What will happen to people who don't believe in Buddhism?
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Buddhists has a clear understanding of reality, does not get stuck on gambling because they realise the reality of gambling. Gambling is just another form of super-samsara.Originally posted by casino_king:Let me go back to why I am doing this again.
Gamblers and Religious followers behave in the same way. Gambling and Religion are 2 sides of the same coin. Both have adherants because the believers/gamblers believe without demanding clear and irrefutable evidence. You see the danger when you do that? To believe without clear and irrefutable evidence?
It is better to acknowledge that one does not know then to cling on to intepretations that are baseless.
Otherwise, as for evidence and proof, please see previous article and my previous statement. It is certainly different from any other dogmatic beliefs. -
Buddhists does not just stop at believing, but discovering the truths themselves.Originally posted by casino_king:I am of course talking to educated thinking people and not superstitious, intellectually lazy people. If they need to believe in "something" it is better to believe that gambling is bad because Buddhism say so rather then actually finding out for themselves what about gambling is so bad.
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You see? When you make claims like that: "they can not only levitate." What do you expect people to think?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Monks, nuns, and ordinary meditators can reach such deep meditations that they can not only levitate, but they can remember previous lives!
Straightaway they see Buddhists as a bunch of ....
What you might want to say is that they imagine that they are levitating.
Anything you say after "they can not only levitate..." becomes more delusions.
You actually say "they can remember previous lives!" after you say: "they can not only levitate."
Then you go around and claim that Buddhism is in complete harmony with science.
Hello science tells you that there is a physical law of gravity and everything in the universe operate within this law and human beings are no exception.
Since you claim to be one with science how can you live with such internal incoherence????? -
There are many other Yogis (non-buddhist) that can also levitate. Maybe you havent heard before, but I have seen photos of levitating yogis in books before. Some book that lists all the 'paranormal things'. Quite interesting. But why monks cannot show levitation? Because buddhism isnt about levitation, but if you meditate you can achieve that. We usually emphasize and encourage the UNimportance of miracles and siddhis in Buddhism because many people are fascinated over it and lose focus and direction in their cultivation. Siddhis are really only the side effect of samadhi, concentration and not peculiar to Buddhism.Originally posted by casino_king:You see? When you make claims like that: "they can not only levitate." What do you expect people to think?
Straightaway they see Buddhists as a bunch of ....
What you might want to say is that they imagine that they are levitating.
Anything you say after "they can not only levitate..." becomes more delusions.
You actually say "they can remember previous lives!" after you say: "they can not only levitate."
Then you go around and claim that Buddhism is in complete harmony with science.
Hello science tells you that there is a physical law of gravity and everything in the universe operate within this law and human beings are no exception.
Since you claim to be one with science how can you live with such internal incoherence?????
Let me tell you a true story.
http://www.angelfire.com/realm/bodhisattva/siddhi.html
One day the Buddha met an ascetic who sat by the bank of a river. This ascetic had practised austerities for 25 years. The Buddha asked him what he had received for all his labor. The ascetic proudly replied that, now at last, he could cross the river by walking on the water. The Buddha pointed out that this gain was insignificant for all the years of labor, since he could cross the river using a ferry for one penny!
Also see http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Library/Other/Miracles/miracles.html by the same author of the previous articles Buddhism and Science. BTW even Ajahn Brahmavamso also had some psychic powers, because a friend of mine actually visited Ajahn Brahmavamso, and he could penetrate his consciousness and know him directly - even his cultivation and meditation experiences. Alot of Buddhist monks, masters, have these powers. Some of whom happen to be my dharma teachers
This is no big deal in Buddhism.
Anyway, attaining such psychic abilities is really also easier than attaining enlightenment. People who have psychic abilities does not necessarily mean they are enlightened.[03:35] not surprise but no big deal
Again, miracles and siddhis are just a small part of the NATURAL that has just yet been discovered or explained by modern science. But it can be realised in meditation.
[03:35] in fact i suspect most monks have
[03:35] u mean powers or realisations
[03:35] but if u say those power
[03:35] i actually have a fren who can read mind
[03:36] he is not a buddhist but practice many years of meditation
[03:36] so i am not actually surprise
[03:38] but i am disappointed if he shows such power
[03:38] a monk ever say
[03:38] showing such things for pple to know
[03:38] is no diff from a gal showing underwear for a few coins
[03:38] haha
[03:39] those are refering to ppl who show powers to get money la
[03:40] bhikkhu shouldnt show powers to make a living
[03:40] laity should show also la or make a living out of it
[03:40] *shouldnt
[03:40] even laity also
[03:40] oic
[03:41] its mention to refrain from showing
[03:41] icic..
