confused ... what do you think of this ? ...
-
well, let me first confess to being an atheist, but this is an interesting site that I've trawled up from the internet, it's huge with many interesting links, which i discovered when I was researching a paper for a philosophy class, I was bored over the weekend and wandered back to this site again and stumbled onto this page here ...
http://www.friesian.com/karma.htm
what do you think of it, how it explains Karma, devine justice, predestination and the consequential fatalism and callousness that the author of the site describes ? ...
I'd like to seek some opinions on this, thank you and regards. -
First let me define the Buddhist aspect of KarmaOriginally posted by Fatum:well, let me first confess to being an atheist, but this is an interesting site that I've trawled up from the internet, it's huge with many interesting links, which i discovered when I was researching a paper for a philosophy class, I was bored over the weekend and wandered back to this site again and stumbled onto this page here ...
http://www.friesian.com/karma.htm
what do you think of it, how it explains Karma, devine justice, predestination and the consequential fatalism and callousness that the author of the site describes ? ...
I'd like to seek some opinions on this, thank you and regards.
It is not dictated by an external forces or by an OmniPotent Beings such as a Buddha
Karma is loosely translated as Law of Cause and Effect
maybe An Eternal Now can provide a good reference to the previous thread we discuss on Karma -
I don't quite agree with the last para of the passage: In Buddhism, traditional belief was that obedience to the Dharma resulted in the accumulation of merit which eventually enabled one to perform the highest levels of Buddhist practice.
Reason because never did our great teacher advocated absolute obedience to dharma in the first place, because that will be an act of superstition. Instead, as the student, we are suppose to understand, and investigate. -
thank you bro,Originally posted by bohiruci:First let me define the Buddhist aspect of Karma
It is not dictated by an external forces or by an OmniPotent Beings such as a Buddha
Karma is loosely translated as Law of Cause and Effect
maybe An Eternal Now can provide a good reference to the previous thread we discuss on Karma
but what I'm particularly bothered about, is the associated fatalism and callousness with this theory, firstly, if one's station in this life time is accrued from the actions of previous life-times, then perhaps there's nothing you can do about it then eh ? ... and if this is also thus, then for everything unfortunate happenstance or circumstance that we find ourselves in, in this life time, we'd have no one to blame but ourselves, eh ? ... this doesn't seem a very satisfying explaination to me about why some are born poor and mained and destitute, while others are born rich and fortunate, but heartless and unsympathetic ...
I'd be glad if you can provide further materials and references to clarify this point, thanks -
go and listen for yourselfOriginally posted by Fatum:thank you bro,
but what I'm particularly bothered about, is the associated fatalism and callousness with this theory, firstly, if one's station in this life time is accrued from the actions of previous life-times, then perhaps there's nothing you can do about it then eh ? ... and if this is also thus, then for everything unfortunate happenstance or circumstance that we find ourselves in, in this life time, we'd have no one to blame but ourselves, eh ? ... this doesn't seem a very satisfying explaination to me about why some are born poor and mained and destitute, while others are born rich and fortunate, but heartless and unsympathetic ...
I'd be glad if you can provide further materials and references to clarify this point, thanks
this topics have been discussed several times
:ven robina courtin on cause and effect mp3
http://www.lamrim.com/venrobina/index.html
What is Kamma?
Kamma is an impersonal, natural law that operates in accordance with our actions. It is a law in itself and does not have any lawgiver. Kamma operates in its own field without the intervention of an external, independent, ruling agent.
Kamma or karma can be put in the simple language of the child: do good and good will come to you, now, and hereafter. Do bad and bad will come to you, now, and hereafter.
In the language of the harvest, kamma can be explained in this way: if you sow good seeds, you will reap a good harvest. If you sow bad seeds, you will reap a bad harvest.
In the language of science, kamma is called the law of cause and effect: every cause has an effect. Another name for this is the law of moral causation. Moral causation works in the moral realm just as the.....
http://www.purifymind.com/BuddBelieve.htm
http://web.singnet.com.sg/~cswoon/karma.html
http://web.singnet.com.sg/~alankhoo/Karma.htm -
Dear Fatum,Originally posted by Fatum:but what I'm particularly bothered about, is the associated fatalism and callousness with this theory, firstly, if one's station in this life time is accrued from the actions of previous life-times, then perhaps there's nothing you can do about it then eh ? ... and if this is also thus, then for everything unfortunate happenstance or circumstance that we find ourselves in, in this life time, we'd have no one to blame but ourselves, eh ? ... this doesn't seem a very satisfying explaination to me about why some are born poor and mained and destitute, while others are born rich and fortunate, but heartless and unsympathetic ...
