What will happen to people who don't believe in Buddhism?
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"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion which is based on experience, which refuses dogmatism. If there's any religion that would cope the scientific needs it will be BuddhismÂ…"
-- Albert Einstein -
"I think that Buddhism will supplant science! "
If we wait the next breakthrough in the cure for cancer from a Buddhist monastry, going by the record, we will not find it in the next 2549 years.
If we wait the next breakthrough in the advancement of the computer from a Buddhist monastry, going by the record, we will not find it in the next 2549 years.
If we wait the next breakthrough in the understanding of the human brain and mind from a Buddhist monastry, going by the record, we will not find it in the next 2549 years. Sure Buddha was at the forefront of human psychology during his time, but people, this is 2549 years later, human thought and abilities have advance... time to move on. -
Do you understand what "dogmatism" means? Please read it up.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion which is based on experience, which refuses dogmatism. If there's any religion that would cope the scientific needs it will be BuddhismÂ…"
-- Albert Einstein -
I dont think he meant to say Buddhism will supplant science in technology.. becos obviously, buddhism isnt about this at all.Originally posted by casino_king:"I think that Buddhism will supplant science! "
If we wait the next breakthrough in the cure for cancer from a Buddhist monastry, going by the record, we will not find it in the next 2549 years.
If we wait the next breakthrough in the advancement of the computer from a Buddhist monastry, going by the record, we will not find it in the next 2549 years.
If we wait the next breakthrough in the understanding of the human brain and mind from a Buddhist monastry, going by the record, we will not find it in the next 2549 years. Sure Buddha was at the forefront of human psychology during his time, but people, this is 2549 years later, human thought and abilities have advance... time to move on.
And neither is Buddhism about human psychology, Even psychology would not be an appropriate title, for the sutta is not concerned with any theoretical or conceptual interpretation of the mind. It deals only with the empirical facts of conscious experience and prescribes the techniques for mental development. - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/burns/wheel088.html
Buddha did not become enlightened through academic research of mental process or theoretical analysis - as i mentioned, buddha is beyond theory (remember the sutta quote?
). He became enlightened through direct intuitive experience and realising the nature of all phenomenon.
Nothing in science can reach Buddha's level of insights on this area. -
Of course i do know what dogmatism mean.Originally posted by casino_king:Do you understand what "dogmatism" means? Please read it up.
And I am saying - Buddhism - just like science, is not rooted in dogmatism, but as albert einstein said,
"Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural & spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity" -- Albert Einstein [1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press] -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Note that, Albert Einstein, other than saying Buddhism avoids dogma, it also says it avoids theology... like what I just said.
Anothing thing is.. As I have mentioned before, modern science is so into finding what is 'outside' but they have forsaken the 'within'.
Buddhism is much more advanced that anything else in terms of 'spiritual science'.
Lots of things you may not see it or believe it, but doesnt mean it is not true. Imagine you take a time machine back 3000 years ago, and tell people the world is round, that it is possible to make a machine that can fly in the sky, people think you are insane.
So the truth is, in terms of 'spiritual science', the world is still very backward. But if you realise the truths yourself, you will be among the minority who really know that 'the world is round' and 'you can make a machine that can fly in the sky'.Do you see the assumptions that you have made?
Like? As far as I know, science has no real knowledge about spirituality.
1. Spitiual matters.
What in the world are spiritual matters? To say that there is a spirit is not "well founded." Spirit is ancient man's worldview. Today, many "spiritual" phenomena are understood in terms of reality.When I look at Buddhism, frankly it is quite attractive. In the sense that it provides some interesting ideas for consideration. Unfortunately, it has many fantastic claims and assumptions and allusions that goes with it.
A round earth, and aeroplanes that fly in the sky, sounds very very fantastic to indigenous tribes and people who lived 3000 years ago. So as I just said...
Lots of things you may not see it or believe it, but doesnt mean it is not true.So I am simply curious why Buddhists like yourself, seemingly an educated person would find it normal to accept the fantasy? OK maybe to you it is not fantasy. How else would you then describe things that has not been proven?