[03:41] seriously no big deal abt such power after i know taht muslim fren
[03:41] who has mind reading power from meditation
[03:41] muslim fren?
[03:41] meditation?
[03:42] he is a doc in psychology
[03:42] they have a topic in it
[03:43] like..?
[03:44] meditation
[03:44] oh... icic
[03:44] but they refer it calling reaching alpha stage of mind
[03:44] which is similar to sleeping
[03:44] icic..
[03:44] he say among his fren in that course
[03:44] after knowing the method
[03:44] abt 1/4 of it have similar power
[03:45] oh haha
[03:45] after certain years
[03:45] oic..
[03:45] thats alot
[03:45] so seriously after seeing him make me realise its just that we din put enough time and effort
[03:45] that why we are so amazed by it -
If people can levitate then all the science textbooks need to be re written. So it is not a small matter as you imply. You cannot simply say: People can levitate, believe it or not... it is not important.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Again, miracles and siddhis are just a small part of the NATURAL that has just yet been discovered or explained by modern science. But it can be realised in meditation.
You must provide evidence to go with all your statements or you will be like the pathological gamblers who believe that he will sooner or later discover the secret of beating the casino and become the God of gamblers. -
If people can levitate, modern scientists would name it an 'Anomoly', because they cannot explain it. There is so much anomolies in the world but textbooks are not rewritten. Modern science has sought so much about the 'outside' but forsaken the 'within'. Thats why it will never be able to explain such phenomena any time soon. I dont know about other yogis, but I am sure Buddhist monks wont bother proving these abilities to anyone. But if you are close to them you will realise it eventually. If you are fortunate enough to meet someone who has such abilities, maybe one day you'll be convinced yourself. I am fully convinced but no matter what I say, I'm afraid you wont believe it until you see for yourself.Originally posted by casino_king:If people can levitate then all the science textbooks need to be re written. So it is not a small matter as you imply. You cannot simply say: People can levitate, believe it or not... it is not important.
You must provide evidence to go with all your statements or you will be like the pathological gamblers who believe that he will sooner or later discover the secret of beating the casino and become the God of gamblers.
The point is - whether or not you believe in these things, its really unimportant. So what if you have these powers? So what if you dont? Does having such powers make you any more wiser or enlightened?
Kalama Sutra
"Rely not on the teacher/person, but on the teaching. Rely not on the words of the teaching, but on the
spirit of the words. Rely not on theory, but on experience.Do not believe in anything simply because you
have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do
not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is
written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and
elders. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is
conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."
- the Buddha -
When it comes to things we don't like to believe, they call just one experience, one clear factual undeniable experience, an anomaly. Anomaly is a word in science for disconcerting evidence that we can put in the back of a filing cabinet and not look at again, because it's threatens our worldview. It undermines what we want to believe. It is threatening to our dogma. However, an essential part of the scientific method is that theories have to be abandoned in favour of the evidence, in respect of the facts. - Ajahn Brahmavamso, 'Buddhism and Science'
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casino king,
self knowledge is in our own higher self interest. wisdom works for us.
a brain do not just exist just for the matter of thinking, being alive for the sake of communicating with other parts / functions of the body in order to "live".
you have seemed to have stopped only at the superficial ability and functions of your mind without going deeper into layers and layers of your mind. do not underestimate the powers of your mind how you yourself could manipulate yourself in delusions and illusions even without knowing you have been manipulated.
with what all you have said you are merely reflecting all your words to your own self with doubts and stubbornness and full of pride and ego that you yourself not willing to "open up" to clear the rubbish in your head to perceive and try to understand. and you are heavily deluded so you will not be able to catch anything. all i could read from you, well i'm sure others do as well if being aware, is that you keep repeating repeating over what you said when others have replied and given you clues and answers and guidelines, you just keep being stubborn and too self centered.
its your mind's blockage heavy blockage that you can't "see". well may you be well and be cleared from your obstacles some day.
there's no win win or lose lose situations here. -
casino king,
the development of wisdom is greatly facilitated by seeing your little hypocrisies and large illusions and learning to be more forthright and honest with yourself and others, by turning inwards not outwards for answers to your doubts and not being stubborn and overly self-centered. -
casino king,
in life you often get played out in various ways big or small issues.
you may find it difficult to shake off your thoughts worries doubts as well as unable to get off your fixed conditioned entrenched opinions. even your insignificant emotional memories perceptions don't roll off, instead they get stuck accumulated stuck blocked in your mind and sometimes they fester and rot. thats the rubbish you have to clear in your head.
the un-trained mind such as yours tries to grasp and hold on to your doubts delusions emotions and things which by their very nature are fleeting. you are like trying to grasp water between your hands. and you can't grasp and you become fretted stubborn not willing to understand its nature.
only you yourself can help yourself. gambling teachings or whatsoever others you have learned CANNOT save you help you.
