Do not Condemn or Insult Other Religions
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Originally posted by laurence82:
I think a little contradictory between two statements. First you say its 'grey area' to condemn people who insulted other religions, then later you say targeting people who sully other religions is ok, but not overzealous preachers who are pushy.
By the way, if anyone notice, [b]condemning people who insulted other religions have some gray or shared area with condemning other religions.
I think many need to be aware of the distinction here. Essentially, truth-based faiths are different from faiths like Buddhism, where its part of their doctrine to evangelise, albeit overzealously. Its also essential to their doctrine that other religions are bad or false. By questioning their actions, there is a possibility, you are using your own values to override their values and in the proces, judge them.
My personal take on this? I have so far personally target people who sully other religions, but not overzealous preachers who are pushy, but not to the point of condemning other religions.
And from the way this thread goes, most of the time you guys are talking about Christians and Christianity. But, pardon me, my personal view is that its inappropriate for a forum like a Buddhism forum. I guess its allright to discuss the differences in the values upheld by these two faiths, but the mood has gone to Christians bashing and using our values to put their religions in the negative light, for example, pooh pooh their view that their faith is the true one.
We may have done what we dont want others to do to us, that is, to a bunch of non believers discussing in full length about other religion.
I hope I have made add some valuable points to the discucssions.
[/b]
I think insulting other religions has definitely crossed the line. Being pushy about one's religion is still ok - as long as it did not become annoying. I think there is little we can do about them being pushy. We can kindly reject them or tolerate them. But if he has gone over the line to insult, condemn other people's religions, that is against Singapore multi racialism and religious tolerance.
On the other hand, Buddhism can work more to promote its own teachings.. as long as not to the level of being pushy or overzealous. -
Yeap, contradictory points can lie on the grey area, thats why i said its my personal view, not neccessary the most logical view.
I should have added that it also depends on actions, speech and language used.
Consider this, 'my faith says that your faiths worship false gods' compared to 'you are worshipping demons'
in many ways, these are the same thing fundamentally, but the first guy qualify by stating its his faith's beliefs
I tend to cut the first guys some slack -
wah, very sensitive arhOriginally posted by neutral_onliner:Not surprisingly, in due course, society revolted against such revolting religious ways. Europe today is mostly a museum of churches, many abandoned and used for secular purposes. The church-going population has drastically dropped, even then restricted to mostly old people. New religions are becoming attractive since people still feel a need for something spiritual. -
sensitive ? ok i pull my 'brake' liao ...
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Felt like responding to some of the postings in this thread:
1. Shade said that all religions are the same because there is one God.
To correct this, actually according to Buddhism, there is no God (the teaching of anatma). There are worldly gods/devas which are born into the heavenly realm due to their past merits, but upon the exhaustion of their merits, these gods/devas will still continue to take rebirth like everyone else. In this aspect, Buddhism is therefore different from the monotheistic faiths (e.g. Christianity, Islam...) and polytheistic faiths (e.g. Hinduism, Shenism/Taoism).
2. Eternal Now said that according to Buddhism, Good will be overcome by Evil.
I think you meant that Buddhism in this world would still come to an end, as prophesied by the Buddha. Actually, it's not just Buddhism as a religion that will come to an end. The Buddha proclaimed that all compounded phenomena would eventually come to an end, because of IMPERMANENCE. Buddhism as a religion, is also a compounded phenomena, thus also subject to impermanence. All things so-called good and evil are also subject to impermanence - the moment good/evil appears, it will definitely also be ruined and destroyed one day. Though Buddhism as a religion will be destroyed, this truth of impermanence - the Dharma - will remain.
Ultimately, Buddhism teaches us to not be stuck with the so-called "good and evil", to recognize with wisdom that "good" and "evil" exist dependently upon each other (i.e. "good" and "evil" cannot exist separately), and therefore "good" and "evil" do not truly exist on their own, and are devoid of any true value...
Therefore Buddhists are not particularly afraid of the "good" being "overcome by evil", or jump in joy that the "evil" is "overcome by good". These are recognized as merely temporal bliss.
The "true bliss" is Wisdom reality the true nature of reality as what it is - i.e. Enlightenment/Liberation. -
Well, they are just interpreting according to their religion teachings,Originally posted by laurence82:Yeap, contradictory points can lie on the grey area, thats why i said its my personal view, not neccessary the most logical view.
I should have added that it also depends on actions, speech and language used.
Consider this, 'my faith says that your faiths worship false gods' compared to 'you are worshipping demons'
what they think or say is not the truth and I am glad that Buddhism is not about one almighty creator and talk about heaven and hell and the god's anointed kingdom. Of all the religions I know, all focuses on their gods or one god and their teachings not really that different from one another.