[22:09] in pure awareness, there is complete clarity with no sense of 'I'. This clarity is so complete and clear that there is no doubt.
[22:10] becoz it is the only Real and therefore no doubt.
[22:11] words will prove futile here.
[22:11] one do not doubt about the experience of Suchness or Isness.
[22:11] or lose confident...etc
[22:11] coz it is more real than the real.
KARMA is just a suggestion and a possibility but is meaningless because we see bad things happen to good people and good things happening to bad people.
KARMA is most meaningful because it explains why bad things happen to good people, it is not fate, it is not because God is unfair, but it is due to karma brought over from a past life.
There is a saying "if you want to know your past life, look at what you are in the present. if you want to know your future life, look at what you are doing now."We know for example that on the whole, being educated brings tangible verifiable calculable results. So an educated person wants his children to be educated. Instead of teaching "Karma" to his children, an educated person will strive to educate his child or ensure that his child is well educated.
Why compare education and karma? And how does what you learn from school and karma contradict? Nothing.We know that a healthy lifestyle leads to a healthy life and so we live a healthy lifstyle and not assume that we are sick because of some things we did in our past life.
And how does knowing karma contradict with having healthy lifestyle? Karma is NOT fate but sort of the opposite.We know for example that addiction is a function of brain chemicals. We will then with that knowledge devise startegies to help that person overcome his addiction instead of preaching to him. Againg we do not preach to him unless we are convimced that preaching to him will help.
What kind of addiction? Alcohol addiction.. drug addiction.. yes its a function of chemicals. And he needs to take drugs to neutralise the effects and still he need to undergo counselling.
But things like gambling cannot be cured by taking chemicals. You mean gambling is an addiction that will be cured by drugs? Even if he gone insane bcos of gambling and needs to take drugs, I believe the most important is counselling and helping him psychologically.
In Buddhism we dont preach dharma to people and not help them. All dharmas taught by Buddha are meant to lead everyone to liberation. If the drug/gambling/etc addict is able to meet the Buddha, the better. The Buddha will teach him the dharma to be liberated from that addiction. Buddhadharma is the ultimate solution to addictions and the ultimate 'drug' to cure afflictions.
As I have mentioned before, all dharmas taught by Buddha are like medicine that cures disease, and a raft that brings us to the other shore. Why medicine? Because it cures us from our afflictions and achieve tranquility and bliss.
In Buddhism, we dont preach but help. Not like other religions. Do you ever see Buddhist evangelist and people who forcefully preach onto others? Or religious holy wars fought by Buddhism?I study Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism (mainly these three) for some ideas but I do not buy into the fantastic stuff.
Nothing is fantastic and can be seen for yourself. Take rebirth for an example.
...One of the important things with those past life memories is that they are very real to the person experiencing them. It's as if you are back there experiencing it. Anyone who has had a memory like that has no doubt in their mind about past lives. It's not a theory any more. Such memories are like remembering where you were this morning when you had breakfast. You have no doubts that that was you this morning, having that breakfast. You didn't imagine it. With the same clarity, or even greater clarity, you remember that that very old person was you, only it wasn't a few hours ago, it was many decades ago. It was a different time, a different body and a different life....
And of course when you attain enlightenment the Buddhadharma will become doubtless to you. You will realise the essence - the reality of yourself and the universe. -
Science and Technology are quite different from Buddhism dude.Originally posted by casino_king:"I think that Buddhism will supplant science! "
If we wait the next breakthrough in the cure for cancer from a Buddhist monastry, going by the record, we will not find it in the next 2549 years.
If we wait the next breakthrough in the advancement of the computer from a Buddhist monastry, going by the record, we will not find it in the next 2549 years.
If we wait the next breakthrough in the understanding of the human brain and mind from a Buddhist monastry, going by the record, we will not find it in the next 2549 years. Sure Buddha was at the forefront of human psychology during his time, but people, this is 2549 years later, human thought and abilities have advance... time to move on.
