Do not Condemn or Insult Other Religions
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Buddhism does not believe in the existence of an everlasting and unchanging soul. If one accepts the existence of a soul, then one is not a Buddhist with right understanding, but a deviant teaching believer.
Admittedly, in the eyes of common people, apart from the materialist-only believers, most will believe that everyone has an everlasting and unchanging soul
Religions such as Christianity, Islam, Jainism and Taoism etc, each to a certain extent subscribe to the idea that soul exists. They believe according to the good and evil that one commits, upon death oneÂ’s soul will be judged either by the heavenly god or Lord Hades. The good ones will ascend to the heavens whereas the evil ones will descent to hell.
In China, among the masses not only is this superstitious belief about the soul deeply entrenched, there is also a most serious misconception that upon death, the ghost/spirit form that one can take is the soul itself. In Chinese traditional beliefs, this relationship between soul and the ghost presents a knotty and inseparable problem.In China there are many traditional beliefs and sayings. Commonly, souls are used as bridges to explain the transitional state between human rebirths. Birth is seen as the reincarnation of soul and death represents the departure of the soul from a physical body. In general, the relationship between soul and the human body can be viewed as equivalent to that of a house and a house-owner. When the old house is broken, one moves into a new house. While the house can get old, built, moved in or moved out, the house-owner does not change. This implies the belief that the human represents a soul having put on suit of flesh body. While the flesh body can be repeatedly changed, the soul remains unchanged, i.e. belief that soul is the principle entity in our transmigration in the cycle of birth and death.
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The so called 'soul', or 7th consciousness that brings you to the next life, is not the 'True Self', but your egoic/false self. It is only by dissolving this 7th consciousness will your True Self be revealed. Which is also why it is possible to attain enlightenment and end the cycle of rebirth in Samsara. Buddhas and Bodhisattvas do not take birth due to their 7th consciousness but due to their great compassion and vows.Originally posted by shade343:Hmm, I thought buddhism teaches on self realisation? That is to discover who you really are?
Cease your False Self and your True Self lives! -
Buddha teaches this? Its mention in the holy books?
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Why is Consciousness (and anything else that can be said on Earth) said not to be a fixed entity, and there is no Self? Because Impermanency is a universal law -
Life (Self) is nothing other than the continuous flow of the Now Moment.
The Now Moment ceases as it arises. This moment must completely ceased
and serves as the CAUSE for the next moment to arise.
Therefore Self is a process of series Self1, Self2, Self3, Self4, Self5, Self6...etc
A fixed entity 'Self' does not exist, what really exists is a momentary Self.
Under deep meditation, one is able to observe and sense the karmic and mental factors from moment to moment,
it is these factors that are succeeded from moment to moment and life and life but not a fixed entity.
When the karmic and mental factors subsides, it is known as "The True and Only (and Inherently egoless) Conscious Light (Itself)".
- Thusness -
In truth, right faith Buddhism does not accept this set of view on the soul. This is because from the principles of “conditioned existence” and “conditioned extinction”, this view is not possible. From the standpoint that “all conditioned phenomena are impermanent”, one can recognize that all things are conditioned and impermanent. Not only does this apply to the materialistic domain, even the spiritual domain is also as such. Using the naked eye commonly gives the wrong impression that all things are real and unchanging. However, if high-tech sophisticated instruments are used instead, these things can then be detected to be evolving all the time. In when continuous arising is used, it actually implies that in the backdrop of every birth there is also continuous death, pointing to continuous changes or continuous evolution.Originally posted by shade343:Hmm, I thought buddhism teaches on self realisation? That is to discover who you really are?
After having taken note that all physical phenomena in the physical material domain are ever-continuously arising, looking at the mental phenomena in the spiritual domain would be a lot easier to come to the same conclusion. This is because the arising of mental formations is the result of changes in the spiritual state of the mind. It is this change in the mental formations that brought about the urge/inclination to do good or do evil, which in turn will then vice-versely influence the subsequent mental tendencies. And it is based on this recurring and dependent cycle of relationships between mental conditions and its results that will dictate our short-term experience and long term future. -
neutral_onliner, perhaps you have misunderstood the Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhist belief of the Antarabhava and Bardo. Zhong Ying Sheng is not a Chinese superstition, it is in fact, found in all forms of Buddhism including Theravada, although emphasized and elaborated more in the Mahayana sutras. It is not contradictory at all at the non-self teaching of the Buddha.
