The Ultimate Truth (Emptiness)
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I am shock that you can say this... maybe I got all you you mixed up.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Yea, we must walk it out, but yet we cannot say that we accomplished or attained 'Emptiness' - for in Heart Sutra it says,
"There is No Wisdom, and There is No Attainment Whatsoever."
"Because There is Nothing to Be Attained,
The Bodhisattva Relying On Prajna Paramita Has
No Obstruction in His Mind."
Read the other thread : Buddhism cannot be discussed openly? and tell me that Buddhists posting at that thread (I thought including you) are not insisting that a certain "way" and certain interpretations are best?
I kept telling you in that thread to give up on certain Buddhists dogma arguing that Buddha in his parable of the raft also encouraged it.
But the post there kept insisting on the dogmas that I had to give up on that posts.
Now you tell us: "There is No Wisdom, and There is No Attainment Whatsoever." "Because There is Nothing to Be Attained,
The Bodhisattva Relying On Prajna Paramita Has
No Obstruction in His Mind."
I must tell you to please walk the talk. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
Dont quite get you.. pls elaborate
I am shock that you can say this... maybe I got all you you mixed up.
Read the other thread : Buddhism cannot be discussed openly? and tell me that Buddhists posting at that thread (I thought including you) are not insisting that a certain "way" and certain interpretations are best?I kept telling you in that thread to give up on certain Buddhists dogma arguing that Buddha in his parable of the raft also encouraged it.
Give up on certain Buddhist dogma? I told you there is no dogmas in Buddhism in the previous thread.
And I dont get it - what has all this got to do with this thread? What's your point? I dont know what you're talking about.But the post there kept insisting on the dogmas that I had to give up on that posts.
It had never insisted on the dogmas - and you have never replied me yet on what I replied you. Wanna start another thread begin? (which is a little tiring - since it's just copying and pasting what i have already said)
I'm all ready - and my exams are over
Now you tell us: "There is No Wisdom, and There is No Attainment Whatsoever." "Because There is Nothing to Be Attained,
Exactly. 'Walk the talk'. But dont talk the walk - that's what I've been telling.
The Bodhisattva Relying On Prajna Paramita Has
No Obstruction in His Mind."
I must tell you to please walk the talk. -
Enlightenment is not at all supernatural.Originally posted by casino_king:Unfortunately I do not believe in supernatural enlightenment. What I do believe is that Buddha's teaching like Jesus' teaching is very helpful for everyday living.
Pls remember the points we have discussed previously and not repeated the same mistakes. -
Let's define supernatural and get it over with once and for all instead of thi playing with words ok? It is pointless to say one thing and mean another. So you tell me what you consider super natural.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Enlightenment is not at all supernatural.
Pls remember the points we have discussed previously and not repeated the same mistakes.
Buddhist claim that their are beings with what everyone else would called god characteristics and yet Buddhist does not recognise them as god - confusing everybody. It is like, everybody calls it a duck but Buddhists call it chicken. Not helpful.
Everybody on earth calls walking on water supernatural but Buddhists say, no it is not. Not helpful.
If you want to say walking on water is not supernatural, then you must come up with a new word. Otherwise you are just confusing yourself. -
All these have NOTHING to do with Enlightenment - so there is nothing for me to discuss here.Originally posted by casino_king:Let's define supernatural and get it over with once and for all instead of thi playing with words ok? It is pointless to say one thing and mean another. So you tell me what you consider super natural.
Buddhist claim that their are beings with what everyone else would called god characteristics and yet Buddhist does not recognise them as god - confusing everybody. It is like, everybody calls it a duck but Buddhists call it chicken. Not helpful.
Everybody on earth calls walking on water supernatural but Buddhists say, no it is not. Not helpful.
If you want to say walking on water is not supernatural, then you must come up with a new word. Otherwise you are just confusing yourself. -
I just want to relate what I experiance upon emptiness thru meditation.
Once I was in meditations on Emptiness. It was some years back. Was to investigate.
First was projecting a wooden table in the mind. Like a scientist using the mind to "look" at the material, structure, name & space it occupy. The structure, name & space boils down to nothing. Then "look" into the wood. Then "look" into the elements of wood. Then "look" further on. There is no permante structure, no permante wood or permante name. Then everything starts to flow or transform. Particle flows. I step back & watch (in the mind) everything starts to flow.
