The Ultimate Truth (Emptiness)
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"The Dharma is spoken to break people's attachments. If people had no attachments, they wouldn't need the Dharma. But people have attachments because their consciousnesses take over, and so they give rise to distinctions and attachments. If you let your wisdom be in charge, you will have no attachments. . . ." (VBS #179 3rd door)
http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/BuddhistDict/BDD.html
"There are no fixed, static dharmas. Because it is not fixed, the Dharma is alive. Dharma which is alive is separate from all attachments. It is said, 'One bestows the teaching for the sake of the individual and prescribes the medicine according to the illness.' In the same way the Dharma is spoken as an antidote to an individual's specific problems." (DFS I 7-
II. . In this sense Dharma refers to the reality which is realized through the application of Dharma as teaching. It is the world of total enlightenment. See Dharma-realm. "
if one still have vexation and afflictions at time, u can't say u can really "discard" the dharma as yet. Dharma can also be like a ladder where u climb one step higher, u let go the lower step per se.
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Let'snot jump to conclusions and talk about who will get enlightenment first... in not seeking achievements we achieve?Originally posted by coolbluewater:Buddhism, is all about everyday living, hence I've mentioned modern technologies such as cars, ezlink etc. However, you can't deny that it's more relevant today cause every suffering we encounter rooted from our desire. Bottomline is, do we justify those desire as a form of need? If so, how much "needs" will we satisfy?
FYI, if you've attended enough Dharma Talks, you'll notice many venerables will actually quote modern technologies in their dharma preaching, so that people like us will understand. Are you saying that they will not gain enlightenment also? Of course, myself will not gain enlightenment so soon, I'm still learning. Maybe you'll attain enlightenment before me, perhaps this life?
Sure at a Dharma talk, the Ven will talk at the level of the audience. How will he know what kind of education the audience has?
This is a forum, it is interactive. There is no need to talk baby talk.
Certainly Buddha is not suggesting that people give up all their needs and live on bare necessities? Otherwise, we all go back and live in the forests.
Surely Buddha is not suggesting that science stop all their scientific discoveries. No we do not need anything else, to want to desire is suffering so stop discovering, so stop experimenting?
So what is it? Have needs and wants... you can have needs and wants, but... but what? What does Buddha says about that? But what?
Like your EZlink card example.... why use easy link card? Why not walk? and even further, why walk? why not just stay at home? Why stay at home, why not just live in the forest?
You see if you push to the end, you get why stay alive? Why not just get it over with? To be alive is to have needs and wants. Have needs and wants but.... but what? What does Buddha say? -
I would normally continue to say... at the time when Buddha walked on earth, it was a different earth. The Dharma he taught then was for those people. Since he said to discard, we then discard! Now I don't say it anymore because An Eternal Now will start screaming... you don't understand, you don't understand.
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Actually, i feel that it's good to keep the discussions rolling on. Afterall, I believe alot of the readers have learnt alot from your discussion with Eternal and Neutral, and have no doubt that you have a very profound knowledge of buddhism. In fact, if we have more like you and the seniors in this forum, we will be able to spread buddhsim further, and have lesser buddhist youth converting to other religions. Do not be afraid of anybody criticising you because they do not agree with your view, just voice out and I'm sure you'll get something positive out of your discussion.Originally posted by casino_king:I would normally continue to say... at the time when Buddha walked on earth, it was a different earth. The Dharma he taught then was for those people. Since he said to discard, we then discard! Now I don't say it anymore because An Eternal Now will start screaming... you don't understand, you don't understand. -
"contentment is a way to a LastinG happiness. "
Main Entry: content
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Function: transitive verb
1 : to appease the desires of
2 : to limit (oneself) in requirements, desires, or actions -
Thanks for your encouragement. I am not afraid of people criticising me or I would have given up a long long time ago.Originally posted by coolbluewater:Actually, i feel that it's good to keep the discussions rolling on. Afterall, I believe alot of the readers have learnt alot from your discussion with Eternal and Neutral, and have no doubt that you have a very profound knowledge of buddhism. In fact, if we have more like you and the seniors in this forum, we will be able to spread buddhsim further, and have lesser buddhist youth converting to other religions. Do not be afraid of anybody criticising you because they do not agree with your view, just voice out and I'm sure you'll get something positive out of your discussion.