Please read: The Intermediate Stage After Death (article)Originally posted by An Eternal Now:For most of us ordinary beings, when we die we will transform into an Intermediate bardo state for up to 49 days before we are reborned.
I have uploaded 3 pages regarding on the Antarabhava written by my master Shen Kai:
Even different kinds people have forms of Antarabhava! (zhong ying sheng)
This is generally the Mahayana view, and is also supported by the Bardo teachings of Tibetan Buddhism.
As for Theravada, what I know is that the suttas does not reject, but instead, supports the idea of Antarabhava. It is particularly the Abhidhamma which rejects Antarabhava, however, it should be noted that the Abhidhamma is a latter commentary and not a discourse given by Buddha himself.
Apart from many other fundamentalist Theravadins who accept the Anatarabhava, the famous Theravada Venerable Ajahn Brahmavamso, the Australian monk who just came to Singapore to give a discourse, himself accepts the existence of the Anatarabhava due to his own experience dealing with the dead.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Apart from these articles, my dharma teachers, especially my Taiwanese dharma teacher had first hand encounters with such bardo beings and have given some description and sharing about them previously.
Not only has my taiwanese dharma teacher seen for himself the antarabhava, he has his own experience of certain bardo stages before reviving again. Meaning he has died and revived. If i say the whole story here, maybe too unbelievable.Originally posted by sinweiy:ic, they do have Antarabhava now do they(Thervadin)...interesting. any more info on 'Antarabhava'? i mean in sutra or pali or sanskirt?
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
[b]From the Theravadin Perspective
From http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/lofiversi...php/t17918.html,
Basically, Ajahn Brahm (and the forest monks of Ajahn Chah) believe
there is an antarabhava, partly from the numerous accounts in the
Suttas, and according to Ajahn his personal experiences dealing with
the dying in Thailand (I have not inquired further on this). Hoping he
has written on this and will be published.
From http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/7751?viscount=100,
> >*Intermediate State between Existences*
> >
> >In contrast to the orthodox stand, there is significant Pali canonical
evidence strongly suggestive of an intermediate state between one existence and
another, a view supported by Theravada fundamentalists. Various suttas from the
Nikayas clearly talk about a state of existence before actual rebirth as a
another sentient being. Let me quote some examples from them.
> >
> >In Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta (MN 3 the Buddha states that for conception to
occur, one of the conditions is that the being to be reborn (gandhabba) has to
be present at the moment of union between the father and mother. Here, it is
implicitly stated that there is an intermediate state of existence between death
in the previous existence and rebirth in the next.
> >
> >There are various references to the rebirths of bodhisattas as well as other
beings, which also imply as much. According to Sampasadaniya Sutta (DN 2 and
Sangiti Sutta (DN 33), some beings "enter the mother's womb unknowing, stay
there unknowing and leave it unknowing", while others "enter the mother's womb
knowing, stay there knowing, and leave it unknowing". One who "enters the
mother's womb knowing, stays there knowing and leaves it knowing� is, according
to the commentary, a bodhisatta in its last rebirth. This is confirmed by
several suttas that describe the bodhisatta's moment of entry into the mother's
womb as "being mindful and fully aware�. [Mahapadana Sutta (DN 14);
Acchariya-abbhuta Sutta (MN 123); Pathama-tathagata-acchariya Sutta (AN 4: 27);
Bhumicala Sutta (AN 8:70)].
> >
> >There are references to a fivefold typology of non-returners, one of which is
called antaraparinibbayi (�attainer of Nibbana in the interval�
, in the
Samyutta Nikaya (SN 48:15, 24, 66, 51:26, 54:5, 55:25); Purisagati Sutta (AN
7:55) and Samyojana Sutta (AN 4:131). Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi, in his "The Connected
Discourses of the Buddha: a new translation of the Samyutta Nikaya", Volume II
(Note 65, Pp 1902-1903), argues (with support from Samyojana Sutta) that the
antaraparinibbayi is "�one who has abandoned the fetter of rebirth
(upapattisamyojana) without yet having abandoned the fetter of existence
(bhavasamyojana)."