You know what the 4 Noble Truths are? Suggest you go read up.
Buddha revealed existences are suffering, there is a way to end it and that is Nirvana, period.
Science and Technology improves people's life, that all to it, cannot end continual existences.
I dun think you understand that anyway. -
Its difficult for an outsider who dunno anything about Buddhism, cant blame him for it. To each its own.
Refer my thread on do not criticise or insult religion, the doer who spits at the heaven, thinking it will soil the heaven, doesnt realise the spit comes back and soil himself. -
[quote]Originally posted by casino_king:
Hi,
Do you see the assumptions that you have made?
1. Spitiual matters.
What in the world are spiritual matters? To say that there is a spirit is not "well founded." Spirit is ancient man's worldview. Today, many "spiritual" phenomena are understood in terms of reality.
When I look at Buddhism, frankly it is quite attractive. In the sense that it provides some interesting ideas for consideration. Unfortunately, it has many fantastic claims and assumptions and allusions that goes with it.
So I am simply curious why Buddhists like yourself, seemingly an educated person would find it normal to accept the fantasy? OK maybe to you it is not fantasy. How else would you then describe things that has not been proven?
KARMA is just a suggestion and a possibility but is meaningless because we see bad things happen to good people and good things happening to bad people.
We know for example that on the whole, being educated brings tangible verifiable calculable results. So an educated person wants his children to be educated. Instead of teaching "Karma" to his children, an educated person will strive to educate his child or ensure that his child is well educated.
We know that a healthy lifestyle leads to a healthy life and so we live a healthy lifstyle and not assume that we are sick because of some things we did in our past life.
We know for example that addiction is a function of brain chemicals. We will then with that knowledge devise startegies to help that person overcome his addiction instead of preaching to him. Againg we do not preach to him unless we are convimced that preaching to him will help.
I study Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism (mainly these three) for some ideas but I do not buy into the fantastic stuff.
Why do you buy into it? I need the answer because gambling addicts hold on to gambling beliefs with all their heart as fervently as religious people.[/quote.
Well, I studied Buddhist studies for my O levels, but that is only an elementary introduction to Buddhism. I continued my interest after that and learned quite a bit more, I dun think you really studied that in-depth on Buddhism, Hinduism and other religions. Its not an assumption, its a fact.
There are many things that are beyond the comprehension of the mind, and science, so be open minded to it and not be closed minded.
I dun think you understand the workings of karma anyway, from the comments you posted.
Some of the comments you posted were gross misconception and plain ignorance, I dun think I need to go any further, do I. -
The Four Noble Truths are 4 of the best known Truths in the name of religion. You know you won't find life meaningless anymore.
Noble Eightfold Path is the best of all path to achieve Nirvana, ie to end of existences and sufferings that comes with existences. -
it is said that a thief's vision is so distorted that even when he meets a saint, all he can see is the saint's pocketbook.
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Originally posted by paperflower:
erm....
[b]it is said that a thief's vision is so distorted that even when he meets a saint, all he can see is the saint's pocketbook.
[/b] -
casino king,
light up your candle light and find your way out of your darkness of ignorance and wrong directions created by none other than your own mind. do not blame on or criticise any religions just because you don't understand or can't get answers. it is because you are not cultivated, open minded, flexible enough; if you are wise and smart, you yourself can be like Buddha teaching sentient beings. unfortunately, you just seemed to have lowered and lowering yourself further all this while in the continuing posts of yours.......
respect each and everyone and everything. you don't just live in your own world of opinions because the world is not existing just for you, it is for everyone.
when you say in real life, you respect people and it is online that you may be rude to people. how contradicting.......
this ain't self integrity and isn't that hypocrisy? how reliable can you be to people around you? be open minded and humble and humane.
genuine respect - basic important humanity values. -
Originally posted by zacken99:erm....