The link you provided seemed to explain Karma from the perspective of Hinduism. While the Buddha borrowed Hindu terms as pple then were already familiar with those terms, the Buddha's teaching and interpretation of these terms were often different. Karma and Dharma as explained in the website are different from the Buddhist Karma and Dharma.
Talking about Karma - the Buddha emphasized its difference from fatalism. The Buddhist idea of Karma is beyond the extremes of eternalism and nihilism. Karma, as the others explained, is not about fixed destiny, it loosely means cause, condition and effect. It means past causes, together with present conditions (which are also a result of past causes), gather and come to fruition, which in turn become causes and conditions in the future. Karma is a very complex subject, which cannot be fully comprehended by a common person.
Karma is very scientific. It is like... if you place an egg into boiling water, and u pray very hard that it won't be cooked, after 10 min, u check, and it's cooked! that's it - the cause being u placing the egg into boiling water; the conditions being there is sufficient gas to ensure the water continues to boil, the pot bearing the water isn't broken, there is sufficient oxygen in the air to ensure u're alive to witness the cooked egg etc; thus the fruit of the egg being cooked.
U may have certain positive/negative seeds, but without the right conditions, they can't come to fruition. The results may be postive/negative, but depending on how we react to these results, we create positive/negative karma. For eg, both of us may be having headache, but I react to the headache by cursing/swearing at the pple around me or feeling so much self-pity and getting depressed over it; whereas you react to the headache by thinking that just this headache already makes u suffer so much, not to mention the kind of pain and suffering that other pple go thru when they suffer from famines, chronic illnesses, starvation, wars, disasters, when they get killed, etc... and then with that understanding u empathize with these suffering pple and even generate the wish that you could help to bear some of their suffering on their behalf..... Well, same headache, but 2 different reactions, thus 2 different karmic implications.
Once there was a nun Ven Tenzin Palmo who talked about karma. I can't remember all her exact words, but I tried to write down what I recalled. I'll like to share her words with u, but really sorry if I misinterpreted Ven Tenzin Palmo in any ways...
"What we experience now are due to the ripening of past karma. There's nothing we can do about that. However, we have the choice of how we want to react to our current circumstances, which in turn plants the seeds for future ripening. You have the option of reacting skilfully or unskilfully. When you understand this, you are fearless, because no matter what happens, every situation that you face presents to you as an opportunity to plant positive seeds and engage in the spiritual practice."
- based on what I remembered from Ven's talk, may not be exactly what she meant.
Another thing to emphasize, when Buddhism talks about karma, yes it's about accumulating positive karma and eliminating negative karma, but it's NOT just about that. When we do negative deeds, we will not be punished by any being; likewise when we perform good deeds, Buddha will not give us a gold medal.
Why karma is being taught - for us to understand that our actions bear fruits and to be more mindful of it. However, the purpose of engaging in Buddhist practice is for enlightenment, which is beyond the notions and extremes of good, bad, not good not bad, both good and bad. The aim of the Buddhist practice is NOT to become a moral person, but rather to transcend beyond the societal concept of morality and to accomplish the wisdom that liberates.
As Chandrakirti beautifully expressed,
"Those who are unwise will do a lot of nonvirtuous things,
And as a consequence they will go to hell.
Those who are unwise will do a lot of virtuous things,
And then they will go to heaven.
Those who are wise go beyond virtuous and nonvirtuous,
And then they will attain liberation."
More reading if u're interested, from http://deerparkgathering.org/introduction.html
Hope those ramblings help, and pls forgive me if they don't. -
Yup.. I agreed. In fact Buddha had dealt with the Problem with Evil on Creatorism/idea of God: How the Brahma believed He was God?Originally posted by bohiruci:First let me define the Buddhist aspect of Karma
It is not dictated by an external forces or by an OmniPotent Beings such as a Buddha
Karma is loosely translated as Law of Cause and Effect
maybe An Eternal Now can provide a good reference to the previous thread we discuss on Karma
If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Why does he order such misfortune
If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Why prevail deceit, lies and ignorance
And he such inequity and injustice create?