My experiance was, Everything, I mean everything including soul, body, material, earth & stars & whatever contained is just a flow. It's constantly flowing, changing from state to state at different speed & directions. Like atoms, flowing different speed & directions. Dust like particle. It's just constantly changing, but my state of mind is observed as stable, non-influencing, baseless & not Thinking when this happen.
This state of mind I can't hold it for too long. And could not understand fully at first when I come out of meditations. It was by later days when meditate upon own body, this "Flowing" Effect comes back. There is not permante body, no body as if all other equipment must functions together to form.
In-accidently I have use the same meditation methods to "look" at Karma. Comes back to be flowing again, but more like windy blowing at different directions, speeds, .... We experiances it but not able grap anything.
To my bad practices, still not been able to eradicate my own state of mind to recognise total mind stability.
In my own words I would say, meaning of emptiness in buddhist terms is much like transforming of energy from one state to another. Which is empty of no permante self characteristic. In no double we do experiance something but of non-lasting effect, like a thin shell. -
I had done meditation and had some weird experiences too. If I were you I wouldn't make too much out of it.Originally posted by surfer188:I just want to relate what I experiance upon emptiness thru meditation.
Once I was in meditations on Emptiness. It was some years back. Was to investigate.
First was projecting a wooden table in the mind. Like a scientist using the mind to "look" at the material, structure, name & space it occupy. The structure, name & space boils down to nothing. Then "look" into the wood. Then "look" into the elements of wood. Then "look" further on. There is no permante structure, no permante wood or permante name. Then everything starts to flow or transform. Particle flows. I step back & watch (in the mind) everything starts to flow.
My experiance was, Everything, I mean everything including soul, body, material, earth & stars & whatever contained is just a flow. It's constantly flowing, changing from state to state at different speed & directions. Like atoms, flowing different speed & directions. Dust like particle. It's just constantly changing, but my state of mind is observed as stable, non-influencing, baseless & not Thinking when this happen.
This state of mind I can't hold it for too long. And could not understand fully at first when I come out of meditations. It was by later days when meditate upon own body, this "Flowing" Effect comes back. There is not permante body, no body as if all other equipment must functions together to form.
In-accidently I have use the same meditation methods to "look" at Karma. Comes back to be flowing again, but more like windy blowing at different directions, speeds, .... We experiances it but not able grap anything.
To my bad practices, still not been able to eradicate my own state of mind to recognise total mind stability.
In my own words I would say, meaning of emptiness in buddhist terms is much like transforming of energy from one state to another. Which is empty of no permante self characteristic. In no double we do experiance something but of non-lasting effect, like a thin shell. -
one is aware with everyone, everything; everyone and everything is doing..... but one does nothing by just simply naturally be in the pure present moment with everyone and everything - when non-emptiness is seen, emptiness is also seen.....
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We can infer that mental experience requires sensory experience, or respectively memory of sensory experience. Sensory experience in turn requires the body. If we carried through a thought experiment and examined whether each of the skandhas is able to exist without the other four, we would find that this is not possible. The latter four aggregates all depend on the body. Without the brain and the nervous system there is no consciousness, no sensation, no perception, and no mental formations. On the other hand, we cannot imagine the body to function without the mind. The body and the mind depend on each other, the five skandhas depend on each other. We must conclude that none of the skandhas is fundamental. Body, sensations, perceptions, mental formations, and consciousness are interrelated. Experiences emerge from the interaction of all five skandhas. Just as objects, experiences are conditioned by the interplay of multiple phenomena. Experience has no inherent existence either.
Our brain is advanced enough to reflect on its experiences. By means of self-reference we can direct mental activity onto itself. For example, we can think about thought. From this arises a division between subject, percept, and object. The percept is the mental impression, the subject is the owner of it, the thinker, and the object is that which causes the mental impression. This threefold division seems so natural to us that it is reflected in the grammar of most human languages. We perceive the separation of subject, percept, and object as real, because mind attributes an owner to experience and thought. This owner is the "self", the subject, the centre of consciousness, the supposed psychological entity. Surprisingly, this entity remains completely undetectable. Body, feeling, perception, and mental formations are not the self. Consciousness is not the self either, otherwise it would follow that the self temporarily ceases to exist during unconscious states, for example during deep sleep.
