What will happen to people who don't believe in Buddhism?
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Those who do not practise Buddhism, they will still be illusioned, they will still suffer in life, they cannot experience the highest bliss, they will not be liberated, they will not gain in wisdom, and on the grounds of reincarnation, he will still be reborn as a sentient being and be part of the samsaric cycle.Originally posted by casino_king:Well if it is up to oneself, the answer to the question: What will happen to people who don't believe in Buddhism?
is
Nothing.
After all this debate you tell me to depend on myself and all the while I have been telling you to use your own intelligence and education to decide for your self (depend on yourself.) I do not call myself a Buddhist but you call yourself a Buddhist... why??????????????
Similarly, using an analogy, if a hard core and illusioned gambler does not seek conselling, he will continue to suffer in his illusion and never be able to break out of the addiction. And if he didnt seek counselling, of course nothing will happen to him (except he continue his old ways), he may not even realise he needs counselling or he had any problem, but the wise knows that the gambler definitely has a problem and needs to be liberated from that situation. -
Now we are back to square one. You make a lot of claims without any evidence or basis.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Those who do not practise Buddhism, they will still be illusioned, they will still suffer in life, they cannot experience the highest bliss, they will not be liberated, they will not gain in wisdom, and on the grounds of reincarnation, he will still be reborn as a sentient being and be part of the samsaric cycle.
Similarly, using an analogy, if a hard core and illusioned gambler does not seek conselling, he will continue to suffer in his illusion and never be able to break out of the addiction. And if he didnt seek counselling, of course nothing will happen to him (except he continue his old ways), he may not even realise he needs counselling or he had any problem, but the wise knows that the gambler definitely has a problem and needs to be liberated from that situation.
Your gambling analogy is based on "reality." People can show you statistics and examples of what harm problem gambling can do. People can tell you that there are 2-5% of problem gamblers in the state of california, show you the data, describe for you the method to obtain the data and tell you who the people are who endorsed the findings. Those who are sceptical can do their own research and confirm or refute the findings.
Counsellors can tell you what works and what does not work and how many percent of people were help using this method and using that method and how long they were helped and how many relapsed.
Your paragraph states:
"Those who do not practise Buddhism, they will still be illusioned, they will still suffer in life, they cannot experience the highest bliss, they will not be liberated, they will not gain in wisdom, and on the grounds of reincarnation, he will still be reborn as a sentient being and be part of the samsaric cycle.."
There are 6 billion non Buddhists and most are happily going about their lives. So your claim that they are living in a state of illusion is baseless. See? This is just one example. -
There are many gamblers who are very happy too. Samsara is like gambling, sometimes you are happy, sometimes you are down. Sometimes you win lots of money, sometimes you lose alot of money. The truth remains: nothing is lasting and everything is impermanent. Craving leads to suffering, this is what the Buddha taught.Originally posted by casino_king:Now we are back to square one. You make a lot of claims without any evidence or basis.
Your gambling analogy is based on "reality." People can show you statistics and examples of what harm problem gambling can do. People can tell you that there are 2-5% of problem gamblers in the state of california, show you the data, describe for you the method to obtain the data and tell you who the people are who endorsed the findings. Those who are sceptical can do their own research and confirm or refute the findings.
Counsellors can tell you what works and what does not work and how many percent of people were help using this method and using that method and how long they were helped and how many relapsed.
Your paragraph states:
"Those who do not practise Buddhism, they will still be illusioned, they will still suffer in life, they cannot experience the highest bliss, they will not be liberated, they will not gain in wisdom, and on the grounds of reincarnation, he will still be reborn as a sentient being and be part of the samsaric cycle.."
There are 6 billion non Buddhists and most are happily going about their lives. So your claim that they are living in a state of illusion is baseless. See? This is just one example.
Similarly there are many happy people in Samsara, although most people will tell you life is full of suffering.
Even if lets say, you live in heaven, everything is still impermanent and subject to dukkha. No conditioned phenomena is lasting. The only lasting bliss is Nirvana, known as the Highest Bliss.
Even if you have all the money, all the women you ever wanted, you cannot escape death and illness. You are not liberated from the Eight Distresses. And worse of all, all that you have means nothing when you know you have cancer or you are dying. None of it will be of any good to you anymore and you will not have the mood to enjoy your life. You cant bring any of them to the next life either.
