A Question Between Buddhism, Country and War
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Hi, Yo yo all!
I got one question, in buddhism killing is considered a very bad karma, what if in times of war we have to take up arms s and kill the enemy, will it be considered a bad karma? considered the fact that we need to defend our country against foreign aggressor. Old folks says it's OKed but one of my friend from NUS buddhism club say cannot leh....very confusing...
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If you don't kill, you and your loved ones will be killed, it's your own choice to decide
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if(killEnemy) {
badKarma=++;
if(familyLive)
goodKarma++;
else
badKarma++;
}
else if(!familyLive)
badKarma++;
else
goodKarma++;
if(feelingFunny) // feeling funny by my reply
badKarma++;
if(feelingAngry) // feeling pissed by my reply
badLarma++;
if(feelingSorry) // feeling sorry for my reply
goodKarma++;
if(badKarma>goodKarma)
this.gotoHell();
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Thats what all humans are presented with, choicesOriginally posted by maggot:If you don't kill, you and your loved ones will be killed, it's your own choice to decide -
i think it all starts from letting go. if theres no hatred, anger, fear, revenge, one will naturally won't want to fight back retaliate. if given a choice one has to go to war to fight under external circumstances(outside of yr inside) then protecting others putting others' lives above yours is already an act of letting go and showing unconditional compassion love not only to yr own family but also to other ppl.
if one who has no hatred, anger, revenge, fear, then why would one even wish or think of joining a force. there are many ways to contemplate this so nothing is a fixed answerscos when things happen naturally one will do/respond naturally and good karma or bad karma will also naturally be developed based on the actions done that time. if you think what u decide to do benefit yourself and others also then do it but killing is surely away from the buddhist practice. even a person wants to take yr life, that could be yr karma energy brought from previous life or time and let him take yr life cos u want to stop this cycle of revenge. but if yr family depends on you to support them and u can't die, thats also a karma that u have to face cos perhaps last time u might also have done this to someone before. so we have to act right here right now to practice the good wholesome deeds.
evrything comes unexpected, when face them u'll naturally know how to deal with them. -
Holy shit no programming please. I'm sick of these codes.Originally posted by Ito_^:if(killEnemy) {
badKarma=++;
if(familyLive)
goodKarma++;
else
badKarma++;
}
else if(!familyLive)
badKarma++;
else
goodKarma++;
if(feelingFunny) // feeling funny by my reply
badKarma++;
if(feelingAngry) // feeling pissed by my reply
badLarma++;
if(feelingSorry) // feeling sorry for my reply
goodKarma++;
if(badKarma>goodKarma)
this.gotoHell(); -
It is ok for defensive purposes. Of course, with war ethics. We cannot be the aggressors. No where did Buddha disallowed it (with exception of monastic monks and nuns, of course) for defence... ask your NUS friend where he heard it from. Buddha taught that having a strong army is an an essential quality of a good ruler.Originally posted by Texcoco II:Hi, Yo yo all!
I got one question, in buddhism killing is considered a very bad karma, what if in times of war we have to take up arms s and kill the enemy, will it be considered a bad karma? considered the fact that we need to defend our country against foreign aggressor. Old folks says it's OKed but one of my friend from NUS buddhism club say cannot leh....very confusing...
Pls read: http://www.beyondthenet.net/thedway/soldier.htm
As to whether there will be karma involved in the killing? Yes. But we will have to do our duties to defend the nation, so we just maintain our Awareness and not harbour any resentment against the enemies. Like this we will have less karma. -
killing is always never the solution. even sun-zi bing fa uses the wisdom of non-killing as 1 of the strategies as the ultimate victory so did buddha who just used his words to bring peace and stopped a warring situations. it all aint easy to said than done also. its important to learn the moral of the teachings and put suitably in our daily encounters and experiences.
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I was a Navy regular before , let me tell you my viewpoint .Originally posted by Texcoco II:Hi, Yo yo all!