> >
> >Orthodox Theravadins argue against this interpretation of the
antaraparinibbayi because in the Kathavatthu (e.g. Kv 366), an Abhidhamma text
regarded by them as canonical, the idea of antarabhava (intermediate life) was
strongly refuted.
> >
> >However, there is further evidence to consider. In Metta Sutta (Khp 9, Sn
1: there is reference to bhuta (those who have been born) and sambhavesi
(those seeking birth). Several suttas [Channovada Sutta (MN 144); Channa Sutta
(SN 4:35:87); Catuttha-nibbana-patisamyutta Sutta (Ud 74)] mention the states of
"here or beyond or between the two". Kutuhala Sutta (SN 4:44:9) also tells of "a
being [that] has laid down his body but has not yet been reborn in another
body".
> >
> >All the above references from the suttas implying an intermediate state of
existence should provide sufficient food for thought by Theravadins and ample
reason to keep an open mind regarding the mystery of dying and rebirth.
> >
> >Although fundamentalist Theravadins may subscribe to a belief of an
intermediate afterlife, it does not necessarily mean that they accept all of the
bardo (�gap in between� or intermediate state) teachings postulated by the
Vajrayana tradition.
btw, i was told by someone who visited Ajahn Brahm yesterday (he came Singapore for a talk), that Ajahn Brahm cld read his mind
[/b] -
Yes.Originally posted by shade343:Buddha teaches this? Its mention in the holy books? -
thnks 4 the infoOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:neutral_onliner, perhaps you have misunderstood the Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhist belief of the Antarabhava and Bardo. Zhong Ying Sheng is not a Chinese superstition, it is in fact, found in all forms of Buddhism including Theravada, although emphasized and elaborated more in the Mahayana sutras. It is not contradictory at all at the non-self teaching of the Buddha.
Please read: The Intermediate Stage After Death (article)
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He may have. Just that in those days people had limited knowledge of geography.Originally posted by shade343:How did you know Jesus go to India during the period he went into the "wilderness"? -
If your faith in Buddha is strong, why is there fustration? Are you moved by men? If your faith in Buddha is like solid mountain, how can the great tide move you one inch? How can you feel anything at all, your mind would be numb.Originally posted by Beyond Religion:Someone help me please. I am getting increasingly offended by followers of one of the monotheistic faiths. Right now there is a lot of anger and frustration in me. I know these are destructive sentiments, so I am seeking some help here.
First, something about me; All my life, I have experienced members of a particular monotheistic faiths trying to convert me.
In the late 1970s, there was a very vocal and aggressive campaign in Singapore not only to promulgate that monotheistic faith, but also to denigrate the traditional Chinese religions such as Taoism and Buddhism. I even get preached everywhere. On the streets, while waiting for a bus, even at home! And these preachers do not stop preaching even after I requested them to stop.
When I was studying in a missionary school of that faith, our pastor would often tell us stories of a Buddhist/ Taoist converting to that faith after realizing that the statutes they worship are nothing but pieces of wooden blocks. That pastor never fails to gleefully narrate the way these new converts smashed up the Buddhist statutes after being ‘saved’.
Even while I was in the armed forces, a fellow soldier freely distributed evangelical materials graphically depicting Buddhists/ Taoists burning in hell for not believing that faith. Even now in the work place, my head of department (HOD) is a member of that faith. On her first day of work, she conducted interviews to familiarize with each of us, and in that interview, not only announces her religion but also ask if I share her faith. I do not. Subsequently, she will seize every opportunity to talk about her faith in office, even to the extent of leading the department in prayer during company sponsored department lunches! By the way, I work in a profit-oriented, secular company. There are people of different religions working in my department.
Things like that are still happening all over Singapore. Just not to long ago, there were some public concerns over members of that faith exploiting their institutional/ vocational advantages to spread their faith. Eg, a doctor trying to convert his terminally ill patient and lecturer leading prayer sessions with his students etc. members of this faith even manage to insert its influence in sex education, culminating in the recent ST forum discussion of a supposedly secular sex education program not being secular at all.