We might ask how "self" can be independent of a surrounding world. Is it possible for the self to exist in a mental vacuum, a world devoid of sense impressions, thought, and mental images? Would the self not literally run out of fuel if it lacked thoughts and contents to identify itself with or to set itself apart from? It seems there is no basis an independent entity. It seems more that the self is an emergent phenomenon arising from the application of complex interpretative schemes to perception. In particular, it arises from the conceptual division between subject, object, and percept. Through introspection it is possible to realise that the "self" is not fundamental. It is created by the mind through identification and discernment. The "self" is itself a mental formation - a product of mind. It is therefore empty of inherent existence.
Self - No Self -
Originally posted by neutral_onliner:
When you die, there is no self because all that constitute "self" ceases to become an entity and become separate parts.
We can infer that mental experience requires sensory experience, or respectively memory of sensory experience. Sensory experience in turn requires the body. If we carried through a thought experiment and examined whether each of the skandhas is able to exist without the other four, we would find that this is not possible. The latter four aggregates all depend on the body. [b]Without the brain and the nervous system there is no consciousness, no sensation, no perception, and no mental formations. On the other hand, we cannot imagine the body to function without the mind. The body and the mind depend on each other, the five skandhas depend on each other. We must conclude that none of the skandhas is fundamental. Body, sensations, perceptions, mental formations, and consciousness are interrelated. Experiences emerge from the interaction of all five skandhas. Just as objects, experiences are conditioned by the interplay of multiple phenomena. Experience has no inherent existence either.
Our brain is advanced enough to reflect on its experiences. By means of self-reference we can direct mental activity onto itself. For example, we can think about thought. From this arises a division between subject, percept, and object. The percept is the mental impression, the subject is the owner of it, the thinker, and the object is that which causes the mental impression. This threefold division seems so natural to us that it is reflected in the grammar of most human languages. We perceive the separation of subject, percept, and object as real, because mind attributes an owner to experience and thought. This owner is the "self", the subject, the centre of consciousness, the supposed psychological entity. Surprisingly, this entity remains completely undetectable. Body, feeling, perception, and mental formations are not the self. Consciousness is not the self either, otherwise it would follow that the self temporarily ceases to exist during unconscious states, for example during deep sleep.
We might ask how "self" can be independent of a surrounding world. Is it possible for the self to exist in a mental vacuum, a world devoid of sense impressions, thought, and mental images? Would the self not literally run out of fuel if it lacked thoughts and contents to identify itself with or to set itself apart from? It seems there is no basis an independent entity. It seems more that the self is an emergent phenomenon arising from the application of complex interpretative schemes to perception. In particular, it arises from the conceptual division between subject, object, and percept. Through introspection it is possible to realise that the "self" is not fundamental. It is created by the mind through identification and discernment. The "self" is itself a mental formation - a product of mind. It is therefore empty of inherent existence.
Self - No Self [/b]
Just like you plant a bomb in a car and the car explodes into different parts and is no longer a car.
Why is that so difficult for you to understand? Why do you not accept that? -
No...no...no..Whether u die or not there is NOT SELF...pls read carefullyOriginally posted by casino_king:When you die, there is no self because all that constitute "self" ceases to become an entity and become separate parts.
Just like you plant a bomb in a car and the car explodes into different parts and is no longer a car.
Why is that so difficult for you to understand? Why do you not accept that?
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In Buddhism there wasnt a self to begin with. Self is an illusion.
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well...i don think casino understand tat (just stay tune for his next commentOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:In Buddhism there wasnt a self to begin with. Self is an illusion. ) -
Initiat experiances of deep meditation do have weird experiances. This is very normal. You should have go on further & not just be disturbed by it.Originally posted by casino_king:I had done meditation and had some weird experiences too. If I were you I wouldn't make too much out of it.
In my own words (May not be fully correct) of this weird experiances during initiat deep meditations :
Our brain is very used to informations from our physical senses. When we silence down or stop this internal commications, brain or natural process trys to "Jump Starts" the body & "dial" to central control for advise (Make Noise). or brain is trying to "Self-explain" this silence experiance. (Self-indulge) or trying to make sense of what's happening. Trying to figure out what is this.