erm... about what?.... -
sis... u sound very knowledgeble...free must "du" me ya..Originally posted by paperflower: erm... about what?.... -
casino king,
like you, me and everyone, we are trying to fine-tune our actions so they reflect our deepest-held beliefs and values. fine-tune is the operative term here, how to live and act more and more in a manner congruent with our inner beliefs and words. this is a constant, ongoing and gradually unfolding process. we are all working in progress, striving to refine our lives.
life is like an experiment and everything we do is improvisational. we ought to be perfectly sincere, appreciate things as they are, understand casuality and its ethical implications and try to do our best. for doing our best is the very best any of us can do.
and.... this is Buddhist teachings for you to understand.
Buddhism doesn't believe in finality. it is about coming home, not about impossible, pie-in-the-sky promises. it can be as simple as we can be. because you are complicated, your path is complicated. -
Originally posted by zacken99:sis... u sound very knowledgeble...free must "du" me ya..
of cos not referring to me.......Originally posted by paperflower:it is said that a thief's vision is so distorted that even when he meets a saint, all he can see is the saint's pocketbook.
its an analogy....
i need to learn from you also. -
Hi Casino_King,
‘Spiritual Matters’ is merely a term to denote paranormal phenomenon, it is not an assumption. However If I were to assert that ‘spiritual matters really exist’, then it is an assumption. I believe I have not done so. Similarly if anyone were to assert that “spiritual matters do not exist” then he/she immediately makes it an assumption. The fact is, paranormal phenomenons are neither proven nor disproved. Thus, we have to explore further. But which and what method of exploration should we adopt?
I have stated that mere logical analysis isn’t the correct approach -- “It is inadequate to use rational thought to understand spiritual matters”, I have given my reasons. If you disagree, you must, at least tell me why or how through inference or syllogism itself is sufficient to ‘understand’ spiritual matters. Or prove that -- “It is inadequate to use rational thought to understand spiritual matters” is an untrue statement through logic of syllogism. Otherwise it is only reasonable and logical to employ a different approach.
Till now I have not spoken anything about Buddhism. I certainly do not want to deviate too much from this forum but as what many forumers have pointed out, you might have to put in a little more effort towards understanding some of the main core concepts and teachings of Buddhism -- Buddhism certainly isn't what you have perceived it to be. Like you, I have made some studies and practices in other religions (add Taoism to your list), I still think Buddhism best.
Lastly I do see some of your points. You might want to look into how man is defined by symbols for your gambler case. Again what I am going to say next might not be soothing to your ears but Buddhism truly teaches us how to go beyond these symbols. In whatever case, reserve an open for a fruitful discussion. We might not reach any conclusion but without an open mind, any form of discussion will eventually prove futile. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
would be if the mind is struck with one-life-ism. Have to study the word "goodness" more indepthly rather than the apparent goodness.
KARMA is just a suggestion and a possibility but is meaningless because we see bad things happen to good people and good things happening to bad people.
here's from LiaoFan's lessons:
http://www.etext.org/Religious.Texts/Misc/4teachen.html#chap_3
If we were to examine goodness closely, we would find that there are many different kinds
What is real goodness and false goodness?
What is honest goodness and crooked goodness?
What is hidden goodness and visible goodness?
What seems to be goodness but is actually not, and what does not appear to be goodness but actually is
What is improper goodness and proper goodness?
What is half goodness and full goodness?
What is big goodness and small goodness?
What is difficult goodness and easy goodness?
/\ -
When I asked you to find out what dogma is, you just refuse don't you? If like you say, Buddha asked you not to accept his teaching dogmatically, he meant that you must relate to it based on your own experience.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Nothing in science can reach Buddha's level of insights on this area.
As far as my experience tells me and by looking at reality, there is simply no evidence of past lives and rebirth. Neither has your experience. Without past lives and rebirth, then Karma is out too. You said that you are not at a certain level to be able to discern these things. When you fail to experience it or obtain conclusive evidence of it for yourself, you use dogma, that is, Buddha's teachings and all those references to the websites. Buddha himself tells you not to do that didn't he? He asked you to find out for yourself, to experience it yourself isn't it?
