The Ultimate Truth (Emptiness)
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OK I tell you what I understand and you tell me where I am wrong...Originally posted by neutral_onliner:ok..mr CASINO since i'm 'free' till late afternoon why not i help u along in understanding buddhism.Well when learning everything we have to start from basic .why don we start from the basic ?
Buddha noticed that there was suffering in this world and wanted to understand "why."
He sat under the tree seemingly to meditate and became "enlightened."
So he taught the Four Noble truths and the Eight-fold Path.
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Through following his instructions, people can be relieved from suffering and also become enlightened like him.
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Then comes the tricky parts. The supernatural parts. -
no..no...wait slowly okOriginally posted by casino_king:OK I tell you what I understand and you tell me where I am wrong...
Buddha noticed that there was suffering in this world and wanted to understand "why."
He sat under the tree seemingly to meditate and became "enlightened."
So he taught the Four Noble truths and the Eight-fold Path.
=============================
Through following his instructions, people can be relieved from suffering and also become enlightened like him.
=============================
Then comes the tricky parts. The supernatural parts.
now let's talk abt the four Noble truths wat's the first truth? -
# The Reality of Suffering--dukkhaOriginally posted by neutral_onliner:no..no...wait slowly ok
now let's talk abt the four Noble truths wat's the first truth?
# The Cause of Suffering--samudaya
# The Cessation of Suffering--nirodha
# The Path to the Cessation of Suffering--magga -
ok first thing first.wat do u understand abt first one tat's the Reality of Suffering( Life means suffering)?Originally posted by casino_king:# The Reality of Suffering--dukkha
# The Cause of Suffering--samudaya
# The Cessation of Suffering--nirodha
# The Path to the Cessation of Suffering--magga -
The Reality of Suffering--dukkhaOriginally posted by neutral_onliner:ok first thing first.wat do u understand abt first one tat's the Reality of Suffering( Life means suffering)?
The Pali word dukkha, in ordinary usage means 'suffering', 'pain', 'sorrow' or 'misery'. But in the context of the First Noble Truth, dukkha also means 'imperfection', 'impermanence', 'emptiness', 'insubstantiality'. There are three kinds of suffering:
* Ordinary Suffering--dukkha-dukkha
* Suffering produced by Change--virapinama-dukkha
* Suffering as Conditioned States--samkara-dukkha
Ordinary Suffering--dukkha-dukkha
There are all kinds of suffering in life: birth, old age, sickness, death, association with unpleasant persons and conditions, separation from beloved ones and pleasant conditions, not getting what one desires, grief, lamentation, distress--all forms of physical and mental suffering.
Suffering produced by Change--virapinama-dukkha
Pleasant and happy feelings or conditions in life are not permanent. Sooner or later they change. When they change they may produce pain, suffering, unhappiness or dissappointment. This vicissitude is considered viparimana-dukkha.
Suffering as Conditioned States--samkara-dukkha
An 'individual', an 'I' or a 'self' is a combination of ever-changing mental and physical forces which can be divided into five groups or 'aggregates' pancakkhandha. Suffering as conditioned states is produced by attachment to these five aggregates:
* Matter--rupakkhandha
* Sensations--vedanakkhandha
* Perceptions--sannakkhandha
* Mental Formations--sankharakkhandha
* Consciousness--vinnanakkhandha -
can we pause for a while and let interested readers digest it? Anyway I have to go and will be back.
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Originally posted by casino_king:
can u explain how much u understand abt not getting what one desires
The Reality of Suffering--dukkha
Ordinary Suffering--dukkha-dukkha
There are all kinds of suffering in life: birth, old age, sickness, death, association with unpleasant persons and conditions, separation from beloved ones and pleasant conditions, not getting what one desires, grief, lamentation, distress--all forms of physical and mental suffering.
Suffering produced by Change--virapinama-dukkha
Pleasant and happy feelings or conditions in life are not permanent. Sooner or later they change. When they change they may produce pain, suffering, unhappiness or dissappointment. This vicissitude is considered viparimana-dukkha.
Pleasant and happy feelings or conditions in life are not permanent.
When they change they may produce pain, suffering, unhappiness or dissappointment
u can oso give mi some examples
thnks -
can we pause for a while and let interested readers digest it? Anyway I have to go and will be back. Thanks for your help.Originally posted by casino_king:can we pause for a while and let interested readers digest it? Anyway I have to go and will be back. -
sure no problemOriginally posted by casino_king:can we pause for a while and let interested readers digest it? Anyway I have to go and will be back. Thanks for your help. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
right, didn't said it was. the statement was directed to everyone including buddhists and myself. not everyone realised it.