I got one question, in buddhism killing is considered a very bad karma, what if in times of war we have to take up arms s and kill the enemy, will it be considered a bad karma? considered the fact that we need to defend our country against foreign aggressor. Old folks says it's OKed but one of my friend from NUS buddhism club say cannot leh....very confusing...
During the Buddha's time ,several war was fought by several kingdom, and there are minister who consult Buddha on the necessity to take up violence .
Buddha answer is of course, no to killing because it create bad karma
when the war is waged on one side ,if the aggressor is to annihilate the other kingdom, the main purpose of taking up arms is to protect the citizen of the state .
It is not considered as merciless killing.
War is such a scary thing , as according to Karmic law , this general and soldiers are still fighting down in hell.
"The gravy of a soup of dead animal is delicious
The common suffering and pain are seldom address
To understand why the war in this world fought
Do listen to the Cries from the Butcherhous in the midnite"
The many wars started is not ,basically due to inter country distrust ,but rather
the past killing by us as butcher or fishing , killing many animals
so it is best to stop killing
These are from some of the famous teachings of a vcd widely in distribution on
no killing. -
I believe that it is ok to fight and kill the invasion forces. We got to have some ways to protect the innocent people from being killed and to stop the invasion army from making bad karma.
Same concept goes for a country law, a person who commited a crime be it stealing, robbery or murder must be punished in a way so that the public order can be maintained. -
A war is a consequence, it itself is also a seed.
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Killing is bad, hence wars brings a lot of destruction to land, properties, lives and the eco-system and even when the war is over, it will bring ill-will to those conquered or vanquished. look at the animosity of china or s korea over japan.
The ruler of the kingdom or head of state will bear the responsibility of starting the war, they will have accumulated untold bad kamma as a result like after they die, they will go to avici hell for untold eons or kalpas.
Personally I feel that head of state shoud do their best to avoid wars, cos war bring untold sufferings to its people and the economy. But if another country is to wage war, no choice but to defend, but remember to treat POW's with humane treatment, not like torturing them for information or retribution , adhering to the Geneva conventions on war.
Buddha once stopped a war between the warring states, think was the shakyans over water on a river. The Buddha stood at the scene of the battleground and as a result, the warring states gave respect to the Buddha by not going to war. The Buddha asked the respective sides, what was the value of water, they replied value of water is little. The Buddha then asked, what's the value of blood, they replied it was invaluable. Such was the wisdom of the Buddha, that he helped averted a war.
Hope the current and future leaders or head of state will adopt a commen sense approach and not go to war for oil, minerals, money or whatever you can think of. -
In the days when the Pure Land is achieved on Earth - there will be no violence at all. Even though the Universal Monarch had a very strong army, he did not resort to any violence to conquer the 4 Human Planets of the 4 directions. People willingly submit to his rule.
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Pureland on earth? When will that be? Where the url?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:In the days when the Pure Land is achieved on Earth - there will be no violence at all. Even though the Universal Monarch had a very strong army, he did not resort to any violence to conquer the 4 Human Planets of the 4 directions. People willingly submit to his rule. -
it's when Maitreya come to attain Buddhahood here. it's around 5,670,000,000=5.67billion from now. since Maitreya bodhisattva is now in Tusita Heaven and because heavenly beings of Tusita Heaven live for 4000 years. and 1 celestial day in Tusita Heaven is 400 human years. so 4000x400x360 = 5,670,000,000 years!Originally posted by marcteng:Pureland on earth? When will that be? Where the url?
related topic is at:
The Earth People: Genesis in Buddhism
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=152581&page=0
posted by AEN.
before that happen, earth will undergo a chaotic stage before humanity starts to do good. therefore i don't encourage to stay in human realm. better to 'migrate' to Western PL first and come back.
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before that happen, earth will undergo a chaotic stage before humanity starts to do good. therefore i don't encourage to stay in human realm. better to 'migrate' to Western PL first and come back.