And as I have mentioned, Buddhists 'really are happier' -
In fact Dukkha covers not only negative aspect but positive aspects as well.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
There is something that I feel has been largely misunderstood and I wish to clarify. Our forum name is ~ Buddhism: Wisdom Bliss ~... understandably, since this is a Buddhist forum, there is 'Buddhism', and since we wish to attain Buddha's enlightenment and wisdom, there is the word 'Wisdom', but why 'Bliss'? What has bliss got to do with Buddhism? People question this because they are stuck to worldly point of view and they think that hapiness is money, material possessions, a great partner, etc etc... you know better.
We want all these things due to our ego and cravings. But ego and craving are never extinguished by the fulfilment of desires. It just gets greedier and greedier. You will know this by observing a baby grow towards adulthood. As he grows older he is less easily satisfied and demands more. It becomes a habit. (note: habits can be brought over to the next life!) This is not bliss but suffering. Dukkha. Unfortunately we are not even aware. (note: Not aware = ignorance. Awareness is the nature of the Buddha.)
Actually Dukkha in Buddhism is very wide. Much wider than most of us would have imagined. When Buddhism says 'suffering is an inevitable part of life', people may only think of physical pain, but the nature of Dukkha is much more than that. The state of mental afflictions is itself dukkha. If we attach to something impermanent it is dukkha. We feel anxious, despairing, frustrated, irritated, upset, disappointed, discomfort, anguish, painful and disgusted, all these are dukkha.
Sometimes we have a success and feel very satisfied with our own performance. However, [b]this satisfaction itself is again Dukkha , simply because it does not stay forever. In a higher stage of meditation practice, you do not feel any mental annoyance at all. It is very calm and peaceful. It is called Sukha - happiness. Again, this happiness is Dukkha, not because it causes unhappiness or suffering at that moment but because it does not stay forever. It changes. It starts and finishes. So it is Dukkha. You see Dukkha does not cover only the negative side of life but the positive one as well.
When we understand this, we will know why even the heavens in the six realms cannot escape this (dukkha), and it is only by the honest cultivation of the Dharma will we be able to be freed from sufferings and attain the Highest Bliss. After all, all the tripitaka and twelve divisions (teachings Buddha expounded) all point humanity towards true Bliss. Therefore I say Dukkha is perhaps one of the most misunderstood concept - the reason why Buddhism is sometimes seen as pessimistic. But the concept of Dukkha is not pessimistic.
A student went to his meditation teacher and said, "My meditation is horrible! I feel so distracted, or my legs ache, or I'm constantly falling asleep. It's just horrible!" "It will pass," the teacher said matter-of-factly. A week later, the student came back to his teacher. "My meditation is wonderful! I feel so aware, so peaceful, so alive! It's just wonderful!' "It will pass," the teacher replied matter-of-factly.
Zen story
see: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/page4.htm (concept of Dukkha)
The following conversation took place when my Master came to Singapore for a great dharma discussion session in 1989.
http://www.jenchen.org.sg/buddhism.htm#dharmatalk
Question: The title of your Dharma talk is Human Bliss Culture; why then when you answer questions from the audience you did not mention Human Bliss Culture at all? Many of my friends here and I would like to know what is Human Bliss Culture.
The culture of Buddhism is Bliss Culture
Answer: It is because the bliss culture that you have in mind and what I have in mind are different. The bliss culture that you have in mind may be how to prosper with great wealth and fortune, or how to have a good wife in order for the family to have bliss. In this manner, the definition of bliss is too narrow! We need to know that the culture of Buddhism is the real bliss culture. If everybody is able to attain the ultimate Nirvana, then this is indeed the real bliss culture.