Nothing supernatural in that statement, I remind you.
if we like, my master mentioned that bodhisattva can be seen as xian2 ren2/saint in chinese. and arahat as jun1 zhi3/gentleman. it's ancient india's way of terming, that's all.
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Originally posted by neutral_onliner:
Have a little time bfore I need to so again.
can u explain how much u understand abt [b]not getting what one desires
Pleasant and happy feelings or conditions in life are not permanent.
When they change they may produce pain, suffering, unhappiness or dissappointment
u can oso give mi some examples
thnks
[/b]
not getting what one desiresThere is a big difference between working towards what want desires and simply having the desire.
You might desire a big house and a big car. You look at the others who have it and you feel really miserable. On the other hand you might be working for a big house and a big car. You look at the others who have it and you are not miserable because you too are working towards it. You admire those who have it and you might even ask them for some advice.
Pleasant and happy feelings or conditions in life are not permanent. You go for lunch with colleagues and that makes you happy. Unfortunately lunch cannot go on forever.
When they change they may produce pain, suffering, unhappiness or dissappointmentSo you are happily working for your big house and car but you got retrenced.... -
Originally posted by casino_king:
hmm... let put it this way People who desire to own many things can never be fully satisfied too. Like children in a toy shop, they crave for all the attractive things they see around them. But like children too, they soon become dissatisfied with what they already have and desire for more. Sometimes, they can hardly eat or sleep until they get what they want. Yet when they succeeded in getting what they want, they may still find their happiness short-lived. Many will be too worried for the safety and condition of their new possessions to enjoy it. Then when the object they possess eventually breaks into pieces and has to be thrown away, they will suffer its loss even more.
Have a little time bfore I need to so again.
[b]not getting what one desiresThere is a big difference between working towards what want desires and simply having the desire.
You might desire a big house and a big car. You look at the others who have it and you feel really miserable. On the other hand you might be working for a big house and a big car. You look at the others who have it and you are not miserable because you too are working towards it. You admire those who have it and you might even ask them for some advice.
Pleasant and happy feelings or conditions in life are not permanent. You go for lunch with colleagues and that makes you happy. Unfortunately lunch cannot go on forever.
When they change they may produce pain, suffering, unhappiness or dissappointmentSo you are happily working for your big house and car but you got retrenced....[/b]
so u see When we have obtained something that we desire, we may want more and more of it and so greed arises.It like filling the " black hole" .It never enough.We thought that by having all these things will give everlasting happiness.It never happen.
take for another example A very poor, underprivileged person might think that it would be wonderful to have a car or a television set and, should he acquire them, would at first feel very happy and satisfied. Now, if such happiness were permanent, as long as he had the car and the TV set he would remain happy. But he does not; his happiness goes away. After a few months he wants another kind of car; if he has the money, he will buy a better television set. The old things, the same objects that once gave him much satisfaction, now cause dissatisfaction.
so u see what we really need is not that much however what we want is never enough.b]Pleasant and happy feelings or conditions in life are not permanent.[/b] You go for lunch with colleagues and that makes you happy. Unfortunately lunch cannot go on forever.
as u see buddha teaching emphasis much on impermanence.(yet pple r living in an illusion tat the world is permanent)Same as our mood which is constantly changing.One moment u are happy next moment sad next angry so on and so on.Not matter what u do u cannot stop the change. (No one can stay in a happy mood forever).Sometime we don even notices we have a switched of mood
When they change they may produce pain, suffering, unhappiness or dissappointmentSo you are happily working for your big house and car but you got retrenced....[/b]
As buddhism is based on observation and experiences why not u try to do some observation on yourself or on someone u know and see for yourself -
Yes Buddha also asked you to discard his teachings when better observations come along. You cannot hold on to some parts of Buddha's teaching but ignore some other parts. What are you afraid of?Originally posted by neutral_onliner:as u see buddha teaching emphasis much on impermanence.(yet pple r living in an illusion tat the world is permanent)Same as our mood which is constantly changing.One moment u are happy next moment sad next angry so on and so on.Not matter what u do u cannot stop the change. (No one can stay in a happy mood forever).Sometime we don even notices we have a switched of mood
As buddhism is based on observation and experiences why not u try to do some observation on yourself or on someone u know and see for yourself
We now understand motivations in terms of needs. You are motivated to do something because you have a need to fulfill. After your basic needs are met you try to fulfill your higher level needs.