That is what Einstein find so interesting about Buddhism. That and the fact the there is no personal God.
So each person can find their own truth in Buddhism. Buddha gives you some guidelines and ask to discover it for yourself. But it seems the nature of many people not to be able to trust their own experiences. They want certainty. When they do not find the evidence for something, they cannot simply say I do not know. It makes him feel unstable. So they cling on to "truths" based on other's experience. So you hold on to truths that Jesus and Buddha or the Holy Book teaches even when it does not jell with your own experience.
It takes someone of the stature of Einstein to understand that Buddha does not expect his disciples to apply his teachings in a dogmatic manner. Buddha expects his disciples to discover the truths for themselves.
I would suggest that you tell me what your experiences are that makes you hold on to beliefs that should be in the realm of "maybe" "interesting" "I do not know" instead of holding on to them in a dogmatic manner when there are no evidence for them based on your own experience.
If you have experienced it, then maybe you can tell me about it and I see if I experience the same and if I do, we are then in agreement. Otherwise, we continue to cling on to doubt and continue to search or simply rest in the unknown and base all our decisions in life on reality, the known, the ethical if you want to and the logical. -
most of the gamblers(like you)dun even remember their fathers' names during their games.Neverthless their past lives.As there is a chinese saying...Originally posted by casino_king:When I asked you to find out what dogma is, you just refuse don't you? If like you say, Buddha asked you not to accept his teaching dogmatically, he meant that you must relate to it based on your own experience.
As far as my experience tells me and by looking at reality, there is simply no evidence of past lives and rebirth. Neither has your experience. Without past lives and rebirth, then Karma is out too. You said that you are not at a certain level to be able to discern these things. When you fail to experience it or obtain conclusive evidence of it for yourself, you use dogma, that is, Buddha's teachings and all those references to the websites. Buddha himself tells you not to do that didn't he? He asked you to find out for yourself, to experience it yourself isn't it?
That is what Einstein find so interesting about Buddhism. That and the fact the there is no personal God.
So each person can find their own truth in Buddhism. Buddha gives you some guidelines and ask to discover it for yourself. But it seems the nature of many people not to be able to trust their own experiences. They want certainty. When they do not find the evidence for something, they cannot simply say I do not know. It makes him feel unstable. So they cling on to "truths" based on other's experience. So you hold on to truths that Jesus and Buddha or the Holy Book teaches even when it does not jell with your own experience.
It takes someone of the stature of Einstein to understand that Buddha does not expect his disciples to apply his teachings in a dogmatic manner. Buddha expects his disciples to discover the truths for themselves.
I would suggest that you tell me what your experiences are that makes you hold on to beliefs that should be in the realm of "maybe" "interesting" "I do not know" instead of holding on to them in a dogmatic manner when there are no evidence for them based on your own experience.
If you have experienced it, then maybe you can tell me about it and I see if I experience the same and if I do, we are then in agreement. Otherwise, we continue to cling on to doubt and continue to search or simply rest in the unknown and base all our decisions in life on reality, the known, the ethical if you want to and the logical.
"Gamble till dun even rember their surnames"
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the Buddha once told the layman Dighajanu that there are 4 things conducive to happiness in this world:
to be skilled,
to be efficient,
to be energetic,
to be earnest and learned...
in whatever profession one has; to conscientiously protect one's income and family's mean of support; to have virtuous, trustworthy and faithful friends and spiritual aspirations; to be content and to live within one's means.
this advice aptly demontrates the Buddha's commonsense approach as well as his capacity to relate to laymen. -
To Mr CASINO,
Buddhist doctrine of rebirth should be distinguished from the theory of reincarnation which implies the transmigration of a soul and its invariable material rebirth. Buddhism denies the existence of an unchanging or eternal soul created by a God or emanating from a Divine Essence (Paramatma).
When did rebirth begin?