(to be fair, yes of cos my studies on sun-zi bing fa the art of war CANNOT save me help me in life. it is using wisdom through mind training and daily practices that could excel me step by step ahead of people confidently contentedly)
there's nobody winning nor losing in any situations here.
you control your own mind not others. and also you don't let your mind control you either. wake up! be mindful and aware and don't live in your own ego-hut nailed to doubts and stubbornness! -
People can levitate and it is an anomaly? Incredible.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:If people can levitate, modern scientists would name it an 'Anomoly', because they cannot explain it. There is so much anomolies in the world but textbooks are not rewritten. Modern science has sought so much about the 'outside' but forsaken the 'within'. Thats why it will never be able to explain such phenomena any time soon. I dont know about other yogis, but I am sure Buddhist monks wont bother proving these abilities to anyone. But if you are close to them you will realise it eventually. If you are fortunate enough to meet someone who has such abilities, maybe one day you'll be convinced yourself. I am fully convinced but no matter what I say, I'm afraid you wont believe it until you see for yourself.
The point is - whether or not you believe in these things, its really unimportant. So what if you have these powers? So what if you dont? Does having such powers make you any more wiser or enlightened?
Kalama Sutra
"Rely not on the teacher/person, but on the teaching. Rely not on the words of the teaching, but on the
spirit of the words. Rely not on theory, but on experience.Do not believe in anything simply because you
have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do
not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is
written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and
elders. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is
conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."
- the Buddha
Do you read and understand the words you quote or not?
Be brave and see the Buddhists illusions. Don't tell me that there are no illusions in Buddhism and Buddhist teachings. Open you eyes my friend. I am not your enemy, I am your friend. -
Buddhists do not see it as an anomaly, but scientists would.Originally posted by casino_king:People can levitate and it is an anomaly? Incredible.
There is an interesting website in my bookmarks, it gives many sound account of various human abilities that are widely known as paranormal. There is also a levitating chapter. Many other chapters are equally interesting.
Many are those who practise meditation for many years. But of course, they are not Buddhist, mostly the indian yogis, because it is against Buddhist laws to demonstrate it.
http://www.amazingabilities.com/amaze8a.html
And although I have not personally seen levitating feats, I have seen and heard many examples. Of course it is up to you to believe or not.
I will stop discussing regarding levitation and other 'paranormal feats' because this discussion is not worthy to discuss A buddhist forum shouldn't promote too much interest in the 'paranormal' and 'psychic abilities' stuff. I have already presented you enough info in many previous posts for you to decide yourself. Whether you believe it is fine and there is only so much the internet can show.. you have to meet one of those people yourself. I do not need to convince anyone of anything at all. -
Don't tell me that there are no illusions in Buddhism and Buddhist teachings.
If it is merely a theory and is untested, then it could be an illusion.
However none of what Buddha taught was from theory but from his own experience and realisations.
However it is true that many of our understandings of Buddhist teachings are illusional because we have formed many perceptions and concepts based on what we learnt, and these perceptions are still ignorance.
Therefore most important is to realise these truths ourselves.
The Perfect One is free from any theory, for the Perfect One has understood what the body is, and how it arises, and passes away. He has understood what feeling is, and how it arises, and passes away. He has understood what perception is, and how it arises, and passes away. He has understood what the mental formations are, and how they arise, and pass away. He has understood what consciousness is, and how it arises, and passes away.
Therefore, I say, the Perfect One has won complete deliverance through the extinction, fading away, disappearance, rejection, and getting rid of all opinions and conjectures, of all inclination to the vainglory of I and mine.
