughts.
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Originally posted by sinweiy:Haha..i feel like Dao Sheng would rather talk to the rocks.
anyway, read the first para if you can read chinese:
http://www.buddedu.com/jingkou/jingkou9.htm
by MCK
because the Thus Come One have Jian Wen Jue Zhi(See, Hear, feeling, Consciousness), then what ever IT creates, all inherit Jian Wen Jue Zhi! (note that nose, tongue, body is combine as feeling).
Like Ocean produce water, Ocean and water both have h2o per se.
No it's not just PL, it's all mahayana schools. u contradict ur saying. All does not goes back to mind?
Shurangama Sutra(wisdom opener) stated Ying1 Xing1 Cheng2 Ti3, Due to the mind, all things/phenomena are form.
First i asking u a question it is right for you to answer me
may i know where is the source of the cd that say 6 sense consciousness of stone
Did the Buddha ever mention that
I dun see why u need all this talking abt inanimate object
as long as you are not enlightened ,all this is not important for liberation
yes in Huayen ,we talk abt harmonious living with the environment , but that is becos Buddha explained the totality of the universe and not cutting down trees indiscriminately
coming back to the question at hand, I thought we suppose to leads to liberation toward the concept of emptiness
without emptiness , we are forever attached to matters and form
and could you please show me the proof of the source of MCK talk that stone have 6 sense consciousness?
this is saha world not Lotus Assembly of Pureland ..... 
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Originally posted by bohiruci:
First i asking u a question it is right for you to answer me
may i know where is the source of the cd that say 6 sense consciousness of stone
Did the Buddha ever mention that
I dun see why u need all this talking abt inanimate object
as long as you are not enlightened ,all this is not important for liberation
yes in Huayen ,we talk abt harmonious living with the environment , but that is becos Buddha explained the totality of the universe and not cutting down trees indiscriminately
coming back to the question at hand, I thought we suppose to leads to liberation toward the concept of emptiness
without emptiness , we are forever attached to matters and form
and could you please show me the proof of the source of MCK talk that stone have 6 sense consciousness?
this is saha world not Lotus Assembly of Pureland .....
don't really know what you are trying to say, brother, already post you the link, even translate a bit for you liao. never read?, come back accuse people 'never post the proof'. what's this all abt.
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okay , i cannot see the link ,i am convinced it is said by MCKOriginally posted by sinweiy: don't really know what you are trying to say, brother, already post you the link, even translate a bit for you liao. never read?, come back accuse people 'never post the proof'. what's this all abt.
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but i would said Amitabha Buddhist Society do not represent Huayen and Tientai and Weishi
i have been reading alot of Xian lian Jushi explanation on Amitabha Sutra
and Prof Huang Nian Zu ,so in effect ,Pureland is by itself Pureland
my point is do not digress here
would appreciate if u can start a new topic to post , it will interest others
we digress too much until we forget to look up and realise the initial purpose in our post .. -
Sorry, it might not be a miracle.Originally posted by sinweiy:you are right. Clay Bodhisattva cross the river, own self got prob, let along..
ps: though, in recently Tsunami, Statues of Buddha did withstand the tidal waves. Was a miracle.
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The timing wasn't right for it to go. The 'cause' was there (Tsunami), but lack of faith (may due to strong structure or lack of water force), therefore there is no existence of 'effect'. -
scientific. very good. though how can so many, almost all not get destroy.Originally posted by chanmalichan:Sorry, it might not be a miracle.
The timing wasn't right for it to go. The 'cause' was there (Tsunami), but lack of faith (may due to strong structure or lack of water force), therefore there is no existence of 'effect'.
we have a theory that it's protected by Dharma Protectors.
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cool..