Our Mind, that carries over from life to life has no beginning - its continuity is infinite. Each moment of our Mind is a continuation of the previous moment. Who we are and what we think and feel depends on who we were yesterday. Our present Mind is a continuation of the past Mind. One moment of our Mind was caused by the previous moment of our Mind. This continuity can be traced back to childhood and even to when we were a fetus in our Mother's womb. Even before the time of conception, our mind-stream existed in another body.
Using the example of a number line, looking left from position zero, there is no first negative number, and looking right, there is no highest last number - one more can always be added. Likewise, our mind-stream has no beginning or end. We all have had countless past rebirths, and our Mind will continue to exist infinitely. By purifying our mind-stream, we can make our future existence better and better. -
casino king,
in a livelihood of a gambler, the sayings are as such:
few men have virtue to withstand the highest bidder.
- George Washington
virtue has never been as respectable in society as money.
- Mark Twain
agree? -
Originally posted by casino_king:
1. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church.
[b]
When I asked you to find out what dogma is, you just refuse don't you? If like you say, Buddha asked you not to accept his teaching dogmatically, he meant that you must relate to it based on your own experience.
2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. See Synonyms at doctrine.
3. A principle or belief or a group of them: “The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present” (Abraham Lincoln).
Since the truths of Buddhism is not derived by mere theory, or beliefs, neither are we asked to blindly believe in them, none of the truths Buddha taught can be classified as 'dogmas'.
Rather, those who fervently DISbelief it, maybe because they do not want to believe in it for some reasons, which is really a mere assumption due to his incapability to perceive what the Buddha perceived, it is his dogma.
Would you fervently disbelief what science has proven so far? Similarly, Buddha, and uncountable other enlightened people, have proven the truths and are taught to us as Buddhadharma.
Nobody will force you to believe, but it is also Dogmatic, to disbelief.As far as my experience tells me and by looking at reality, there is simply no evidence of past lives and rebirth.
What do you mean by looking at reality? I think Thusness said very well here. It is merely your assumption. Logical assumption. Is logical reasoning REALITY? Far from it. If "logical reasoning" can lead someone to believe that we will never one day fly on aeroplanes, or the world is actually not flat but round, then there is no reason why "logical reasoning" alone cannot lead to the comprehension of spiritual truths.
Let me cite you an example. You are just like a person, who after seeing that a scientist has done certain experiments and proven a scientific fact. Then you say "as far as my experience tell me and by looking at reality, there is simply no evidence of past live and rebirth". The fact is the experiment is done by uncountable people, and you can do it yourself to find out, but instead of doing that experiment you proclaim that just because it is not within your perception it is not true. So what is Reality? Your own perception of "reality"? What Buddha attained is attainable by all of us. The ultimate result is ENLIGHTENMENT, BUDDHAHOOD.
And Thusness also said, you cannot derive answers to spiritual matters through logical deduction. Please read carefully and seriously consider what Thusness said.Neither has your experience. Without past lives and rebirth, then Karma is out too.
That's because I haven't really been practising, and neither do I meditate very deeply. You should ask someone else who meditates more deeply. I have mentioned a few of our forummers here have recalled their previous lifetimes. I am merely a learner.
Although I dont meditate often as of now (I will make an effort to do so) the times I meditate, there are really interesting experiences which I would rather not relate now. As I said I am still new to Buddhism, I only began interest a few years ago when I was 12, my mother brought me to the dharma centre to learn the dharma.
Not only will you see your past life, through practise you will also gradually understand and see Karma. Karma - volitions - are 'stored' within your 8th Consciousness.You said that you are not at a certain level to be able to discern these things. When you fail to experience it or obtain conclusive evidence of it for yourself, you use dogma, that is, Buddha's teachings and all those references to the websites. Buddha himself tells you not to do that didn't he? He asked you to find out for yourself, to experience it yourself isn't it?
Yes - find it out for yourself.That is what Einstein find so interesting about Buddhism. That and the fact the there is no personal God.