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You cannot just say that and stop there. Everybody is contented and stop going to school to improve himself? Government shut down schools all close, hospitals close because even if you are sick, just be contented?Originally posted by sinweiy:"contentment is a way to a LastinG happiness. "
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Nobody in this world will buy this kind of nonsense, you get it? -
Aiya i think u misunderstood my example liao...Ok what is trying to say here is tat we human alway think tat by 'fulfilling' our desire we will find lasting satifaction and happiness.Yet after 'fulfilling' one another desire arise.When this happen we'suffer' and again try to 'fulfill' it.It like adding oil to fire or drinking salt water to stop our thirst.Instead of reducing it , we r increasing it !Originally posted by neutral_onliner:deleted
Ok i will use singaporeans as an example.we singaporeans r quite caught up in the materialistic life.When we have 1C we want 2C then 3C,4C and 5C.Thinking tat by having all possessions all our problem will be solved.And yet when we have them we'r still not satified.Our problems r still there in fact getting bigger.
Well just ask these pple when it the last time they spend on admiring the environment(our beautiful city).when it the last time they have a nice chat or spend some quality time wf their loved ones.Everything is impermance sooner or later they will leave us.The problem is tat we r so caught up in our attachment we tend make all these the CENTER of attention we are completely unaware of other thing.We WANT it we CLING to it we CRAVE it ,making our minds restless: ignorance, attachment, anger, pride, deluded doubt and distorted views.We miss the big picture of our life our true happiness.
Now, to overcome your ego you don't have to give up all your possessions.It all right to have them eg money , 5C, etc,etc blah blah blah.Keep your possessions; they're not making your life difficult. What Buddha want us to know is tat we suffer becos because we are clinging to your possessions with attachment -- ego and attachment are making your mind polluted, unclear, ignorant and agitated and preventing the light of wisdom from growing.Which oso mean to say if u think tat by having all these possessions will give u everlasting happiness u r in an delusions.(Our desires can NEVER be fulfilled)Sadly some pple kill themselves becos of such delusions.
The human mind instinctively seeks: happiness. East or West, there's no difference- everybody's doing the same thing.The truth is that pleasure and joy actually come from the mind, not from objective phenomena. (meaning it the mind not ur possessions)
So you see Buddha teaches us how to overcome our problems and difficulties by understanding and preventing their causes. Whereas we usually look to outward circumstances for the causes of our problems, Buddhism teaches us to look inwards. Buddha showed how our feelings of dissatisfaction arise from negative states of mind - primarily anger, attachment, and ignorance - and offered methods to eliminate these by developing generosity, compassion, wisdom and other positive states of mind.
Buddhism teaches people that the real source of happiness is inner peace. If our mind is peaceful, we shall be happy all the time, regardless of external conditions, but if it is disturbed or troubled in any way, we shall never be happy, no matter how good our external conditions may be. External conditions can only make us happy if our mind is peaceful. We can understand this through our own experience. For instance, even if we are in the most beautiful surroundings and have everything we need, the moment we get angry any happiness we may have disappears. This is because anger has destroyed our inner peace.
We can see from this that if we want true, lasting happiness we need to develop and maintain a special experience of inner peace. The only way we can do this is by training our mind through spiritual practice - gradually reducing and eliminating our negative, disturbed states of mind and replacing them with positive, peaceful states -
OK you edited it and now you say "to limit (oneself)" That is good. Then the question arise... how will we achieve our best potential? If everyone limits themselves then will the scientists say, this is too difficult, forget it. Will the world then stop progressing?Originally posted by sinweiy:2 : to limit (oneself) in requirements, desires, or actions
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Many will then look at Buddhism and say... such a sad religion. -
u check the definition of 'content' first before u think content is to 'stop' everything.Originally posted by casino_king:You cannot just say that and stop there. Everybody is contented and stop going to school to improve himself? Government shut down schools all close, hospitals close because even if you are sick, just be contented?