[quote]Originally posted by sinweiy:
[b]
Yes, most want to reborn in PL in Sukhavati. Once there, can stay there forever? want to ask Amitabha Buddha a lot of questions and seek his guidance. -
Originally posted by marcteng:
yes, as long as you feel enough.
Yes, most want to reborn in PL in Sukhavati. Once there, can stay there forever? want to ask Amitabha Buddha a lot of questions and seek his guidance.
[/b]
vow 22:
"Provided I become a Buddha, the Bodhisattvas whose activities have surpassed the stage of ordinary beings, who practice the universal virtue of Universal Worthy Boddhisatva, and who come to be born in my land will be subject to that one birth only, and then will become Buddha-elect (ekajatipratibuddhas), with the exception of those who, by their own free will, wish to remain in the stage of Bodhisattvahood to serve the Buddhas of ten quarters for the sake of delivering various beings. Then they will wear the armor of their vows and will travel to all worlds, performing their Bodhisattva duties and accumulating their stock of merit, converting the various beings whose numbers are as great as the grains of sand of the River Ganges to the highest perfect knowledge. Otherwise may I not attain enlightenment.
..but there's still an end to one's affinite though.
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Don't like that lah, come on.Originally posted by sinweiy:before that happen, earth will undergo a chaotic stage before humanity starts to do good. therefore i don't encourage to stay in human realm. better to 'migrate' to Western PL first and come back.
If all the saint and enlightened people go to western pure land, I am sure this planet will be very chaotic. Sakyamuni buddha land is also a pureland, if you have more yuan with our jiao4 zhu3, why not stays in sakyamuni buddha's pure land. -
getting killed has better karma then kill ppl
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
yes, as long as you feel enough.
vow 22:
"Provided I become a Buddha, the Bodhisattvas whose activities have surpassed the stage of ordinary beings, who practice the universal virtue of Universal Worthy Boddhisatva, and who come to be born in my land will be subject to that one birth only, and then will become Buddha-elect (ekajatipratibuddhas), with the exception of those who, [b]by their own free will, wish to remain in the stage of Bodhisattvahood to serve the Buddhas of ten quarters for the sake of delivering various beings. Then they will wear the armor of their vows and will travel to all worlds, performing their Bodhisattva duties and accumulating their stock of merit, converting the various beings whose numbers are as great as the grains of sand of the River Ganges to the highest perfect knowledge. Otherwise may I not attain enlightenment.
..but there's still an end to one's affinite though.
Hail Amitabha Buddha, whose vows are compassionate to all sentient beings.
May I and my kith and friends all reborn in Sukhavati.
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that's why they don't always stay there per se. it's kind of like a ship, where bodhisattvas go into the sea of suffering(ku3 hai3), to rescue suffering beings BACk to the 'ship'. it's also where noble beings gather together to study BuddhaDharma. once aboard the ship, they become non-retrogessing bodhisattvas. it can also be a place where they can return to recharge their 'energy', because one who had not reach a state of Buddhahood, cannot stay in a chaotic samsara for very long, they will retrogress by desire.Originally posted by justdoit77:Don't like that lah, come on.
If all the saint and enlightened people go to western pure land, I am sure this planet will be very chaotic. Sakyamuni buddha land is also a pureland, if you have more yuan with our jiao4 zhu3, why not stays in sakyamuni buddha's pure land.
btw sakyamuni buddha's Amitabha 's ying1sheng1(manifestation bodies). There's no condradicatio. Buddha is All in one, one in all when they attain the Triple Bodies. All return to fa3 sheng1.
note above is analogical saying.