From my personal opinion, its really not captivating and arousing to the intelligence to say the least as it needs an unquestioning blind faith to the almighty one and there is nothing really new in the teachings, like everything, the entire cosmos, human races were created by god and after you die, if you have accepted the god, you will be reborn in the god's heaven forever.
Its refreshing to know that Buddhism is more than this, especially at this day and age, where science and technology revealed more than god revealed to us. I also heard that Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism, and that Buddhism merely refined or improved the concept of transmigration and kamma from Hinduism.
Although kamma and rebirth were already in existence in India before the advent of Buddhism, the buddhist teachings (Dhamma) excelled and improved the concept of kamma and rebirth to a new level not heard before and self liberation rather than relying on salvation externally, like god.
One sentence to describe Buddhism among the religions in this world, a lotus that is so beautiful and refreshing , that standout in a pond. -
The Buddha never confirmed or denied the existence of gods because this kind of questioning does not lead to happiness. He did make it clear that gods, if they literally exist, created nothing and are merely beings trapped in a different realm of suffering. When the good fortune created by their past behavior is used up these beings will be thrown back into a lower realm and continue in the endless cycle of existence.
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Yes, Buddhism is a fresh breath to this boisterous and immoral world like today. I shudder to think what is it like 50 years from now, will the world be a better place to live or degenerate?Originally posted by _wanderer_:Felt like responding to some of the postings in this thread:
1. Shade said that all religions are the same because there is one God.
To correct this, actually according to Buddhism, there is no God (the teaching of anatma). There are worldly gods/devas which are born into the heavenly realm due to their past merits, but upon the exhaustion of their merits, these gods/devas will still continue to take rebirth like everyone else. In this aspect, Buddhism is therefore different from the monotheistic faiths (e.g. Christianity, Islam...) and polytheistic faiths (e.g. Hinduism, Shenism/Taoism).
2. Eternal Now said that according to Buddhism, Good will be overcome by Evil.
I think you meant that Buddhism in this world would still come to an end, as prophesied by the Buddha. Actually, it's not just Buddhism as a religion that will come to an end. The Buddha proclaimed that all compounded phenomena would eventually come to an end, because of IMPERMANENCE. Buddhism as a religion, is also a compounded phenomena, thus also subject to impermanence. All things so-called good and evil are also subject to impermanence - the moment good/evil appears, it will definitely also be ruined and destroyed one day. Though Buddhism as a religion will be destroyed, this truth of impermanence - the Dharma - will remain.
Ultimately, Buddhism teaches us to not be stuck with the so-called "good and evil", to recognize with wisdom that "good" and "evil" exist dependently upon each other (i.e. "good" and "evil" cannot exist separately), and therefore "good" and "evil" do not truly exist on their own, and are devoid of any true value...
Therefore Buddhists are not particularly afraid of the "good" being "overcome by evil", or jump in joy that the "evil" is "overcome by good". These are recognized as merely temporal bliss.
The "true bliss" is Wisdom reality the true nature of reality as what it is - i.e. Enlightenment/Liberation.
Most other religions all spoke of their one god and how their god created everything and god will save them and bring them to their heaven.
This kind of teachings, sad to say, is becoming obsolete and outdated in this day and age cos of science and techology revealed more. Maybe 2000 years ago, most people would have accepted this teaching whole heartedly, but people are getting quite disillusioned as more people are getting well educated and able to challenge conventional truths and practises.
I once asked a friend, if god created us, who created god, as surely god can't appear out of nothing, guess what he told me? He said when I die, god will answer my question. -
I think you misunderstand. I didnt say there was exclusively one God. I said all came from the same source. Buddhism teaches on self realisation and overcoming your human duality. For what are humans? They are but a spark of God. Once you attain self realisation through the overcoming of your duality, you would know the truth.Originally posted by _wanderer_:Felt like responding to some of the postings in this thread:
1. Shade said that all religions are the same because there is one God.
To correct this, actually according to Buddhism, there is no God (the teaching of anatma). There are worldly gods/devas which are born into the heavenly realm due to their past merits, but upon the exhaustion of their merits, these gods/devas will still continue to take rebirth like everyone else. In this aspect, Buddhism is therefore different from the monotheistic faiths (e.g. Christianity, Islam...) and polytheistic faiths (e.g. Hinduism, Shenism/Taoism).
