What will happen to people who don't believe in Buddhism?
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Really? We previously have a thread for Buddhist converts, but I don't believe I ever read your spiritual journey. Can you share it with me? (or just point me to a link if you have posted about this before)Originally posted by paperflower:i do not see the need to argue with emptiness
emptiness is fullness
i had been a christian before.
BTW, Christians will vehemently argue that you have never been a 'real' or 'true' Christian, since you have left the Christian faith and embrace Buddhism. (I know how Christians work, I have been debating them for about a year before I stopped) -
is there a need (for me) to do that? just follow the heart. think simple, do simple, stay simple. there's no need for me to diary my life stories in details...Originally posted by Beyond Religion:Really? We previously have a thread for Buddhist converts, but I don't believe I ever read your spiritual journey. Can you share it with me? (or just point me to a link if you have posted about this before)
BTW, Christians will vehemently argue that you have never been a 'real' or 'true' Christian, since you have left the Christian faith and embrace Buddhism. (I know how Christians work, I have been debating them for about a year before I stopped)
what how others look at my life ain't important, its more important for me to look at my own.
likewise, true real Buddhist will not embrace other religions once they have gone deeper into the Buddhist teachings.
how you perceive me learning studying earnestly in Buddhism now was how i earnestly learned studied in Christianity.
in life we have to think carefully clearly and decide to make important choice.
I have friends from various races, backgrounds & religions. as friends sometimes they confide in me their problems & joys. I empathise & share advices with them. but I don't tell them i'm using Buddhist view or wisdom to deal with life. simply cos life itself is the natural state of BEING without fixed dogmatic conditioned inflexible rules or regulations. -
She's new here.Originally posted by Beyond Religion:Really? We previously have a thread for Buddhist converts, but I don't believe I ever read your spiritual journey. Can you share it with me? (or just point me to a link if you have posted about this before)
BTW, Christians will vehemently argue that you have never been a 'real' or 'true' Christian, since you have left the Christian faith and embrace Buddhism. (I know how Christians work, I have been debating them for about a year before I stopped) -
Do you pray to Buddhist Gods, live your life like it will affect how you will be reborn - karma - and believe that if you meditate hard enough you will levitate?Originally posted by paperflower:is there a need (for me) to do that? just follow the heart. think simple, do simple, stay simple. there's no need for me to diary my life stories in details...
what how others look at my life ain't important, its more important for me to look at my own.
likewise, true real Buddhist will not embrace other religions once they have gone deeper into the Buddhist teachings.
how you perceive me learning studying earnestly in Buddhism now was how i earnestly learned studied in Christianity.
in life we have to think carefully clearly and decide to make important choice.
I have friends from various races, backgrounds & religions. as friends sometimes they confide in me their problems & joys. I empathise & share advices with them. but I don't tell them i'm using Buddhist view or wisdom to deal with life. simply cos life itself is the natural state of BEING without fixed dogmatic conditioned inflexible rules or regulations.
When you encounter life's problems, do you refer to 2549 year old teachings or do you use common sense based on your education?
Do you expect people to pray to you and offer food regularly after you die? -
Originally posted by casino_king:
Or perhaps they have gone underground.
I am so sorry. You do not see that such claims make Buddhism a superstition. Paranormal activities studies had been sponsored by CIA and in US universities and they decided to stop the support because on hindsight it was so stupid to do it in the first place.You obviously believe that people can levitate and those people were not simply having a mental hallucination after intense meditation.
Samadhi and concentration does not lead to hallucinations. Lack of samadhi and concentration, a mind without control and keeps thinking and thinking, might lead to hallucination.One then goes on to assume that if Buddhists can make such claims, one cannot trust Buddhist teachings.
Again, it is your DOGMA to not be able to accept it. Remember: be open minded, and not give in to rejecting just because you do not want to believe.
When it comes to things we don't like to believe, they call just one experience, one clear factual undeniable experience, an anomaly. Anomaly is a word in science for disconcerting evidence that we can put in the back of a filing cabinet and not look at again, because it's threatens our worldview. It undermines what we want to believe. It is threatening to our dogma. However, an essential part of the scientific method is that theories have to be abandoned in favour of the evidence, in respect of the facts. - Ajahn Brahmavamso, 'Buddhism and Science'While one might pick up nuggets of wisdom from Buddhism, one can also pick up the same from Christianity.