Everybody knows that we all live "a few decades;" even if the world is permanent, we are not.
You are right only if you say "some" people treat the world as if it is permanent and live their lives as if they are going to live forever.
There is of course also biological needs. These are recurring needs and whether you are under the illusion that the world is permanent or not you need to eat sleep and have sex among other things.
You need to look at Buddhism in a more profound way and discard all those observations made thousand of years ago and replace them with modern observations.
You cannot on the one hand say that the world is an illusion and changing except Buddhist scriptures.
Understand my words: "I am not against Buddhism." I am trying to make you see your own illusions. -
I think you are just repeating everything that we have already discussed in the past.Originally posted by casino_king:Yes Buddha also asked you to discard his teachings when better observations come along. You cannot hold on to some parts of Buddha's teaching but ignore some other parts. What are you afraid of?
There has never been any 'modern observations' that overrides what the Buddha observed. That is why I said Buddhism is COMPLETELY compatible with science - nothing that Buddha said was disproved of, and everything that he can be observed, can be observed TODAY - regardless of what day it is, whether it is modern times or ancient times.. the dharma seals never fail to reveal itself to us. -
How then would you put what the post at 05:58 PM said in a way that is compatible with Buddhism and science?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I think you are just repeating everything that we have already discussed in the past.
There has never been any 'modern observations' that overrides what the Buddha observed. That is why I said Buddhism is COMPLETELY compatible with science - nothing that Buddha said was disproved of, and everything that he can be observed, can be observed TODAY - regardless of what day it is, whether it is modern times or ancient times.. the dharma seals never fail to reveal itself to us. -
move 'slowly' casino don jump to the conclusion.U are making all these statments becos of ur misconception.Thus i'm trying to 'walk' step by step and correct ur misconceptions.Originally posted by casino_king:How then would you put what the post at 05:58 PM said in a way that is compatible with Buddhism and science?
Regarding impermanence, what Buddha taught was that EVERTHING IS CONTANTLY CHANGING.Now u see this is the true REALITY of natural.Whether it is in the past or future it is alway as it is.In fact u ,mi and everyone r constantly changing.That's why we will grow old
ok let take a look at these:
"According to Buddhism, all component or conditioned things are impermanent and in a constant state of flux.
According to science:
Everything in the Universe, be it physical (from the smallest cells of our bodies to the biggest stars) or mental (such as the thoughts running through our minds), constantly undergo change, never staying the same for even just two consecutive split seconds. As everything is a result or effect of changing causes and conditions, everything changes constantly.
The smallest component of the most "solid" thing is only a ball of fluxing energy
So u see these observation is always true be it in the past or modern time.Buddhist philosophy is evolutionary and thus agrees with the scientists rather than the theologians. Buddha taught that all things are impermanent
That's why An Eternal Now said thatThere has never been any 'modern observations' that overrides what the Buddha observed. That is why I said Buddhism is COMPLETELY compatible with science - nothing that Buddha said was disproved of, and everything that he can be observed, can be observed TODAY - regardless of what day it is, whether it is modern times or ancient times.. the dharma seals never fail to reveal itself to us.
And yes...the illusion we mentioned..well is not like what u think.I don blame u.It abit "chim" we will come to tat later. -
Hi An Eternal Now,Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I think you are just repeating everything that we have already discussed in the past.
There has never been any 'modern observations' that overrides what the Buddha observed. That is why I said Buddhism is COMPLETELY compatible with science - nothing that Buddha said was disproved of, and everything that he can be observed, can be observed TODAY - regardless of what day it is, whether it is modern times or ancient times.. the dharma seals never fail to reveal itself to us.
i think the reason why he is making such remark is becos he couldn't 'grasp' the correct understanding of buddha's teaching.Well everyone has different understanding capability.Some r fast learner some r slow.Buddhism is not suitable for everyone as understanding buddhism require wisdom.I think we need some patient here(one of the wonderful teaching of buddhism).
i mean...who can blame him,buddhism is so profound -
>neutral_onliner: I am not talking about the part that everything is constantly changing. You don't need to be Einstein to know that everything is constantly changing. I was refering to those parts where you interpreted desire. For example you said: "Like children in a toy shop, they crave for all the attractive things they see around them. But like children too, they soon become dissatisfied with what they already have and desire for more."