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Maybe you forgot the part... that when the chaos is happening, for 52 years the dharma practitioners, Arhats, Pratyekabuddhas, Bodhisattvas, have already retreated to the mountains/caves. They retreated because nobody is willing to listen to dharma and practise virtues anymore. After the chaos is over, they return to society to teach people to become wholesome... and from there, lifespan increase until 84000 again.Originally posted by sinweiy:it's when Maitreya come to attain Buddhahood here. it's around 5,670,000,000=5.67billion from now. since Maitreya bodhisattva is now in Tusita Heaven and because heavenly beings of Tusita Heaven live for 4000 years. and 1 celestial day in Tusita Heaven is 400 human years. so 4000x400x360 = 5,670,000,000 years!
related topic is at:
The Earth People: Genesis in Buddhism
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=152581&page=0
posted by AEN.
before that happen, earth will undergo a chaotic stage before humanity starts to do good. therefore i don't encourage to stay in human realm. better to 'migrate' to Western PL first and come back.
/\
Anyway my shi fu recommends people to be Bodhisattvas/practise as a bodhisattva in this world. Of course... to be noted: his teachings does differ somewhat from mainstream Pure Land. His teachings are 'neither zen nor pure land, both zen and pure land, practise both esoteric [doesnt mean tantric but the 'unspeakable'] and exoteric, cultivation and understanding corresponds.'
It is very good to aspire to be born in Amitabha PL, but he also says don't forget to return to Saha world as Bodhisattvas. Samsara is full of sufferings, we should have the compassion to help them. But if even now we can become Bodhisattvas, then all pure lands are within our reach. We can go to the infinite buddha lands ourselves.
But as for the Pure Land to be established during the time of Maitreya, it is not simply a matter of waiting for Maitreya Buddha to come to this world. He is teaching in Tushita Heaven right now because the devas have greater blessings than us. In the future, his celestial disciples will be reborn in this Earth and become his disciples. But there is also a need to purify the minds of this world now. We must do it now and create the 'yuan' for Maitreya Buddha to come. The sutra states that those who received Maitreya's teachings were those who have learnt and practised in Shakyamuni's era.The Sutra of Maitreya's Attaining Buddhahood
If we all practise the dharma right now, we may become of Maitreya's enlightened disciples in the future. We may even be one of his Great Disciples.
...Then, Maitreya Buddha praised Shakyamuni Buddha by saying, "Excellent! Excellent! He was able to teach billions of evil sentient beings how to cultivate the roots of meritorious Karma, so that sentient beings are able to be born in My Pure Land." Maitreya Buddha then expresses respect for Shakyamuni Buddha by chanting his name three times, and by praising him: "The great spiritual teacher Shakyamuni Buddha! He was burdened heavily by enduring insults. He was brave and taught sentient beings mindfully and diligently. He was able to teach, and help to make more mature the undeveloped, evil sentient beings in the evil world of the five impurities and constant suffering, so they might cultivate good deeds and diminish their evil deeds through many Kalpas times. Because of this, those beings are able to see Maitreya today. Burdened with the responsibility of teaching sentient beings, Shakyamuni BUddha suffered enormously. He enabled sentient beings to enter the temple of the unconditioned, permanent bliss of no-egotism. From his teaching, your disciples can be born in My Pure Land. Today, I have already expounded on the Four Noble Truths and the thirty-seven conditions by which to beautify and purify the city of Nirvana. I have also expounded on the Twelve Causes and Conditions. All sentient beeings can now perceive the unconditioned Dharma and enter into the profound truth of emptiness."... (many more paragraphs praising Shakyamuni Buddha)
If we can purify our mind, one day pure land will be right before our eyes. Because "when mind is pure, land is pure". -
Ok, here is a hypothetical question, If Singapore was attacked by another country, would you pick up arms and defend Singapore?
What will you do? -
it's important to understand that it is not that Buddhists are not "allowed" to kill. It is that killing is recognized as an action which is harmful to both the killer and the victim. Buddhists are reminded of this and encouraged to remain mindful of their actions and the consequences of those actions.
There is no rule that says, "Thall shalt not kill." There are just numerous reminders of the reasons why such an act is detrimental to the pursuit of contentment (for both killer and victim). It is up to the individual to decide in any given situation what they should do. One must weigh the expected consequences of all actions, and take the action which they deem to be most beneficial/skillful.