Nibbana is the highest Bliss. - Dhammapada
The purpose of our learning Buddhism is to distance from suffering and attain happiness. Many people think that to distance from suffering and attain happiness means going to the Western Pure Land. In fact, it is not only this. When we distance from suffering and attain happiness, we have to instantaneously distance from suffering, instantaneously attain happiness and liberation. Some people may be suspicious; how can liberation be attained so easily? In fact, it is very simple. If someone scolds you, and you apologize to him, then that is a small liberation. If someone hits you, and you retaliate; an eye for an eye, then isnÂ’t that very miserable? What happen if that results in loss of life? Even though you are rude to me, I will still apologise very politely to you. IsnÂ’t that being liberated? This is Jen Chen BuddhismÂ’s teaching of liberation. If whilst alive, we cannot even attain small liberationÂ’s like this, then what more to say of liberation after death? In the course of our daily lives, if we are liberated at every moment, then in time to come we will be able to attain the great liberation. Please think it over, isnÂ’t this a very blissful? This is but to use a small matter to illustrate the path of liberation. If we are able to understand more of the Buddha-Dharma and apply them in our life, family, society, country, and to the extent of the entire humanity of the world, then isnÂ’t this a great bliss culture? Therefore, we say that the culture of Buddhism is Bliss Culture. -
Same can be said to Buddhism.
Counsellors can tell you what works and what does not work and how many percent of people were help using this method and using that method and how long they were helped and how many relapsed.
All dharmas taught by Buddha are like medicine to cure the mental disease, like a raft to bring you to the other shore. 84000 Dharma Doors are all methods to cure the "mind-illness".
If there were no sentient minds, there wouldn't have been any Buddhism and buddhadharma taught. As Buddha used to say, if there wasnt ageing, illness and death, there wouldn't have been Buddhas to guide sentient beings. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
why are people born healthy and handycap, born rich and poor etcs? if it's fate by God/ nature, then it's unfair. but karma energy is balance and fair.
Everybody hopes that bad people will get their just desserts. That does not make it so. Anyway everybody dies in the end whether you are good or bad.
t'is why we reject randomism and accept rebirth.
rebirth is extended version of reincarnation, it's also relative. Our human cells undergo 'reborning' very 7 years. hence we are actually having a new body every 7 years so to speak. this is relative to countless lifes. Our thoughts also undergo 'reborning' every moments. at one time we like this then on the next we lose our interest.
if the previous life 2 ppl were to harm each another, then in future life, if these 2 person were to meet again, they will not go well.Conscience can be explained from evolutionary theory which is based on evidence and observing reality. People use to think that lightning and thunder were acts of God because they could not explain it. Now that we know it is due to natural causes, we do not use imagination to explain it.
ah ha, i don't think you actually seen the evidence. you just read or heard it from the media. becareful what the media teaches. they changes theory when new prove is found. like evolution for example. u really believe we come from apes? they say u believe. it might seem real, but who's to say about invisible things like conscience.
anyway, since u brought this up, Buddhism for people can be observe from reality. some of the karma happening can be seen in one life also. i see it in families, documentries as well as mine own.
Buddha also taught that all things undergo change/impermenence. this we can see. evidence is in reality. Buddhism can be like theories to you. but many scientists also come up with theories and they prove it from basic logic and tests. that's why even Albert Einstein, to name a few scienists/doctors/philosophy/physicist like what Buddha taught. it's practical.Why say Karma, which is baseless instead of saying, evolution? Social evolution?
u can give it what ever name you want. if the meaning is same then it's the same.
When you are grounded in reality, then you make logical decisions. When every body make logical decisions, you will not have people killing other people because of some cartoons or suicide bombers.
fyi, i haven't seen buddhist monks/nun in the whole of history resolve to killing and suicide bombing. they normally are the most torerance of the society. on the other hand they normally get bullied.
i think if you never study deep enough, it's difficult for you to understand.
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55-58. Since this world is created by superstition (Tib: nam-tog) [conceptuality], if we eradicate the creator, superstition, we can attain liberation. The Buddha said that it is superstition that causes us to fall into the ocean of samsara. Therefore, that which is to be avoided is superstition, but the emptiness of superstition, which is like the sky, like empty space, is that which is to be practiced. By achieving this, we will be able to see the absolute nature of existence. Therefore, the bodhisattvas' practice is to avoid superstition and thus to achieve the non-superstitious mind. Through the various different means of logic-by realizing the emptiness of the produced and of inherent existence-we can avoid superstition and achieve the wisdom of shunyata.