Nobody in this world will buy this kind of nonsense, you get it?
Contentment exceed all wishes:
Here's a powerful simile, thus i heard.
Five children were playing the wishing game. "If you are granted a
wish, what will you want?"
In this game, the first child said, "If I have a wish, I'll wish for
an ice-cream." Because it quite a sunny, hot day.
The second child said, "I'll wish for an ice-cream factory." Because,
if there's an ice-cream factory, you can have all the ice cream you
one when you want it.
The third child did even better, he said, "If I have a wish, I'll
wish for a billion dollars." Because with a billion dollars, you can
buy all type of factories.
The fourth child is smarter, he said, "If I have a wish, I'll wish
for 3 wishes. In my first wish, I can wish for an ice-cream factory,
and for my second wish, I can wish for a billion dollars, and for the
third wish, I can wish back my 3 wishes." Because with endless
wishes, you can get what you want again and again.
The fifth child bet all the four children. His wish was more profound
and brought more happiness. He said, "If I have a wish, I wish I
don't need any more wishes ever again, end of wishing." Because
without wishes, one let go, that is contentment and freedom, freedom
of desire. If one still needs wishes, one is not happy with the
present situation. Worldly beings would rather choose to be the forth
child, but the fifth child IS the idea of Buddha.
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Originally posted by neutral_onliner:
OK this is good. Happiness is found inward and not outward. But then happiness is not all there is to life is it?
Aiya i think u misunderstood my example liao...Ok what is trying to say here is tat [b]we human alway think tat by 'fulfilling' our desire we will find lasting satifaction and happiness.Yet after 'fulfilling' one another desire arise.When this happen we'suffer' and again try to 'fulfill' it.It like adding oil to fire or drinking salt water to stop our thirst.Instead of reducing it , we r increasing it !
Ok i will use singaporeans as an example.we singaporeans r quite caught up in the materialistic life.When we have 1C we want 2C then 3C,4C and 5C.Thinking tat by having all possessions all our problem will be solved.And yet when we have them we'r still not satified.Our problems r still there in fact getting bigger.
Well just ask these pple when it the last time they spend on admiring the environment(our beautiful city).when it the last time they have a nice chat or spend some quality time wf their loved ones.Everything is impermance sooner or later they will leave us.The problem is tat we r so caught up in our attachment we tend make all these the CENTER of attention we are completely unaware of other thing.We WANT it we CLING to it we CRAVE it ,making our minds restless: ignorance, attachment, anger, pride, deluded doubt and distorted views.We miss the big picture of our life our true happiness.
Now, to overcome your ego you don't have to give up all your possessions.It all right to have them eg money , 5C, etc,etc blah blah blah.Keep your possessions; they're not making your life difficult. What Buddha want us to know is tat we suffer becos because we are clinging to your possessions with attachment -- ego and attachment are making your mind polluted, unclear, ignorant and agitated and preventing the light of wisdom from growing.Which oso mean to say if u think tat by having all these possessions will give u everlasting happiness u r in an delusions.(Our desires can NEVER be fulfilled)Sadly some pple kill themselves becos of such delusions.
The human mind instinctively seeks: happiness. East or West, there's no difference- everybody's doing the same thing.The truth is that pleasure and joy actually come from the mind, not from objective phenomena. (meaning it the mind not ur possessions)
So you see Buddha teaches us how to overcome our problems and difficulties by understanding and preventing their causes. Whereas we usually look to outward circumstances for the causes of our problems, Buddhism teaches us to look inwards. Buddha showed how our feelings of dissatisfaction arise from negative states of mind - primarily anger, attachment, and ignorance - and offered methods to eliminate these by developing generosity, compassion, wisdom and other positive states of mind.