If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Then an evil master is he, (O Aritta)
Knowing what's right did let wrong prevail!
- The Buddha
Karma is clearly not fatalism.
It is not Nihilism (ucchedavada) ; it is not fatalism (pubbekatahetu vada) it is not Creatorism (issaranimmana vada). Then what is Buddhism ? It is a kiriyavada, kammavada, hetuvada, a paticcasarnuppanna dhamma, and an anupubbadhamma. Kriyavada connotes cause and effect, as for instance from milk is produced curd. The variations of absolute predestination, creatorism and nihilism are rejected by the Lord Buddha. He found the Universe is not the product of Chance, or is caused by the will of a foolish ignorant despotic phantom Creator, or due to absolute predestination, but the result of unerring natural Immutable Law of Cause and Effect.
If you smoke 30 cigarrettes a day, when you found out you have cancer, you don't blame it on Fatalism (I am predestined to have cancer so it doesn't matter whether I smoke or not smoke!), you blame it on your unwholesome actions.
Furthermore... those who have created very very bad karma may still be able to change. Through deep repentance, seeking virtuousness, seeking refuge in the Three Treasures (Buddha, Dharma, Sangha), practising the dharma and attaining enlightenment/liberation.
There is a true story of Buddha's disciple called Angulimala who attained enlightenment as an Arhant. Before that, he went on a killing spree and killed 999 persons. He definitely have created enough karma to suffer in lower realms for a very very long period of time. Fortunately, Buddha out of compassion intervened him, led him to the path of Liberation. Angulimala deeply repented on his earlier actions, and not only did he not have to endure very long period of suffering afterlife, he entered into Nirvana.
The very interesting story can be found here: Murderer of almost a thousand men... saved by Buddha. -
Changing Poison into Medicine & Transforming OneÂ’s Karma
The term “changing poison into medicine” appears in the Daichido Ron, a work by Nagarjuna, an Indian Mahayana Buddhist scholar.
In it, Nagarjuna states that an excellent physician is one who can skillfully compound originally poisonous substances & transform them into medicine that function to cure illnesses. Using this example, Nagarjuna portrays the great power of the Mystic Law which enables people of the 2 vehicle & evil people to attain Buddhahood. These people had been condemned in the provisional teachings as those who can never attain enlightenment.
Nichiren Daishonin interprets this statement in the Daichido Ron in this way: “Bodisattva Nagarjuna commented on the meaning of the 1 character ‘Myo’ by using the example of great physician who transforms poison into medicine. What does poison refer to? It refers to the 3 paths of earthly desires, karma & suffering. What does medicine refers to, then? It refers to the 3 virtues of property of the Law, wisdom & emancipation. Transforming poison into medicine therefore means to transform the 3 paths into the 3 virtues.”
In other words, “poison” refers to the 3 paths of earthly desires, karma & suffering while “medicine” refers to the 3 virtues of the property of the Law (ultimate truth), wisdom (wisdom to be awakened to the true entity of all phenomena) & emancipation (to free oneself from the suffering of life & death). In this way, “transforming poison into medicine” refers to the power of the Mystic Law which transforms the 3 paths into the 3 virtues. As this is a complete transformation from 1 extreme to another, in the eyes of a common mortal, this transformation is perceived as something “mystic” (Myo). This concept of “changing poison into medicine” is based on the same principle as the teachings of “earthly desires are enlightenment” & “sufferings of life & death are nirvana.”
In the context of our daily lives, “poison” corresponds to the various suffering & problems that we encounter in our journey of life. When we confront these sufferings directly instead of avoiding them & challenge them based on faith, we can transform these hardships into opportunities to further develop our lives.