Commentary on A Lamp for the Path to Enlightenment
Khunu Lama Rinpoche
http://www.lamayeshe.com/otherteachers/khunu/commentary.shtml
http://www.budaedu.org/ghosa/C008/T0183/
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If you can produce evidence for Nirvana, you will most certainly be awarded the Nobel prize. If all Buddhists achieve Nirvana, there will be nobody who will not be Buddhists.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Even if lets say, you live in heaven, everything is still impermanent and subject to dukkha. No conditioned phenomena is lasting. The only lasting bliss is Nirvana, known as the Highest Bliss.
Hello, it has been 2500 years. The Thai calender is now 2549.
After 2549 years Buddhists are still chasing an impossible dream. -
Very delighted for this topic, because it has increased my wisdom and concentration.
This has also further affirm me that we cannot change others, except ourselves. - In fact this is also the teaching of the Dharma.
Thank you and I rejoice. I am rejoicing because someone have just reinforced my determination. I am grateful because someone have just deepened my insight. I am also very happy because, someone have reduced others', including myself, karma obstacles.
I am not worry about what others think and do. But I am just a little worry about some of the impolite and intruding statements recorded in this topic. Be careful because the public can read these.
NamoAMiTuoFo. -
The only way to produce evidence for nirvana is to 'experience' nirvana yourself in this lifetime. You can be a witness to it, you can teach others how to reach it, but you cannot grant anyone Nirvana. Nirvana is BEYOND time and space, it is unconditioned, therefore you cannot possibly 'show' it to someone else. But you can infer that if the conditioned world exists, there will be the unconditioned. And not only infer, countless enlightened people are proof.Originally posted by casino_king:If you can produce evidence for Nirvana, you will most certainly be awarded the Nobel prize. If all Buddhists achieve Nirvana, there will be nobody who will not be Buddhists.
Hello, it has been 2500 years. The Thai calender is now 2549.
After 2549 years Buddhists are still chasing an impossible dream.
And you wont get a nobel prize.
And as said for 2549 years, countless people have achieved it. -
yes there's no nobel prize for attaining nirvana. if there's a prize to claim for attaining nirvana, then it's no longer a nirvana. the "prize" is not a prize, it is inconceivable, it is vast, limitness, timeless with everything within in an emptiness called FREEDOM BLISS yet reaching out to every single existence.
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Exactly, and Nirvana isnt something that one will reach only after life, in a faraway realm.
One can experience it now, and many people have done that. Perhaps casino king forgot to search the net as I have suggested. -
You pointed to the problem.Originally posted by casino_king:If all Buddhists achieve Nirvana, there will be nobody who will not be Buddhists.
The problem is, although many many people have reached nirvana, more have NOT reached nirvana.
Reaching Nirvana is simple, but not easy. I repeat - simple, but not easy, because of our karmic tendencies, our mental habits, our attachments and layers of illusions binding us to samsara.
Therefore it takes a long period of practise...
If nirvana is so easy to attain, then probably everyone in the world will have become buddhists, but this is not the case.
Many people are ignorant of buddhism, and many have been attracted to other promises by other religions. I believe a number of singaporeans dont even know what buddhism is about, they relate buddhism to worshipping of gods and deities etc. You get what i mean.
In the west it is different. Interest in Buddhism is picking up very fast there. -
This is posted by an ex-moderator who no longer frequents the forum because of his busy schedule. He himself is also a realised person
Originally posted by namelessness:
I used to do brainwave research on An-Hsiang ChÂ’an practitioners for a period of time. Out of 7 subjects who are enlightened, I found out that their brainwaves are somewhat different from others. First of all, their main frequencies all appears at the lower Alpha or Delta range that indicates they are more relaxed. Secondly, bandwidth of the main frequency is much narrower that indicates more order and concentration. Thirdly, overall brainwave rhythm is more consistent that indicates higher mind stability. And finally, synchronization of both hemispheres is higher that indicates better coordination.
What surprised me is that one subject’s brainwave even showed the pattern of Schumann resonance(See figure below). He told me that he was in the state of deep An-Hsiang while measuring. I guess perhaps that is the state of mind what the the Chinese called “Men in one with the Heaven”.