One can use the wisdom of Christianity, but for me, I will focus on Buddhist teachings because it is completely practical in life. I'm not saying Christianity is not pratical, but it emphasize more on faith. Buddhism is all about cultivation which leads to bliss, wisdom, liberation.
Using those teachings of Buddhism and Christianity does not make one a Buddhist or Christian though.
To call oneself a Buddhist or Christian is to buy into all the fantastic stuff.What will you say if I tell you that you can simply forget about Jesus dying for the world and Christian claims of God but become a Christian anyway and learn and experience the truths in Christianity anyway.
The Buddhist methods DOES lead to what it claims it will lead to, liberation, enlightenment, is definitely true because as I said.... so many people have already achieved that.
This is what you are asking me to do.
And if you have doubts at the very least keep an open mind until you see it for yourself. -
1) Buddhist dont pray to Gods.Originally posted by casino_king:Do you pray to Buddhist Gods, live your life like it will affect how you will be reborn - karma - and believe that if you meditate hard enough you will levitate?
2) Buddhist dont worship anyone even to Buddha, prostrations is done out of respect.
3) Gods are regarded as inferior than enlightened people. -
Buddhism is more about Realising the Unchanging ESSENCE of the Mind, realising the UNCONDITIONED, etc.Originally posted by casino_king:Exactly my point. That Buddhists claims are simply a "changing of the mind;" "a mental conditioning; " and "a Buddhist perception of the world."
Look at the answers I got previously and you will see that this understanding of Buddhism is refuted time and again in this thread.
And to attain Complete Buddhahood (i.e beyond Arhant/Pratyekabuddha), a Bodhisattva also perfects the Ten Paramitas:
The Six Paramitas or means of so doings are
(1) dana - charity/giving
(2) sila - moral/conduct/taking precepts
(3) ksanti - patience
(4) virya - vigor/devotion/energy
(5) dhyana - contemplation/meditation
(6) prajna - wisdom.
The Ten Paramitas are the above plus
(7) upaya - use of expedient or proper means
(
pranidhana - vow of bodhi and helpfulness
(9) bala - strength
(10) intelligence
and also the Four Immeasurables:
http://www.bodhicitta.net/The%20Practice%20of%20the%20Four%20Immeasurables-opening.htm
Immeasurable Love
Immeasurable Compassion
Immeasurable Joy
Immeasurable Equanimity -
All Buddhists will eventually realise the Empty nature of reality. Emptiness is not just a VOID, because if it is, then it will be in oppositions to EXISTENCE. Emptiness is beyond this duality. In very short explanation, Emptiness is emptiness of inherent existence, and everything is interconnected/conditioned. Due to our perceptions, concepts, obsession with our thoughts and our self, it is difficult to directly comprehend it.Originally posted by casino_king:Totally makes no sense at all. Profound emptiness. Emptiness is emptiness. If you cannot explain it, then it is meaningless.
Like if I say, you just don't understand the profound fullness of Christian living. Makes any sense to you?
Also see: The Universe as a Hologram - Holographic Reality -
You are confusing me. Yesterday somebody, I wont say who, asked me if 2 packets of Thai biscuits are the same.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:1) Buddhist dont pray to Gods.
2) Buddhist dont worship anyone even to Buddha, prostrations is done out of respect.
3) Gods are regarded as inferior than enlightened people.
I said yes. She said that she will bring the smaller packet instead of the bigger one to pray to somebody who has died a couple of years ago.
The person who died was "baptised" into Buddhism and had a Priest who was her teacher. This priest had already passed away and was the abbot of the temple in Geylang 19 or 21 or 23... I don't know if the persom going to offer the prayers and food for the dead person was "baptised."
I said: "What does it matter which one you bring since? Since you are bringing it back to eat." Immediately I regretted it because it could be rude. I mean, here I might be very rude but in real life I try to respect people's beliefs.
So what you just wrote is totally weird.. -
Who is this person? Can you ask her what monastery she goes to?Originally posted by casino_king:You are confusing me. Yesterday somebody, I wont say who, asked me if 2 packets of Thai biscuits are the same.
I said yes. She said that she will bring the smaller packet instead of the bigger one to pray to somebody who has died a couple of years ago.