The members of this faith areÂ…insidious, for want of a better term. Is there no escaping these evangelists? The latest incident in my office disturbed me the most. I cannot tell my HOD of my concerns. That would be a career limiting move on my part, no matter how politely I may request that. I can of course report her, but that might jeopardize her career. I donÂ’t want something bad to happen to her career tooÂ…
You know Buddhists as a whole are a stoic lot. They donÂ’t push back even while they are encroached! This is especially true of Singapore Buddhists, who tend to have a very low profile while members of that monotheistic faith are getting increasing vocal. I am having a hard time looking for fellow Singapore Buddhists to share my concerns and to offer me advice on how to manage my feelings of being indignant.
Help please! -
Buddhists do believe in an everlasting soul, if not how do you reincarnate in the six realms of samsara??Originally posted by neutral_onliner:Buddhism does not believe in the existence of an everlasting and unchanging soul. If one accepts the existence of a soul, then one is not a Buddhist with right understanding, but a deviant teaching believer.
Admittedly, in the eyes of common people, apart from the materialist-only believers, most will believe that everyone has an everlasting and unchanging soul
Religions such as Christianity, Islam, Jainism and Taoism etc, each to a certain extent subscribe to the idea that soul exists. They believe according to the good and evil that one commits, upon death oneÂ’s soul will be judged either by the heavenly god or Lord Hades. The good ones will ascend to the heavens whereas the evil ones will descent to hell.
In China, among the masses not only is this superstitious belief about the soul deeply entrenched, there is also a most serious misconception that upon death, the ghost/spirit form that one can take is the soul itself. In Chinese traditional beliefs, this relationship between soul and the ghost presents a knotty and inseparable problem.In China there are many traditional beliefs and sayings. Commonly, souls are used as bridges to explain the transitional state between human rebirths. Birth is seen as the reincarnation of soul and death represents the departure of the soul from a physical body. In general, the relationship between soul and the human body can be viewed as equivalent to that of a house and a house-owner. When the old house is broken, one moves into a new house. While the house can get old, built, moved in or moved out, the house-owner does not change. This implies the belief that the human represents a soul having put on suit of flesh body. While the flesh body can be repeatedly changed, the soul remains unchanged, i.e. belief that soul is the principle entity in our transmigration in the cycle of birth and death.
Anyway, for your infomation, what Christians, Muslims and Taoists believe are right, it is you that is wrong. Have you read their entire sacred texts? If not why do you say they are wrong?
There is no difference between flesh and soul. -
Buddhists do NOT believe in an everlasting soul. We do believe that there is Consciousness that takes rebirth, but this consciousness is not a continual entity, by empty phenomenal, impermanent, and dependantly arisen.Originally posted by 022615:Buddhists do believe in an everlasting soul, if not how do you reincarnate in the six realms of samsara??
Anyway, for your infomation, what Christians, Muslims and Taoists believe are right, it is you that is wrong. Have you read their entire sacred texts? If not why do you say they are wrong?
There is no difference between flesh and soul.
Furthermore, by realising non-self, our 7th Consciousness that takes rebirth in Samsara diffuses into the quintessence of our universe, and we are no longer bounded by rebirth. See: Returning to the Quintessence of Buddha
Life (Self) is nothing other than the continuous flow of the Now Moment.
The Now Moment ceases as it arises. This moment must completely ceased
and serves as the CAUSE for the next moment to arise.
Therefore Self is a process of series Self1, Self2, Self3, Self4, Self5, Self6...etc
A fixed entity 'Self' does not exist, what really exists is a momentary Self.
Under deep meditation, one is able to observe and sense the karmic and mental factors from moment to moment,
it is these factors that are succeeded from moment to moment and life and life but not a fixed entity.
When the karmic and mental factors subsides, it is known as "The True and Only (and Inherently egoless) Conscious Light (Itself)".
- Thusness -
Also see: What is Reborn ?Originally posted by sinweiy:What is Reborn ?
A very good, classic & somewhat complex question!
In brevity:
Causes & Conditioning is passed on & reborn ...
No being, substance, soul or self is reborn as such assumed constant entity or core substance has never existed or ever been observed in the first place...