The above research was incomplete because no comparison was made to others other than An-Hsiang Ch'an practitioners. ItÂ’s purely my personal interest and I was not trained in that area. It was only good enough for me to be deeply involved in the practice of An-Hsiang ChÂ’an. [b]And the research was stopped because I knew that current scientific progress is not advanced enough to prove anything yet. We could only get a small glimpse of it. -
Let's see
Nirvana:
1. FREEDOM BLISS,
2. cannot be measured
3. cannot be observed
4. simple but not easy
5. many people claimed to have achieved it
6. can be achieved in this life time
7. timeless
Please contribute more if there are...
only way to produce evidence for nirvana is to 'experience' nirvana yourself
BEYOND time and space
cannot possibly 'show' it to someone else
countless enlightened people are proof
if the conditioned world exists, there will be the unconditioned
claims that are not supported by evidence. -
When something cannot be shown to anybody; cannot be described
Can only be experienced in one's own mind
It simply means that it does not exists and is only a figment of one's imagination.
It simply means that if you work hard at it, you will also - get it. What you get is an idea, a thought that does not exists outside your mind. It does not change reality. What changes is that now you have an idea and you change your life according to this idea that you have conceptualised?
so far am I correct? -
casino king,
it is a personal direct experience with no ideals no ideas from theory or dogma.
it is just like wind blows at you, you can feel it, can't you. can you see wind? can you grasp wind with your hands? you can't see wind and can't grasp wind; thus it doesn't prove wind doesn't exist which many many have encountered the same.
evidence is in there all around you within and out. use your mind to see not with your flesh eyes. -
Nope. Nirvana is beyond conceptualisations. Because concepts, ideas, and knowledge are still under the catergory of 'perceptions' and perceptions is still rooted in ignorance. Thats why Zen masters use very little words but emphasize a direct awakening to the ultimate reality. In other words, buddhism is not adding something into your mind, but removing all the garbage from your mind, thus,Originally posted by casino_king:When something cannot be shown to anybody; cannot be described
Can only be experienced in one's own mind
It simply means that it does not exists and is only a figment of one's imagination.
It simply means that if you work hard at it, you will also - get it. What you get is an idea, a thought that does not exists outside your mind. It does not change reality. What changes is that now you have an idea and you change your life according to this idea that you have conceptualised?
so far am I correct?
To avoid evil
to cultivate good
and to cleanse one's mind
this is the teaching
of the Buddhas. - Buddha
It is not reality is not changed, but when you are enlightened you realise reality. Of course when you attain Nirvana, your buddha nature is not increased nor decreased, but it means you have removed all the garbage of your mind to awaken to it. -
I dont know what you mean by evidence. So many people have attained itOriginally posted by casino_king:claims that are not supported by evidence. So they are living proof and witness to the statement "there is nirvana". But if you are asking for proof as in... the stuff namelessness did, then I also have mentioned, or rather my ex-moderator himself has mentioned, ...because I knew that current scientific progress is not advanced enough to prove anything yet. We could only get a small glimpse of it.
But we can infer it by many buddhist spiritual masters who have attained enlightenment, and enlightened friends, being with them and learning from them. -
How you can compare Buddhist experiences with wind is amazing. If you can show me Buddhists claims like people can prove "wind" then I would not be here complaining the lack of evidence.Originally posted by paperflower:casino king,
it is a personal direct experience with no ideals no ideas from theory or dogma.
it is just like wind blows at you, you can feel it, can't you. can you see wind? can you grasp wind with your hands? you can't see wind and can't grasp wind; thus it doesn't prove wind doesn't exist which many many have encountered the same.
evidence is in there all around you within and out. use your mind to see not with your flesh eyes.
You keep talking about direct experience but so far all I read is that it is a mental phenomena. It is to use your example, not like wind where when you experience wind blowing you can show everybody the effects of what is known as wind.
Buddhist experiences are completely mental processes and if that is not "thought" "imagination" I can certainly use more impolite words to describe it. -
So now we are getting closer and closer to what Buddhism truly is. It is a "To avoid evil; to cultivate good and to cleanse one's mind"Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I dont know what you mean by evidence. So many people have attained it So they are living proof and witness to the statement "there is nirvana". But if you are asking for proof as in... the stuff namelessness did, then I also have mentioned, or rather my ex-moderator himself has mentioned, ...because I knew that current scientific progress is not advanced enough to prove anything yet. We could only get a small glimpse of it.