The person who died was "baptised" into Buddhism and had a Priest who was her teacher. This priest had already passed away and was the abbot of the temple in Geylang 19 or 21 or 23... I don't know if the persom going to offer the prayers and food for the dead person was "baptised."
I said: "What does it matter which one you bring since? Since you are bringing it back to eat." Immediately I regretted it because it could be rude. I mean, here I might be very rude but in real life I try to respect people's beliefs.
So what you just wrote is totally weird..
We seldom have priests in Buddhism, usually are monks and nuns. And we dont use the term 'baptised'. -
Anyway it's true that we can pray for someone else. Usually by chanting sutras, offering to the Sangha (community), and dedicating these merits to the deceased, or chanting Buddha names, in hope the deceased will receive the merits.
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Do you see how you are simply playing with words? When you say "Realising the Unchanging ESSENCE of the Mind" you are simply saying perceiving or understanding something. That is a mental activity. Nothing outside the mind has changed. Only your own perceptions.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Buddhism is more about Realising the Unchanging ESSENCE of the Mind, realising the UNCONDITIONED, etc.
"And to attain Complete Buddhahood "; the same thing... nothing physical and reality has not changed a bit. You are still who you are but maybe your outlook has changed.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:And to attain Complete Buddhahood (i.e beyond Arhant/Pratyekabuddha), a Bodhisattva also perfects the Ten Paramitas:
The Six Paramitas or means of so doings are
(1) dana - charity/giving
(2) sila - moral/conduct/taking precepts
(3) ksanti - patience
(4) virya - vigor/devotion/energy
(5) dhyana - contemplation/meditation
(6) prajna - wisdom.
The Ten Paramitas are the above plus
(7) upaya - use of expedient or proper means
( pranidhana - vow of bodhi and helpfulness
(9) bala - strength
(10) intelligence
and also the Four Immeasurables:
http://www.bodhicitta.net/The%20Practice%20of%20the%20Four%20Immeasurables-opening.htm
Immeasurable Love
Immeasurable Compassion
Immeasurable Joy
Immeasurable Equanimity
I knew one American in Bangkok who was in a Buddhist temple as a monk for 4 years. When I met him, he had left the temple and was about to go and teach in the top university in Thailand.
I remarked to him casually while we were having lunch with some other expats... "The so called manifestations and claims of Buddhists are but events in the person's mind."
He looked at me with a smile and said: "Exactly." -
Sorry, I mean monk. The teacher of the one who is dead is the monk who died at age 91 and it was all over the papers because he founded the Mee Toh school if I am not wrong. Like I said he was abbot of the temple at Geylang street 19 or thereabouts. The one who is dead was his disciple.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Who is this person? Can you ask her what monastery she goes to?
We seldom have priests in Buddhism, usually are monks and nuns. And we dont use the term 'baptised'.
I said baptised because as an English educated person, they choose to use that word to help me understand what is going on. I do not and did not understand it as "Baptism" in the Christian sense but I took it to mean dedicating one's live to Buddhism.
The one who is doing the praying goes to the temple next to the old mee toh school near Rangoon Road. She prays at Bright Hill as well. And also regularly at 4th Horse Road... the Kuan Im Temple. Waterloo Street. -
Also see: The Universe as a Hologram - Holographic RealityDo you see how you are simply playing with words? When you say "Realising the Unchanging ESSENCE of the Mind" you are simply saying perceiving or understanding something. That is a mental activity. Nothing outside the mind has changed. Only your own perceptions. [/quote]
As I have said, REALITY only appears to you when you have gone beyond perceptions. It is BEYOND mental activity.
As I have mentioned in previous post. (cut and paste)
From our forum friend Longchen,In one 'awakening' meditation, I came to a state of no thoughts. Such experiences are very hard to describe. This is because the explanation process itself, is within the medium of thoughts and concepts. It is impossible to describe a state of no thoughts using thoughts! Anyway, in the void of no thoughts, one naturally assume that everything must be an unconscious blank. However, that was not the case! What came next was quite a revelation to me. In the void of no thought, I realise myself to be an omni Presence... Here's how I will describe him.
------
"The Presence is all pervasive, yet un-intrusive. IT seems to be in all things and observes with utter passiveness. IT exists beyond concepts, beliefs and do not need any form. Therefore, I understand IT as eternal. IT also seems to be the subtler state of myself. I also got the feeling that IT existed in all my lifetimes or even more. If I were to name IT, I will describe IT as The Eternal Presence."