Buddhism teaches people that the real source of happiness is inner peace. If our mind is peaceful, we shall be happy all the time, regardless of external conditions, but if it is disturbed or troubled in any way, we shall never be happy, no matter how good our external conditions may be. External conditions can only make us happy if our mind is peaceful. We can understand this through our own experience. For instance, even if we are in the most beautiful surroundings and have everything we need, the moment we get angry any happiness we may have disappears. This is because anger has destroyed our inner peace.
We can see from this that if we want true, lasting happiness we need to develop and maintain a special experience of inner peace. The only way we can do this is by training our mind through spiritual practice - gradually reducing and eliminating our negative, disturbed states of mind and replacing them with positive, peaceful states
[/b] -
Originally posted by casino_king:
tot u say let the "raft" go...now u are unknowingly also clinging to your own "raft".
[b]OK you edited it and now you say "to limit (oneself)" That is good. Then the question arise... how will we achieve our best potential? If everyone limits themselves then will the scientists say, this is too difficult, forget it. Will the world then stop progressing?
Many will then look at Buddhism and say... such a sad religion.
]
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another story:
In my tradition, monks aren't allowed to accept, own, or handle any money, whatever its kind. We are so poor that we mess up government statistics. We live frugally on the unsolicited, simple gifts from our lay supporters. However, infrequently, we may be offered something special.
I had helped a Thai man with a personal problem. Out of gratitude, he said to me: "Sir, I would like to give you something for your personal use. What can I get you for the amount of five hundred baht?" It was usual to quote the amount when making such an offering, to avoid any misunderstanding. Since I wouldn't think what I wanted straight away and he was in a hurry, we agreed that I could tell him the next day when he returned.
Before this occured, I was a happy little monk. Now I started to contemplate what I wanted. I made a list. The list grew. Soon, five hundred baht wasn't enough. But it was so difficult to take anything off the list. Wants had appeared out of nowhere and solidified into absolute necessities. And the list kept growing. Now, five thousand baht wasn't sufficient!
Seeing what was happening, I threw my wish list away. The next day, I told my benefactor to give five hundred baht to the monastery building fund or to some other good cause. I didn't want it. What I wanted most of all was to regain the rare contenment I had had the day before. When I had no money, nor the means to get anything, that was the time when all my wishes were fulfilled. Wanting has no end to it. Even one billion baht isn't enough, nor a billion dollars. But freedom from wanting has an end. It is when you want nothing. Contentment is the only time you have enough.
- Who Ordered This Truckload of Dung? : Inspiring Stories for Welcoming Life's Difficulties (Ajahn Brahm) -
Ven P.A. Payutto taught:
Contentment
While not technically an economic concern, I would like to add a few comments on the subject of contentment. Contentment is a virtue that has often been misunderstood and, as it relates to consumption and satisfaction, it seems to merit some discussion.
The tacit objective of economics is a dynamic economy where every demand and desire is supplied and constantly renewed in a never-ending and ever-growing cycle. The entire mechanism is fueled by tanha. From the Buddhist perspective, this tireless search to satisfy desires is itself a kind of suffering. Buddhism proposes the cessation of this kind of desire, or contentment, as a more skillful objective.
Traditional economists would probably counter that without desire, the whole economy would grind to a halt. However, this is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of contentment. People misunderstand contentment because they fail to distinguish between the two different kinds of desire, tanha and chanda. We lump them together, and in proposing contentment, dismiss them both. A contented person comes to be seen as one who wants nothing at all. Here lies our mistake.
Obviously, people who are content will have fewer wants than those who are discontent. However, a correct definition of contentment must be qualified by the stipulation that it implies only the absence of artificial want, that is tanha; chanda, the desire for true well-being, remains. In other words, the path to true contentment involves reducing the artificial desire for sense-pleasure, while actively encouraging and supporting the desire for quality of life.