But we can infer it by many buddhist spiritual masters who have attained enlightenment, and enlightened friends, being with them and learning from them.
Totally human mental thought processes. Like I said, there is no reason to refer to 2549 yaer old teachings to come to the conclusion of what is good and right and wise. Education is better. -
Since everyone's buddha nature is wholly complete, it is possible to point to your buddha nature as a person points to the wind.Originally posted by casino_king:How you can compare Buddhist experiences with wind is amazing. If you can show me Buddhists claims like people can prove "wind" then I would not be here complaining the lack of evidence.
You keep talking about direct experience but so far all I read is that it is a mental phenomena. It is to use your example, not like wind where when you experience wind blowing you can show everybody the effects of what is known as wind.
Buddhist experiences are completely mental processes and if that is not "thought" "imagination" I can certainly use more impolite words to describe it.
But it takes a enlightened master to point it out to you, and also your own capacity to realise it. Not everyone is able to. In the past, some patriarches get enlightened after reading a single line of the sutras. That is because their capacity is very great. Such patriarches are rare nowadays.
You are right, Nirvana is not about Physical phenomena, but neither is it about Mental phenomena. Because Nirvana cannot be achieved by thinking, conceptualising, etc. It comes from LIBERATION from physical and mental phenomena, all phenomenas whether physical or mental no longer affect you after liberation.
If the vast sky is seen as our original nature, physical and mental phenomena are seen as clouds passing by the vast sky. It cannot obstruct you. -
Have you heard what I said?Originally posted by casino_king:So now we are getting closer and closer to what Buddhism truly is. It is a "To avoid evil; to cultivate good and to cleanse one's mind"
Totally human mental thought processes. Like I said, there is no reason to refer to 2549 yaer old teachings to come to the conclusion of what is good and right and wise. Education is better.
What mental thought process are you talking about. I have no idea what you mean -
From our forum friend Longchen,
In one 'awakening' meditation, I came to a state of no thoughts. Such experiences are very hard to describe. This is because the explanation process itself, is within the medium of thoughts and concepts. It is impossible to describe a state of no thoughts using thoughts! Anyway, in the void of no thoughts, one naturally assume that everything must be an unconscious blank. However, that was not the case! What came next was quite a revelation to me. In the void of no thought, I realise myself to be an omni Presence... Here's how I will describe him.
------
"The Presence is all pervasive, yet un-intrusive. IT seems to be in all things and observes with utter passiveness. IT exists beyond concepts, beliefs and do not need any form. Therefore, I understand IT as eternal. IT also seems to be the subtler state of myself. I also got the feeling that IT existed in all my lifetimes or even more. If I were to name IT, I will describe IT as The Eternal Presence."
I believed the Eternal Presence is the God/Source Presence within oneself. This Presence is also called the Absolute, Dharmakaya. The paradox of it, is that is this not an object and is absolutely material-less.
About the Presence, it is ever present for it is us beyond the mind. You didn't see it doesn't means it is not there.
The God Presence is within us and more and IS us; always, even at this moment. This is the part that is simply pure awareness.I also too feels that our perception of the universe is a hologram... and that the hologram itself is thoughts.
Also see: The Universe as a Hologram - Holographic Reality
As individual selfs, we only perceive our own thoughts... or rather we are these thoughts.
My opinion is that all of us are individual containments within a vast/infinite 'body' of All that is. We are all one... and are different expressions (reciever) of the ONE.
When thinking, we perceive ourselves as separate beings. When the thinking mind is stilled (no thoughts/Now), we realised what emanated the thoughts... It appears to me as a 'bright' energetic vastness. This infinite vastness is us... we all meet here.
Suffering appears to me to be the thoughts... that creates a 'personalised sense of self'. It is the personalised sense of self that gave 'meaning' to the invisible vastness. In the vastness, there appears to me ... 'no meaning'.
I must say... I have not entered into these experiences long enough to give more concrete answers....
so these are just my understanding at current stage. -
casino king,
sorry to tell you this but i'm just being frank and honest. i only see you not using your mind to think before you talk but you are using your mouth to think and having some verbal-diarrhea (meaning without filtering your words).
there's a saying:
was it the flag that moved
or was it the wind that moved?
do u know whats the answer?