2. Eternal Now said that according to Buddhism, Good will be overcome by Evil.
I think you meant that Buddhism in this world would still come to an end, as prophesied by the Buddha. Actually, it's not just Buddhism as a religion that will come to an end. The Buddha proclaimed that all compounded phenomena would eventually come to an end, because of IMPERMANENCE. Buddhism as a religion, is also a compounded phenomena, thus also subject to impermanence. All things so-called good and evil are also subject to impermanence - the moment good/evil appears, it will definitely also be ruined and destroyed one day. Though Buddhism as a religion will be destroyed, this truth of impermanence - the Dharma - will remain.
Ultimately, Buddhism teaches us to not be stuck with the so-called "good and evil", to recognize with wisdom that "good" and "evil" exist dependently upon each other (i.e. "good" and "evil" cannot exist separately), and therefore "good" and "evil" do not truly exist on their own, and are devoid of any true value...
Therefore Buddhists are not particularly afraid of the "good" being "overcome by evil", or jump in joy that the "evil" is "overcome by good". These are recognized as merely temporal bliss.
The "true bliss" is Wisdom reality the true nature of reality as what it is - i.e. Enlightenment/Liberation. -
I was more of refering to the degenerating trend of humanity. You have heard that there will come a time where morality becomes null, there is chaos and upheavel, whereby one blade of grass can be used to kill.Originally posted by _wanderer_:Felt like responding to some of the postings in this thread:
1. Shade said that all religions are the same because there is one God.
To correct this, actually according to Buddhism, there is no God (the teaching of anatma). There are worldly gods/devas which are born into the heavenly realm due to their past merits, but upon the exhaustion of their merits, these gods/devas will still continue to take rebirth like everyone else. In this aspect, Buddhism is therefore different from the monotheistic faiths (e.g. Christianity, Islam...) and polytheistic faiths (e.g. Hinduism, Shenism/Taoism).[/quote]
I felt like replying, but then I think he didn't really remember what we told him previously
[quote]2. Eternal Now said that according to Buddhism, Good will be overcome by Evil.
I think you meant that Buddhism in this world would still come to an end, as prophesied by the Buddha. Actually, it's not just Buddhism as a religion that will come to an end. The Buddha proclaimed that all compounded phenomena would eventually come to an end, because of IMPERMANENCE. Buddhism as a religion, is also a compounded phenomena, thus also subject to impermanence. All things so-called good and evil are also subject to impermanence - the moment good/evil appears, it will definitely also be ruined and destroyed one day. Though Buddhism as a religion will be destroyed, this truth of impermanence - the Dharma - will remain.
Ultimately, Buddhism teaches us to not be stuck with the so-called "good and evil", to recognize with wisdom that "good" and "evil" exist dependently upon each other (i.e. "good" and "evil" cannot exist separately), and therefore "good" and "evil" do not truly exist on their own, and are devoid of any true value...
Therefore Buddhists are not particularly afraid of the "good" being "overcome by evil", or jump in joy that the "evil" is "overcome by good". These are recognized as merely temporal bliss.
The "true bliss" is Wisdom reality the true nature of reality as what it is - i.e. Enlightenment/Liberation.
This is the time which 'Evil has overcome Good'. Of course, just a temporary phase. -
Sorry for misquoting.Originally posted by shade343:I think you misunderstand. I didnt say there was exclusively one God. I said all came from the same source. Buddhism teaches on self realisation and overcoming your human duality. For what are humans? They are but a spark of God. Once you attain self realisation through the overcoming of your duality, you would know the truth.
One source, and the spark of God. -- that's not Buddhist teaching.
Hmm if u meant that Buddhism teachings about one source and that we're spark of God, then I'm very surprised. I think much has been written about the errors of believing in "God/One Source/True Self".
One could read more through the following links:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/godidea.html
Or download from http://www.buddhanet.net/ebooks_s.htm
the e-book "The Buddha and His Teachings" Ven. Narada Maha Thera and refer to Chapter 23. -
Thanks for clarifying.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I was more of refering to the degenerating trend of humanity. You have heard that there will come a time where morality becomes null, there is chaos and upheavel, whereby one blade of grass can be used to kill.
This is the time which 'Evil has overcome Good'. Of course, just a temporary phase. -
Breytonharge seems to think otherwise, IMO.Originally posted by laurence82:By the way, if anyone notice, condemning people who insulted other religions have some gray or shared area with condemning other religions.
I think many need to be aware of the distinction here. Essentially, truth-based faiths are different from faiths like Buddhism, where its part of their doctrine to evangelise, albeit overzealously. Its also essential to their doctrine that other religions are bad or false. By questioning their actions, there is a possibility, you are using your own values to override their values and in the proces, judge them.