If I am driving an ambulance to go rescue someone who is sick or injured, and along the way I accidentally hit and kill another person - well, I must accept that this is a result of my actions. I am responsible for this. However, it was not my volition to do so. My intent was to hurry to help someone in need. I must honestly evaluate whether or not I was as mindful and careful as I could have been. Perhaps I was driving needlessly recklessly. I must accept the responsibility of doing so. Perhaps I was driving as carefully as I could, and still was not able to prevent such an accident.
One's volition or intent is paramount. So, if "some crazy guy is attacking my kids or something", it is not my intent that someone should be harmed. The attacker has put certain events into motion that are harmful. It was his intent to harm. My intent was just to go to the movies with my kids (or whatever we were doing at the time).
Does this mean that I should carry around a handgun just in case, then shoot the attacker immediately because "he started it?" Probably not. By carrying that handgun, I have decided on violence. I carry the intent to harm around in a holster. However, can I defend my children? Of course. It would be irresponsible, uncompassionate, and possibly cowardly not to.
What is more important so far as Buddhism is concerned (and the law for that matter) is my intent. Is my intent to protect my children, or is my intent to harm the attacker? Am I reacting with rage and revenge, or in compassionate defense? These are the more important questions.
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UnquoteOriginally posted by neutral_onliner:it's important to understand that it is not that Buddhists are not "allowed" to kill. It is that killing is recognized as an action which is harmful to both the killer and the victim. Buddhists are reminded of this and encouraged to remain mindful of their actions and the consequences of those actions.
There is no rule that says, "Thall shalt not kill." There are just numerous reminders of the reasons why such an act is detrimental to the pursuit of contentment (for both killer and victim). It is up to the individual to decide in any given situation what they should do. One must weigh the expected consequences of all actions, and take the action which they deem to be most beneficial/skillful.
If I am driving an ambulance to go rescue someone who is sick or injured, and along the way I accidentally hit and kill another person - well, I must accept that this is a result of my actions. I am responsible for this. However, it was not my volition to do so. My intent was to hurry to help someone in need. I must honestly evaluate whether or not I was as mindful and careful as I could have been. Perhaps I was driving needlessly recklessly. I must accept the responsibility of doing so. Perhaps I was driving as carefully as I could, and still was not able to prevent such an accident.
One's volition or intent is paramount. So, if "some crazy guy is attacking my kids or something", it is not my intent that someone should be harmed. The attacker has put certain events into motion that are harmful. It was his intent to harm. My intent was just to go to the movies with my kids (or whatever we were doing at the time).
Does this mean that I should carry around a handgun just in case, then shoot the attacker immediately because "he started it?" Probably not. By carrying that handgun, I have decided on violence. I carry the intent to harm around in a holster. However, can I defend my children? Of course. It would be irresponsible, uncompassionate, and possibly cowardly not to.
What is more important so far as Buddhism is concerned (and the law for that matter) is my intent. Is my intent to protect my children, or is my intent to harm the attacker? Am I reacting with rage and revenge, or in compassionate defense? These are the more important questions.
You must understand about Kamma. Those who lives by the sword, dies by the sword. You will not achieve liberation or salvation by killing another being cos your mind will be disturbed and you will not get peace of mind as killing is a bad deed. Ask yourself how many times did you feel guilty conscience by doing a bad deed?
It is said that when you die, all the events in your life will be bring before you, the good and the bad deeds that you have done.
You can use self defence to protect yourself and your family from another human, but you can do that by not killing him, merely dislodge his weapon like knife and subdue him.
if you happen to kill someone with no intention, there is no kamma as the intention is not there. For instance, if you reverses your car and did not realise a person was there and you kill that person, the kamma you get is maybe disqualify from driving through negligance and maybe a fine, but you did not purposely set out to kill the person, you killed him cos you did not realise he was there. If you saw him and still reverses your car, that is a different story.