These two processes -- reducing tanha and encouraging chanda -- are mutually supportive. When we are easily satisfied in material things, we save time and energy that might otherwise be wasted on seeking objects of tanha. The time and energy we save can, in turn, be applied to the development of well-being, which is the objective of chanda. When it comes to developing skillful conditions, however, contentment is not a beneficial quality. Skillful conditions must be realized through effort. Too much contentment with regards to chanda easily turns into complacency and apathy. In this connection, the Buddha pointed out that his own attainment of enlightenment was largely a result of two qualities: unremitting effort, and lack of contentment with skillful conditions. [D.III.214; A.I.50; Dhs. 8, 234]http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/econ3.htm#Contentment
From: “Buddhist Economics: A Middle Way for the Market Place” by Ven P.A. Payutto
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Yes but it still doesn't answer to question as to how the world is going to progress if all the scientist and philosophers and Singaporeans stay contected. If you stop here, like coolbluewater say; many Buddhists youth will leave Buddhism for other Faith. You are talking like a wise old man who had given up; you are not meeting the needs of the youth.Originally posted by sinweiy:u check the definition of 'content' first before u think content is to 'stop' everything.
Contentment exceed all wishes:
Here's a powerful simile, thus i heard.
Five children were playing the wishing game. "If you are granted a
wish, what will you want?"
In this game, the first child said, "If I have a wish, I'll wish for
an ice-cream." Because it quite a sunny, hot day.
The second child said, "I'll wish for an ice-cream factory." Because,
if there's an ice-cream factory, you can have all the ice cream you
one when you want it.
The third child did even better, he said, "If I have a wish, I'll
wish for a billion dollars." Because with a billion dollars, you can
buy all type of factories.
The fourth child is smarter, he said, "If I have a wish, I'll wish
for 3 wishes. In my first wish, I can wish for an ice-cream factory,
and for my second wish, I can wish for a billion dollars, and for the
third wish, I can wish back my 3 wishes." Because with endless
wishes, you can get what you want again and again.
The fifth child bet all the four children. His wish was more profound
and brought more happiness. He said, "If I have a wish, I wish I
don't need any more wishes ever again, end of wishing." Because
without wishes, one let go, that is contentment and freedom, freedom
of desire. If one still needs wishes, one is not happy with the
present situation. Worldly beings would rather choose to be the forth
child, but the fifth child IS the idea of Buddha.
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Many will then say that Buddhism is for losers. Those who cannot make it become Buddhists. Are you sure that this is what Buddha taught? -
no lah u misinterprate liao lah pls read carefully lehOriginally posted by casino_king:OK you edited it and now you say "to limit (oneself)" That is good. Then the question arise... how will we achieve our best potential? If everyone limits themselves then will the scientists say, this is too difficult, forget it. Will the world then stop progressing?
Many will then look at Buddhism and say... such a sad religion. -
sorry I have to go...
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There is a story of a man who worked as a basket weaver. He was a simple man who enjoyed weaving his baskets. He whistled and sang and passed the day happily as he worked. At night he retired to his little hut and slept well.
One day a wealthy man passed by and saw this poor wretched basket weaver. He was filled with compassion and gave him a thousand dollars.
"Take this," he said, "and go enjoy yourself."
The basket weaver took the money with much appreciation. He had never seen a thousand dollars in his life. He took it back to his ramshackle hut and was wondering where he could keep it. But his hut was not very secure.
He could not sleep all night because he was worrying about robbers, or even rats nibbling at his cash.
The next day he took his thousand dollars to work, but he did not sing or whistle because he was worrying so much about his money again.
Once more, that night he did not sleep, and in the morning he returned the thousand dollars to the wealthy man, saying, "Give me back my happiness."
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/pandit9b.htm
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Yes thats true. Anyway I did not criticise anyone... maybe you should see my previous reply to him in this topic. He is welcome to reply me.Originally posted by coolbluewater:Actually, i feel that it's good to keep the discussions rolling on. Afterall, I believe alot of the readers have learnt alot from your discussion with Eternal and Neutral, and have no doubt that you have a very profound knowledge of buddhism. In fact, if we have more like you and the seniors in this forum, we will be able to spread buddhsim further, and have lesser buddhist youth converting to other religions. Do not be afraid of anybody criticising you because they do not agree with your view, just voice out and I'm sure you'll get something positive out of your discussion. -
Edited, please read again.Originally posted by casino_king:Yes but it still doesn't answer to question as to how the world is going to progress if all the scientist and philosophers and Singaporeans stay contected. If you stop here, like coolbluewater say; many Buddhists youth will leave Buddhism for other Faith. You are talking like a wise old man who had given up; you are not meeting the needs of the youth.