My personal take on this? I have so far personally target people who sully other religions, but not overzealous preachers who are pushy, but not to the point of condemning other religions.
And from the way this thread goes, most of the time you guys are talking about Christians and Christianity. But, pardon me, my personal view is that its inappropriate for a forum like a Buddhism forum. I guess its allright to discuss the differences in the values upheld by these two faiths, but the mood has gone to Christians bashing and using our values to put their religions in the negative light, for example, pooh pooh their view that their faith is the true one.
We may have done what we dont want others to do to us, that is, to a bunch of non believers discussing in full length about other religion.
I hope I have made add some valuable points to the discucssions.
And yes, there can only be harmony in the world when all people decide that if it harm no one, do what you will. -
meaning u support my stand while brey does not?Originally posted by iveco:Breytonharge seems to think otherwise, IMO.
And yes, there can only be harmony in the world when all people decide that if it harm no one, do what you will.
thanks iveco, for your support -
Since when have I been a supporter of yours?Originally posted by laurence82:meaning u support my stand while brey does not?
thanks iveco, for your support 
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The do no harm concept align closely with my view on sullying people religionOriginally posted by iveco:Since when have I been a supporter of yours?
I am glad we think alike -
Wicca respects others' right to choose their religions. It does not condemn those who left to become Christians, Buddhists or Muslims.Originally posted by laurence82:The do no harm concept align closely with my view on sullying people religion
I am glad we think alike -
True, and as you can see, in this thread, just for point sake, Buddhism doesnt condemn people who leftOriginally posted by iveco:Wicca respects others' right to choose their religions. It does not condemn those who left to become Christians, Buddhists or Muslims. -
You warn against condemning Christianity here but you are doing the opposite in other subforums. So much for consistency.Originally posted by laurence82:True, and as you can see, in this thread, just for point sake, Buddhism doesnt condemn people who left -
Technically wrongOriginally posted by iveco:You warn against condemning Christianity here but you are doing the opposite in other subforums. So much for consistency.
Condemning Christians or condeming Christianity?
Just follow, for examples, Chin Eng, MC, Icemoon and many others posts and you will see how Christian doctrines are warped by Christians themselves, to the point that they have to be challenged and refuted by Christians themselves. Using the faith as a shield is not a good defence for warping the doctrines.
Read this thread, about being dogmatic, and you can see where i am coming from. -
Even if I think many Muslim clerics are wrong about their religion, I refrain from condemning them outright. I still feel that we can help them and should not give up hope about getting them back on track.Originally posted by laurence82:Technically wrong
Condemning Christians or condeming Christianity?
Just follow, for examples, Chin Eng, MC, Icemoon and many others posts and you will see how Christian doctrines are warped by Christians themselves, to the point that they have to be challenged and refuted by Christians themselves. Using the faith as a shield is not a good defence for warping the doctrines.
Read this thread, about being dogmatic, and you can see where i am coming from. -
CheersOriginally posted by iveco:Even if I think many Muslim clerics are wrong about their religion, I refrain from condemning them outright. I still feel that we can help them and should not give up hope about getting them back on track.
You have just pointed out one conundrum many faces
To hammer the facts in or to let it be?
Remember, extremists, not the general populations, are not concerned with humanity or values of lives. Matyrdom is seen as a good way to achieve salvation.
If you do not remove clerics erroneous belief, and they choose matrydom, therefore, you, your family and friends are all in harm's way.
What would you do? -
Don't forget that the believers can choose to disagree with them.Originally posted by laurence82:Cheers
You have just pointed out one conundrum many faces
To hammer the facts in or to let it be?
Remember, extremists, not the general populations, are not concerned with humanity or values of lives. Matyrdom is seen as a good way to achieve salvation.
If you do not remove clerics erroneous belief, and they choose matrydom, therefore, you, your family and friends are all in harm's way.
What would you do?
There are many points that I do not agree with the Pope, but I have not been excommunicated. Therefore I conclude it is safe not to follow the priests blindly. -
Yesh, but remember, if extremists choose to disagree with me and want to harm my family and my friends, then how?Originally posted by iveco:Don't forget that the believers can choose to disagree with them.
There are many points that I do not agree with the Pope, but I have not been excommunicated. Therefore I conclude it is safe not to follow the priests blindly.
Not agreeing is one thing, but not agreeing and yet wanting to continue harming you and others, is a different issue.
I am not sure, but the RCs are more traditional, and the Protestants are more fundamental.
I would have thought that you would have more disagreement with the Protestants than RCs