- Majjhima Nikaya, 72
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Do not simply believe it, but realise the truths and see for yourself.
http://www.nalandabodhi.org/buddha_life.html
The Buddha shared his experience of the path, the spiritual journey. He shared his experiences of realization, of spiritual insight into the nature of mind. In one of his earliest discourses, the Buddha addressed his audience of monks and lay people and said, "You should examine my teachings thoroughly. Like a gold merchant looking to acquire pure gold, you should thoroughly go through the process of analyzing these teachings." Buddha said that a substance could be examined to see if it were pure gold by first striking it, then cutting it, then rubbing it with different cloths. Through this testing, it is possible find out if a substance is pure gold or fake gold. In a similar way, Buddha said, "It is extremely important for you to analyze and examine my teachings, and then, in the end, you can decide whether to adopt them. If there is any wisdom, you can adopt it. If there is nothing, just leave it. You do not have to accept these teachings." Buddha said, "Do not accept my teachings because they are taught by a King, or a Prince. Do not accept them because they are taught by someone called "Buddha." However, accept them if they are logical, if they are reasonable, if there is wisdom in them, and if there is some benefit." -
nobody can show u nirvana.It a state not a place.only u ... i say again ... only u can experience ur own nirvana when ur mind hav attained such a stateOriginally posted by casino_king:Did the Dalai Lama come across to the viewers as some superhuman being? Of course not. Otherwise, there would be no need for this debate. Everybody would want to know how to become a super human (Buddha) like him.
Did he show evidence of nirvana or karma or reincarnation? Of course not, otherwise even China would seek his advice instead of keeping him out of Tibet.
Christians show us Jesus Christ, Muslim show us Allah and Buddhist show us evidence and we will all shut up and join the first one that can give us conclusive evidence.
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I am so sorry. You do not see that such claims make Buddhism a superstition. Paranormal activities studies had been sponsored by CIA and in US universities and they decided to stop the support because on hindsight it was so stupid to do it in the first place.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Buddhists do [b]not see it as an anomaly, but scientists would.
There is an interesting website in my bookmarks, it gives many sound account of various human abilities that are widely known as paranormal. There is also a levitating chapter. Many other chapters are equally interesting.
Many are those who practise meditation for many years. But of course, they are not Buddhist, mostly the indian yogis, because it is against Buddhist laws to demonstrate it.
http://www.amazingabilities.com/amaze8a.html
And although I have not personally seen levitating feats, I have seen and heard many examples. Of course it is up to you to believe or not.
I will stop discussing regarding levitation and other 'paranormal feats' because this discussion is not worthy to discuss A buddhist forum shouldn't promote too much interest in the 'paranormal' and 'psychic abilities' stuff. I have already presented you enough info in many previous posts for you to decide yourself. Whether you believe it is fine and there is only so much the internet can show.. you have to meet one of those people yourself. I do not need to convince anyone of anything at all.
You obviously believe that people can levitate and those people were not simply having a mental hallucination after intense meditation.
One then goes on to assume that if Buddhists can make such claims, one cannot trust Buddhist teachings.
While one might pick up nuggets of wisdom from Buddhism, one can also pick up the same from Christianity.
Using those teachings of Buddhism and Christianity does not make one a Buddhist or Christian though.
To call oneself a Buddhist or Christian is to buy into all the fantastic stuff.
What will you say if I tell you that you can simply forget about Jesus dying for the world and Christian claims of God but become a Christian anyway and learn and experience the truths in Christianity anyway.
This is what you are asking me to do. -
Originally posted by neutral_onliner:
Exactly my point. That Buddhists claims are simply a "changing of the mind;" "a mental conditioning; " and "a Buddhist perception of the world."
[b]nobody can show u nirvana.It a state not a place.only u ... i say again ... only u can experience ur own nirvana when ur mind hav attained such a state [/b]
Look at the answers I got previously and you will see that this understanding of Buddhism is refuted time and again in this thread. -
casino king,
again, no body is forcing you into Buddhism. choices are there open available for you. its your mind that makes the decision. NOBODY will force you and cannot force you to accept the teachings of Buddhism. you make the choice of where you want your brain to be in the correct places to flow.
besides my other post replies for you, you show much confusions and tend to assume things yes i use the word assumption - that is you base on your personal stubborn self-centered theory and reasoning; and you seem to have a tendency to twist and change your words and this ain't gonna be good cos it reflects inreliabilty of yourself to people around you. you forgot the significance of self integrity to not only yourself but to others too.
to stand my statement for you, below are the "evidence" of words in speech of your molding of your mind state of thoughts.Originally posted by casino_king:Exactly my point. That Buddhists claims are simply a "changing of the mind;" "a mental conditioning; " and "a Buddhist perception of the world."
Look at the answers I got previously and you will see that this understanding of Buddhism is refuted time and again in this thread.Originally posted by casino_king:What will you say if I tell you that you can simply forget about Jesus dying for the world and Christian claims of God but become a Christian anyway and learn and experience the truths in Christianity anyway.