Through this wonderful power of the Mystic Law, the transformation of ones’ karma is also possible. Buddhism perceives whether one will be happy or not based on the understanding of the Law of Cause & Effect. In other words, Buddism teaches that our present life condition is the effect of causes that we’ve created through our words, thoughts & deeds (karma) in our past existences as we go through the cycle of life & death. In the same way, our present actions will become the cause for the effect to be manifested in the future. For example, it’s expounded in the Shinjikan Sutra, “If you want to understand the causes that existed in the past, look at the result as they’re manifested in the present. And if you want to understand what results will be manifested in the future, look at the causes that exist in the present.”
The karmic causes created in the past existences that are manifesting as both positive & negative effects in the present lifetime are called “karma”. Karma can be positive or negative. Naturally, the matter of concern here is the negative karma which manifests itself as various forms of unhappiness.
According to the provisional teachings, causes created in past existences cannot be transformed & therefore, one has to endure through its effects. It expounds that all one can do is to conduct many good deeds & accumulate good fortune so that in his next existence, he would be able to enjoy their effects.
However, the teachings of the Lotus Sutra & Nichiren DaishoninÂ’s Buddhism expounds that through the great beneficial power of the Mystic Law, weÂ’ll be granted the same benefits & virtues accrued from the practice of Shakyamuni. For this reason, we can transform our negative karma which gives rise to various unhappiness in our present existence without having to wait till the next lifetime & thus establish a life of happiness.
In addition, although Buddhism teaches that actions taken in our past existences (karma) are manifested as effects in our present lifetime in various forms, this doesnÂ’t necessarily mean that all fortune & misfortune we experience in this lifetime are entirely the results of our karma accumulated from past existences.
For example, with regard to sickness, the Daishonin gives 6 causes, most of which are factors other than karma. The Daishonin says, “There’re 6 causes of illness: 1) disharmony of the 4 elements; 2) improper eating or drinking; 3) inappropriate practice of seated meditation; 4) attack by demons; 5) work of devils; & 6) the effects of karma.”
In this way, there’re many instances when one’s suffering is caused by one’s carelessness or erroneous judgment. Therefore, it can be said that it’s incorrect to rigidly attribute everything that happens in life to “karma”. The purpose of practicing Buddhism is to manifest our wisdom which in turn forms the basis that prevents us from going astray in life. -
Interesting topic on karma
One common misuse of the concept of karma I have though I have seen around is using karma in judging others.
Meaning, lets say I think this person is bad, therefore, this person shall suffer retribution or if the person has gone through a period of suffering, therefore, its karma.
What irks me really, are two things. Personal judgement and attributing suffering to bad karma. Is it as simple as this? What are you guys thoughts on this? -
Those who are suffering are indeed suffering his bad karma or retribution, but it may due to his past life karma. On the other hand, there are many unvirtuous people who did lots of evil but his karma has yet to ripen in this lifetime. It is not because he did not have karma but it is just that the 'yuan' for karma to ripen is not there yet.Originally posted by laurence82:Interesting topic on karma
One common misuse of the concept of karma I have though I have seen around is using karma in judging others.
Meaning, lets say I think this person is bad, therefore, this person shall suffer retribution or if the person has gone through a period of suffering, therefore, its karma.
What irks me really, are two things. Personal judgement and attributing suffering to bad karma. Is it as simple as this? What are you guys thoughts on this?
The conclusion is: we never know. Therefore we should not pass any judgement. We shouldn't even judge whether he is bad. Buddhism should not have this kind of 'shi4-fei1' type of view. -
reminds me of reading Liao Fan's 4 lesson.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Those who are suffering are indeed suffering his bad karma or retribution, but it may due to his past life karma. On the other hand, there are many unvirtuous people who did lots of evil but his karma has yet to ripen in this lifetime. It is not because he did not have karma but it is just that the 'yuan' for karma to ripen is not there yet.
The conclusion is: we never know. Therefore we should not pass any judgement. We shouldn't even judge whether he is bad. Buddhism should not have this kind of 'shi4-fei1' type of view.If we were to examine goodness closely, we would find that there are many different kinds
http://www.etext.org/Religious.Texts/Misc/4teachen.html#chap_2
What is real goodness and false goodness?
What is honest goodness and crooked goodness?
What is hidden goodness and visible goodness?
What seems to be goodness but is actually not, and what does not appear to be goodness but actually is
What is improper goodness and proper goodness?
What is half goodness and full goodness?
What is big goodness and small goodness?
What is difficult goodness and easy goodness?
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