So how can it then ever be 'reborn' !!!
Existence is a chain of discrete mental states (dhammas) all new yet conditioned
by the prior, both proximate and far.
Just like the pearl in a necklace is in contact with the next & next & next etc.
In that way do the prior mental moment condition the next;
Some Examples:
If angry now in this moment one cannot be happy in the immediate next moment,
but is conditioned to be either angry also there or indifferent!
If glad now in this moment one cannot be angry in the immediate next moment,
but is conditioned to be either glad also there or indifferent!
One is 'reborn' in every moment of life!
Frequency = ~ billions/second!
The conditioning in the terminal life moment is crucial as it determines the next state:
If having killed many beings in life how then to die in a peaceful & calm state ?
Due to the agitation of remorse & regrets in death moment => bad state rebirth.
If having given & done much good in life it is easy to die in peaceful state !
Due to the satisfied serene content in death moment => good state rebirth.
Mind or consciousness descends & settles at a new level corresponding or fitting
to its last mixture of characteristics. Very mechanic & not metaphysical at all!
Like a protein molecule sediments in a mixed solution according to its boyancy.
or
Like a comet goes into a orbit around a planet according to its own speed, mass & inclination angle.
No entity or person is found:
But a Noself state1 arising and ceasing
conditioning state2 arising and ceasing
conditioning state3 arising and ceasing
conditioning state4 arising and ceasing
conditioning state5 arising and ceasing
etc ... endlessly until Nibbana ...
bhikkhu samahita : - ]
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rebirth not reincarnate.i think u need to do some reflection on ur knowledge on buddhism.U sholud thank An Eternal Now. I think he give a very good explanation.Originally posted by 022615:Buddhists do believe in an everlasting soul, if not how do you reincarnate in the six realms of samsara??
Anyway, for your infomation, what Christians, Muslims and Taoists believe are right, it is you that is wrong. Have you read their entire sacred texts? If not why do you say they are wrong?
There is no difference between flesh and soul.
Buddha taught the doctrine of selflessness
Our mind has gross and subtle levels. The sense consciousness that see, hear, smell, taste and feel tactile sensations, and the gross mental consciousness, which is always so busy thinking this and that, function very actively while we are alive. At the time of death, they cease to function and absorb into the subtle mental consciousness. This subtle mind bears with it all the imprints of the actions we have done. It is this subtle mind which leaves one body, enters the intermediate state and finally takes rebirth in another body. After the subtle mind is joined with another body at the moment of conception, the gross sense consciousness and the gross mental consciousness reappear, and the person again sees, hears, thinks, etc. This subtle mind, which goes from one life to the next, is a constantly changing phenomena. For this reason, it is not considered to be a soul, atman, self or real personality
rebirth
Rebirth refers to a personÂ’s mind taking one body after the other. Our body and our mind are separate entities: the body is matter and is made of atoms. The mind refers to all of our emotional and cognitive experiences, and is formless. When the body and mind are linked, we are alive, but at death, they separate. The body becomes a corpse, and the mind continues on to take another body
U need to do more study on the 'Emptiness'. -
btw my frend... do u noe wat buddhism is really abt. hw buddhism came abt. Why buddhism is so unique among all?Originally posted by 022615:Buddhists do believe in an everlasting soul, if not how do you reincarnate in the six realms of samsara??
Anyway, for your infomation, what Christians, Muslims and Taoists believe are right, it is you that is wrong. Have you read their entire sacred texts? If not why do you say they are wrong?
There is no difference between flesh and soul.
Well my fren we would like to share wf u and try to clear all ur doubts & misconception as possible as we can.
may u be happy -
what is compassion and empathy? what is kindness through action, mind and speech?Originally posted by 022615:If your faith in Buddha is strong, why is there fustration? Are you moved by men? If your faith in Buddha is like solid mountain, how can the great tide move you one inch? How can you feel anything at all, your mind would be numb.
i could empathise with your fustration and agitation. may you be well and lifted up from your hatred soon. -
Think how beautiful the world would be if we could just see it without our opinions, expectations, fears and so forth. That is why Buddhism, for me. It is religion without a god without a need to belive anything and there are no wars in the name of Buddhism.