A bad example in medical terms is when a person is brain dead, the organs still functions for some durations. But some how, the organ will "Realise" the brain is dead & stop functioning. But this organ stopping does not happen when we sleep.
I always make jokes that when brain's activity receive no-dial-tone it makes hell of noise on it's end.
Anyway, is brain contolling that non-self or non-self is trying to tell a story out of nothing? Up to you to decide.
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If Buddha is not an entity; what then are you people "Domo" to and many who calls themselves Buddhist worship?Originally posted by neutral_onliner:No...no...no..Whether u die or not there is NOT SELF...pls read carefully -
I did not give up because I was "disturbed." I took as if you meditate, you can go into "dream states" even though you are awake.Originally posted by surfer188:Initiat experiances of deep meditation do have weird experiances. This is very normal. You should have go on further & not just be disturbed by it.
In my own words (May not be fully correct) of this weird experiances during initiat deep meditations : Our brain is very used to informations from our physical senses. When we silence down or stop this internal commications, brain or natural process trys to "Jump Starts" the body & "dial" to central control for advise (Make Noise). or brain is trying to "Self-explain" this silence experiance. (Self-indulge) or trying to make sense of what's happening. Trying to figure out what is this.
A bad example in medical terms is when a person is brain dead, the organs still functions for some durations. But some how, the organ will "Realise" the brain is dead & stop functioning. But this organ stopping does not happen when we sleep.
I always make jokes that when brain's activity receive no-dial-tone it makes hell of noise on it's end.
Anyway, is brain contolling that non-self or non-self is trying to tell a story out of nothing? Up to you to decide.
Maybe you are right, I should have investigated further and not assume that it is "dream state" and nothing more.
Until then, without any evidence, I take it as "dream states" while awake. -
Enlightenment
“Enlightenment is to turn around and look at our own mistake.” ---by Grand Enlightened Masters
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Nothing supernatural in that statement, I remind you.Originally posted by sinweiy:“Enlightenment is to turn around and look at our own mistake.” ---by Grand Enlightened Masters
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The Complete Idiot's Guide to Understanding BuddhismOriginally posted by casino_king:If Buddha is not an entity; what then are you people "Domo" to and many who calls themselves Buddhist worship?
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Originally posted by neutral_onliner:
I just cut and paste this from the EH Christian forums; a post I made a couple of minutes ago.
The Complete [b]Idiot's Guide to Understanding Buddhism[/b]
That initial belief, is that the be all and end all? That is only an introduction to the possibilities. Most people stop there.
To talk in terms where Christians can understand, Abraham was a Hindu or lived among Hindus. He was able to come out of Hinduism. He did not just stop there.
The Jews developed a religion for everyone to follw when in fact Abraham came out of religion.
Jesus came along and ask the Jews to come out of their religion and his followers created a new religion for seekers to follow.
Remember that it was Buddha himself who told you people to move on and not remain stuck on Buddhist dogma. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
i really dun understand u.when did i even stuck on buddhist dogma?
I just cut and paste this from the EH Christian forums; a post I made a couple of minutes ago.
[b]That initial belief, is that the be all and end all? That is only an introduction to the possibilities. Most people stop there.
To talk in terms where Christians can understand, Abraham was a Hindu or lived among Hindus. He was able to come out of Hinduism. He did not just stop there.
The Jews developed a religion for everyone to follw when in fact Abraham came out of religion.
Jesus came along and ask the Jews to come out of their religion and his followers created a new religion for seekers to follow.
Remember that it was Buddha himself who told you people to move on and not remain stuck on Buddhist dogma.[/b]
Btw how many do u wan us to correct u tat there is no buddhist dogma? -
Of course you cannot see the illusions in your own mind.......Originally posted by neutral_onliner:i really dun understand u.when did i even stuck on buddhist dogma?
Btw how many do u wan us to correct u tat there is no buddhist dogma? -
wat illusion?
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u huh...learn abit here learn abit there(wf no guidance )then form them thru ur not so correct understanding and now become 'rojok' knowledgeOriginally posted by neutral_onliner:wat illusion? -
ok..mr CASINO since i'm 'free' till late afternoon why not i help u along in understanding buddhism.Well when learning everything we have to start from basic .why don we start from the basic first?