I am telling you that knowledge has moved on and human needs and motivations are now understood in terms of Hierarchy of Needs. It is no longer understood in terms of "like children." -
Just to share, my understanding of needs are basic elements to keep your life going, and is easily fulfilled. A higher form of needs are considered as desire, which is never ending. Example, you think you need a 1.6 Altis to take you from A to B and back. Once you have it, and you may think that you need a 2.0L Picnic cos the space is bigger and can accomodate more of your shopping. Then next, you may think you need a Beemer for safety reason. In reality, you only need an EZlink card, while the remaining items are purely desire.Originally posted by casino_king:>neutral_onliner: I am not talking about the part that everything is constantly changing. You don't need to be Einstein to know that everything is constantly changing. I was refering to those parts where you interpreted desire. For example you said: "Like children in a toy shop, they crave for all the attractive things they see around them. But like children too, they soon become dissatisfied with what they already have and desire for more."
I am telling you that knowledge has moved on and human needs and motivations are now understood in terms of Hierarchy of Needs. It is no longer understood in terms of "like children."
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Many things well said, words are understood slightly off the target. Was it knowledge or wisdom? Don't just boil on words, scriptures & method if they mean illogical to you. Walk away for a while. Come back for the honey when you need. Sometimes understanding comes a long time.Originally posted by casino_king:>I am telling you that knowledge has moved on and human needs and motivations are now understood in terms of Hierarchy of Needs. It is no longer understood in terms of "like children."
Like a bullet, miss 1mm will be light years away. I would rather wait then miss.
I will contribute what I think about other religion on this topic of emptyness. Currently in Israel.
This Friday I am going to Jerusalem to walk Jesus path. 14 points to visit. Come back tell you what a Buddhist feels for walking Jesus's path. -
It must be exhilirating.
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The concept of the heirarchy of needs has actually evolved but what I am trying to say is that, we cannot look things in a simplistic manner. If we are looking for the truth, then we have to look at reality and not simplify it to suit our needs.Originally posted by coolbluewater:Just to share, my understanding of needs are basic elements to keep your life going, and is easily fulfilled. A higher form of needs are considered as desire, which is never ending. Example, you think you need a 1.6 Altis to take you from A to B and back. Once you have it, and you may think that you need a 2.0L Picnic cos the space is bigger and can accomodate more of your shopping. Then next, you may think you need a Beemer for safety reason. In reality, you only need an EZlink card, while the remaining items are purely desire.
You don't need an EZlink card do you? A normal person can walk. So we have to look at human motivations. The cause of human motivations when we talk about needs.
After we have looked at it; undertsand it; then we look at Buddha's teachings and see how to apply it. If it doesn't fit, then we see if we have understood the teaching in error.
I do not think that you can become enlightened if you interpret Buddha's teaching with "technology" from his time. Even if he could see what we now know, he had to teach those people of his time and he had to use their "technology." -
Well we shall wait for your report.Originally posted by surfer188:Many things well said, words are understood slightly off the target. Was it knowledge or wisdom? Don't just boil on words, scriptures & method if they mean illogical to you. Walk away for a while. Come back for the honey when you need. Sometimes understanding comes a long time.
Like a bullet, miss 1mm will be light years away. I would rather wait then miss.
I will contribute what I think about other religion on this topic of emptyness. Currently in Israel.
This Friday I am going to Jerusalem to walk Jesus path. 14 points to visit. Come back tell you what a Buddhist feels for walking Jesus's path.
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Buddhism, is all about everyday living, hence I've mentioned modern technologies such as cars, ezlink etc. However, you can't deny that it's more relevant today cause every suffering we encounter rooted from our desire. Bottomline is, do we justify those desire as a form of need? If so, how much "needs" will we satisfy?Originally posted by casino_king:The concept of the heirarchy of needs has actually evolved but what I am trying to say is that, we cannot look things in a simplistic manner. If we are looking for the truth, then we have to look at reality and not simplify it to suit our needs.
You don't need an EZlink card do you? A normal person can walk. So we have to look at human motivations. The cause of human motivations when we talk about needs.
After we have looked at it; undertsand it; then we look at Buddha's teachings and see how to apply it. If it doesn't fit, then we see if we have understood the teaching in error.
I do not think that you can become enlightened if you interpret Buddha's teaching with "technology" from his time. Even if he could see what we now know, he had to teach those people of his time and he had to use their "technology."
FYI, if you've attended enough Dharma Talks, you'll notice many venerables will actually quote modern technologies in their dharma preaching, so that people like us will understand. Are you saying that they will not gain enlightenment also? Of course, myself will not gain enlightenment so soon, I'm still learning. Maybe you'll attain enlightenment before me, perhaps this life?