I believed the Eternal Presence is the God/Source Presence within oneself. This Presence is also called the Absolute, Dharmakaya. The paradox of it, is that is this not an object and is absolutely material-less.
About the Presence, it is ever present for it is us beyond the mind. You didn't see it doesn't means it is not there.
The God Presence is within us and more and IS us; always, even at this moment. This is the part that is simply pure awareness.I also too feels that our perception of the universe is a hologram... and that the hologram itself is thoughts.
As individual selfs, we only perceive our own thoughts... or rather we are these thoughts.
My opinion is that all of us are individual containments within a vast/infinite 'body' of All that is. We are all one... and are different expressions (reciever) of the ONE.
When thinking, we perceive ourselves as separate beings. When the thinking mind is stilled (no thoughts/Now), we realised what emanated the thoughts... It appears to me as a 'bright' energetic vastness. This infinite vastness is us... we all meet here.
Suffering appears to me to be the thoughts... that creates a 'personalised sense of self'. It is the personalised sense of self that gave 'meaning' to the invisible vastness. In the vastness, there appears to me ... 'no meaning'.
I must say... I have not entered into these experiences long enough to give more concrete answers....
so these are just my understanding at current stage.
[quote]Originally posted by casino_king:
"And to attain Complete Buddhahood "; the same thing... nothing physical and reality has not changed a bit. You are still who you are but maybe your outlook has changed.
I knew one American in Bangkok who was in a Buddhist temple as a monk for 4 years. When I met him, he had left the temple and was about to go and teach in the top university in Thailand.
I remarked to him casually while we were having lunch with some other expats... "The so called manifestations and claims of Buddhists are but events in the person's mind."
He looked at me with a smile and said: "Exactly."He's not exactly wrong, but on what ground are you speaking.
On a higher level of reality, all phenomena are manifestation of Mind/Consciousness. Or second explanation, the world you live in are created by your intentions/thoughts. -
I see. btw, kuan im temple is not really a Buddhist temple, but a Chinese Folks practise temple.Originally posted by casino_king:Sorry, I mean monk. The teacher of the one who is dead is the monk who died at age 91 and it was all over the papers because he founded the Mee Toh school if I am not wrong. Like I said he was abbot of the temple at Geylang street 19 or thereabouts. The one who is dead was his disciple.
I said baptised because as an English educated person, they choose to use that word to help me understand what is going on. I do not and did not understand it as "Baptism" in the Christian sense but I took it to mean dedicating one's live to Buddhism.
The one who is doing the praying goes to the temple next to the old mee toh school near Rangoon Road. She prays at Bright Hill as well. And also regularly at 4th Horse Road... the Kuan Im Temple. Waterloo Street. -
That is just your opinion. They told me themselves that they are Buddhists. There is also a thread to tell Buddhists to celebrate Kuam Im birthday tommorrow in this forum.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I see. btw, kuan im temple is not really a Buddhist temple, but a Chinese Folks practise temple. -
I tell what you what it means to be a Buddhist in the first place.Originally posted by casino_king:That is just your opinion. They told me themselves that they are Buddhists. There is also a thread to tell Buddhists to celebrate Kuam Im birthday tommorrow in this forum.
To be a Buddhist, you have to refuge in the Three Treasures, which is the Buddha, Dharma, Sangha.
Kuan Im Temple was probably created by some folks practitioners, and I dont think they took refuge, and the temple doesnt offer people to take refuge either. I dont see monks and nuns staying in Kuan Im temple, so there is no Sangha there, and I dont think they offer dharma there.
Anyone who goes Kuan Im temple can correct me here if im wrong. -
Yo dude !!!Originally posted by casino_king:That is just your opinion. They told me themselves that they are Buddhists. There is also a thread to tell Buddhists to celebrate Kuam Im birthday tommorrow in this forum.
I feel your veri against Buddhism hor .... u got some issue please talk with a
open mind ...
finds very hard to talk to a deep sea clam in an ocean
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hmmm.... quite interesting of your one-way attack on Buddhism , kinda comicalOriginally posted by casino_king:"And to attain Complete Buddhahood "; the same thing... nothing physical and reality has not changed a bit. You are still who you are but maybe your outlook has changed.