Many will then say that Buddhism is for losers. Those who cannot make it become Buddhists. Are you sure that this is what Buddha taught? -
Actually Sinweiy has got a point, to be contented. But that doesnt mean stop society's progression, renounce everything and be a monk. Improve living conditions, yet at the same time, be contented with what IS at the moment.Originally posted by casino_king:Yes but it still doesn't answer to question as to how the world is going to progress if all the scientist and philosophers and Singaporeans stay contected. If you stop here, like coolbluewater say; many Buddhists youth will leave Buddhism for other Faith. You are talking like a wise old man who had given up; you are not meeting the needs of the youth.
Many will then say that Buddhism is for losers. Those who cannot make it become Buddhists. Are you sure that this is what Buddha taught?
Nowadays everyone in society is trying to get somewhere, and when they got that somewhere, very soon or immediately he will want to get another 'somewhere' again. He continually miss the present moment. That is craving, desire, and dukkha. What Buddhism teaches is not that you cannot work for the future, but that be continuously 'in that moment' when you are working towards the future. Not to see this moment as a means to an end, but be fully PRESENT in the moment. That is contentment. It is also mindfulness, because a sort of clarity arises when you are no longer seeking the future or grasp onto the past but mindful of what IS at the moment. Another example, other than desire, is resistance. When we meet a situation we don't like, we resist it and we create a lot of useless mental noise 'I want to get out of this situation... I cant be here!' or 'how I wish tomorrow is a public holiday'. That is also dukkha. Thus, you can see, the modern materialistic world is not in fact contradictory with what the Buddha taught and every moment we can practise the dharma.
I know of many enlightened people who are very rich anyway. Many of them did not become monks or nuns but continued to stay in society. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
thatÂ’s lack teaching/education/learning of what reality really is. thereÂ’s no right or wrong. more importantly is people/youth learn and realise the truth of reality. realisation is a individual thingy. they must experience by themselves, not just we teach they follow suit. scientist and philosophers can still progress. wise people can still teach in harmony with the progress. sometimes, people need to see the bad side to learn the good side. if we keep using good sides, they wouldnÂ’t understand the bad sides. enlightenment is also to see things as they are. no wrong or right, then one reach a mind point of contentment, bliss, peace. thereÂ’s really nothing more to seek outside, everything is within ourselve. the top of final progression/advancement is actually within oneself.
Yes but it still doesn't answer to question as to how the world is going to progress if all the scientist and philosophers and Singaporeans stay contected. If you stop here, like coolbluewater say; many Buddhists youth will leave Buddhism for other Faith. You are talking like a wise old man who had given up; you are not meeting the needs of the youth.
Many will then say that Buddhism is for losers. Those who cannot make it become Buddhists. Are you sure that this is what Buddha taught?[/b]
without suffering, there's no enlightenment also.
btw, read the article by Ven P.A. Payutto above. it's v good.
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however the "happiness" that Buddha discovered is not the ordinary happiness we think it is. it's a very blissful state of neither happiness nor suffering , dropping both extreme, that is True happiness, nirvanic state.
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Nirvanic bliss is in terms of clarityOriginally posted by sinweiy:however the "happiness" that Buddha discovered is not the ordinary happiness we think it is. it's a very blissful state of neither happiness nor suffering , dropping both extreme, that is True happiness, nirvanic state.
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I take what I get and I see what had been shown to me. I understand what I have been taught.
It was only after I hit back at the simplistic answers that some interesting answers were forthcoming. Why? Why give simplistic answers that cannot stand simple reflections? Are these answer correct when they can be torn apart so easily?
Why not tell it like it is? Are you confused in your own minds so that you cannot answer you own questions in an acceptable manner?