This is what you are asking me to do. -
You are just stating the obvious. That nobody is forcing me. This is a forum, we are having a discussion. If you are not interested to have a discussion, then why are you in a forum?Originally posted by paperflower:casino king,
again, no body is forcing you into Buddhism. choices are there open available for you. its your mind that makes the decision. NOBODY will force you and cannot force you to accept the teachings of Buddhism. you make the choice of where you want your brain to be in the correct places to flow.
besides my other post replies for you, you show much confusions and tend to assume things yes i use the word assumption - that is you base on your personal stubborn self-centered theory and reasoning; and you seem to have a tendency to twist and change your words and this ain't gonna be good cos it reflects inreliabilty of yourself to people around you. you forgot the significance of self integrity to not only yourself but to others too.
to stand my statement for you, below are the "evidence" of words in speech of your molding of your mind state of thoughts.
The thread is very clear, what happens to people who does not belive in Buddhism? To answer that question, we have to look at Buddhism in detail and define exactly what Buddhism is all about. What Buddhism hopes to achieve and what Buddhists claim.
You are not helping because you do not provide any useful information to extend the discussion. -
casino king,
what others try to explain show you the way to perceive from their all other posts replies are guidelines, advices, analogy and it is simply because the profound teachings of Buddha's cannot simply be grasped with bare hands that includes a superficial mind. others including myself points out your little flaws is helping you to see your own little flaws which you can't perceive due to your deluded cloudy blocked choked stubborn egoistic mind self.
we are doing this all out of good will to you and not only to you, equally to others anyone too. we could simply make the choice of ignoring you not entertaining you but out of compassion and kindness we gladly point the articles, quotes, analogies, statements, teachings to you.
again, its your mind - you - decide make the choice to listen yes listen as in meaning go into your head where it should be properly situated. again no one will force you nor will anyone brainwash you. -
in the first place if you are not cleared minded, nothing can go into your head.Originally posted by casino_king:You are just stating the obvious. That nobody is forcing me. This is a forum, we are having a discussion. If you are not interested to have a discussion, then why are you in a forum?
The thread is very clear, what happens to people who does not belive in Buddhism? To answer that question, we have to look at Buddhism in detail and define exactly what Buddhism is all about. What Buddhism hopes to achieve and what Buddhists claim.
You are not helping because you do not provide any useful information to extend the discussion.
i understand, it is hard to accept the truth of yourself.
every single bit provides helpful guidelines along the way. don't be too egositc and don't try to leap the big step all at once.
a step at a time.
if you know about the teachings of Buddha's words, you'll know the meaning of emptiness. -
What has been given to me so far are all subjective. Is there Buddhist out there who has any direct experience that we can discuss?Originally posted by paperflower:casino king,
what others try to explain show you the way to perceive from their all other posts replies are guidelines, advices, analogy and it is simply because the profound teachings of Buddha's cannot simply be grasped with bare hands that includes a superficial mind. others including myself points out your little flaws is helping you to see your own little flaws which you can't perceive due to your deluded cloudy blocked choked stubborn egoistic mind self.
we are doing this all out of good will to you and not only to you, equally to others anyone too. we could simply make the choice of ignoring you not entertaining you but out of compassion and kindness we gladly point the articles, quotes, analogies, statements, teachings to you.
again, its your mind - you - decide make the choice to listen yes listen as in meaning go into your head where it should be properly situated. again no one will force you nor will anyone brainwash you. -
that's when you learn and understand the profound meaning of emptiness in BuddhismOriginally posted by casino_king:What has been given to me so far are all subjective. Is there Buddhist out there who has any direct experience that we can discuss? -
Originally posted by paperflower:
Totally makes no sense at all. Profound emptiness. Emptiness is emptiness. If you cannot explain it, then it is meaningless.
[b]that's when you learn and understand the profound meaning of emptiness in Buddhism
[/b]
Like if I say, you just don't understand the profound fullness of Christian living. Makes any sense to you? -
i do not see the need to argue with emptinessOriginally posted by casino_king:Totally makes no sense at all. Profound emptiness. Emptiness is emptiness. If you cannot explain it, then it is meaningless.
Like if I say, you just don't understand the profound fullness of Christian living. Makes any sense to you?
emptiness is fullness
i had been a christian before.
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Emptiness is fullness and you think you sound so profund? Rich is poor, how about that?Originally posted by paperflower:i do not see the need to argue with emptiness
emptiness is fullness
i had been a christian before.