I knew one American in Bangkok who was in a Buddhist temple as a monk for 4 years. When I met him, he had left the temple and was about to go and teach in the top university in Thailand.
I remarked to him casually while we were having lunch with some other expats... "The so called manifestations and claims of Buddhists are but events in the person's mind."
He looked at me with a smile and said: "Exactly."
and your friend is not interested to comment on what you said
basically it shows to people you are insulting yourself and others
first I was feeling how would your other expats feel if your friend reacted ,u should speak tactful,not using any religion as your punchline
I think your fren would be really disappointed that this comes from you,reflect on yourself ,seriously>>>> -
People like casino_king is why I am glad we have a forum of this kind.
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To: casino_king
You posted some good questions. And kudos to your courage for bringing them up though u knew they would invite criticisms.. or perhaps, critical debate on these issues was wat u intended for.
I have thoughts about your questions but the 11-page post is simply too long for me. Will respond to you at a later time perhaps on a new thread.
Thought it would help to have a summary of your points:
1. Your primary stance is that people should only adopt beliefs that are based on verifiable facts, or scientific evidence. Any other concepts that cannot be proved by scientific evidence are not worthy to be believed.
2. Some aspects of Buddhism has been verified by Science, such as the benefits of meditation. These are the aspects that can be accepted into a rational person's belief system. So does the law of cause and effect IN THE PRESENT LIFE.
3. Some aspects of Buddhism are not verifiable, and therefore only exist in imagination. You wonder what then makes Buddhists accept these concepts, since according to the logic of #1, these concepts fail to exist and are mere imaginary concepts conjured by one's mind. E.g. would be past and future lives.
Have I misread you or missed out any other important points? -
yes you are correct. emptiness is being with all in one whole (another word for one whole is fullness) - reaching out to all without attachment, good that you are picking up.Originally posted by casino_king:Emptiness is fullness and you think you sound so profund? Rich is poor, how about that?
some are cash rich but poor in health. some are poor in poverty but rich in giving out generous kindness and love.
i've never thought myself to sound profound neither will i have the intention to think i sound profound. -
The Mirror Of Mindfulness
mindfulness is the root of the Dharma.
mindfulness is the body of practice.
mindfulness is the fortress of the mind.
lack of mindfulness will allow the negative forces to overcome you.
without mindfulness you will be swept away by laziness.
lack of mindfulness is the creator of evil deeds.
without mindfulness and presence of mind,
nothing can be accomplished.
lack of mindfulness piles up shi t.
without mindfulness you sleep in an ocean of piss.
without mindfulness you are like a heartless zombie, a walking corpse.
- Nyoshul Khenpo Rinpoche -
we live in illusion
and the appearance of things.
there is a reality.
we are that reality.
when you understand this,
you see that you are nothing.
and being nothing,
you are everything.
that is all.
- Kalu Rinpoche -
I think you have misconception on Buddhism, can't blame you on this as you are ignorant of the teachings.Originally posted by casino_king:Do you pray to Buddhist Gods, live your life like it will affect how you will be reborn - karma - and believe that if you meditate hard enough you will levitate?
When you encounter life's problems, do you refer to 2549 year old teachings or do you use common sense based on your education?
Do you expect people to pray to you and offer food regularly after you die?
If you want to criticise, at least know the facts or get the facts right.
There is no praying or worshipping to Buddha. I think you confused with Taoism in the chinese taoist temple.
Offering of incense and flowers to the Buddha has symbolic meanings, incense as in purifying conduct and flowers is to remind us of the impermanency.
We pay respect by bowing down to the statue of Buddha is to enable us to lessen our pride and ego, and at the same time, admire and respect the qualities of the Buddha.
Go read up the life of the Buddha and you will know how great he has shown as example. There were once a group of religious people, jealous that Buddhism is gaining popularity in India, schemed to damage the reputation of the Buddha by asking a girl to feign pregnancy and malign the Buddha.
The Buddha did not respond to the false accusation and he took it in his stride with no hint of anger. What do you think of people in general, if they are falsely accused of a crime they did not commit?
He once used his skilful means to help a woman, who is so overcome with grief of her child's death, that she finally understood the purpose of the Buddha's intention to ask her obtain a mustard seed from any household that death does not occur and she went from houses to houses from morning to dawn, that death comes to all.