The Ultimate Truth (Emptiness)
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Buddha's teaching never claimed to be difficult. It is only those minds who are always seeking something that finds it too 'simplistic', it is 'simplistic' because the mind cannot be contented with the answers and is seeking more. This is the nature of samsara, it is unsatisfactory. TRUTH doesnt have to be difficult, it merely is.Originally posted by casino_king:It was only after I hit back at the simplistic answers that some interesting answers were forthcoming. Why? Why give simplistic answers that cannot stand simple reflections? Are these answer correct when they can be torn apart so easily?
Buddha's message, the dharma seals, the 4 noble truths, are simple and points to the very nature of our existence. It doesnt take an academic to understand it. In fact, it doesnt even take a very intelligent person to understand it, because intellectual intelligence does not equate to wisdom. There was once a person whose IQ was quite low - and the Buddha taught him a method (something to do with sweeping the floor - cant remember the details), and even he could attain enlightenment and liberation. Enlightenment is not something deeply philosophical, it is in fact, observing the ordinary, and the usual sentient beings tend to overlook the ordinary because of the lack of mindfulness.
And how did the answers get torn apart so easily? Buddha's truths will NEVER be torn apart - it is impossible
because truth is truth and can be observed by everyone. The three dharma seals that is the basis of all authentic Buddhist teachings - annicam, dukkham and anatta, - impermanence; sufferings; non-self are not concepts we believe in, but things we can observe - and will never fail to observe if we deeply contemplate on them, whatever age it is.
So far you have failed to refute what we replied you. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Truths might not be. But your answers certainly were torn apart easily. What is truth if it is taught in error? Was I trying to refute what you replied or was it "How" you replied? When you tell the truth in an manner that is in error; will the listener not assume that the truth is false?
Buddha's teaching never claimed to be difficult. It is only those minds who are always seeking something that finds it too 'simplistic', it is 'simplistic' because the mind cannot be contented with the answers and is seeking more. This is the nature of samsara, it is unsatisfactory. TRUTH doesnt have to be difficult, it merely is.
Buddha's message, the dharma seals, the 4 noble truths, are simple and points to the very nature of our existence. It doesnt take an academic to understand it. In fact, it doesnt even take a very intelligent person to understand it, because intellectual intelligence does not equate to wisdom. There was once a person whose IQ was quite low - and the Buddha taught him a method (something to do with sweeping the floor - cant remember the details), and even he could attain enlightenment and liberation. Enlightenment is not something deeply philosophical, it is in fact, observing the ordinary, and the usual sentient beings tend to overlook the ordinary.
And how did the answers get torn apart so easily? Buddha's truths will NEVER be torn apart - it is impossible because truth is truth and can be observed by everyone. The three dharma seals that is the basis of all authentic Buddhist teachings - annicam, dukkham and anatta, - impermanence; sufferings; non-self are not concepts we believe in, but things we can observe - and will never fail to observe if we deeply contemplate on them, whatever age it is.
So far you have [b]failed to refute what we replied you.[/b] -
Very vague.Originally posted by casino_king:Truths might not be. But your answers certainly were torn apart easily. What is truth if it is taught in error? Was I trying to refute what you replied or was it "How" you replied? When you tell the truth in an manner that is in error; will the listener not assume that the truth is false?
First you said you never refute anything, the next you said its easily refuted.
How am I supposed to know what is easily refuted then?
And how am I supposed to know what is in error?
Come on, be more precise. -
Your answers.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Very vague.
First you said you never refute anything, the next you said its easily refuted.
How am I supposed to know what is easily refuted then?
And how am I supposed to know what is in error?
Come on, be more precise.
If I refute your answers; you straightway implied that I refuted the Truth. You see it? The wrong answers will bring the truth into disrepute? -
My answers is in errors? How is it so? Pls stop being vague otherwise there will not be progress as we cannot understand what you are trying to say.Originally posted by casino_king:Your answers.
If I refute your answers; you straightway implied that I refuted the Truth. You see it? The wrong answers will bring the truth into disrepute? -
"When I had no money, nor the means to get anything, that was the time when all my wishes were fulfilled. Wanting has no end to it. Even one billion baht isn't enough, nor a billion dollars. But freedom from wanting has an end. It is when you want nothing. Contentment is the only time you have enough."Originally posted by An Eternal Now:My answers is in errors? How is it so? Pls stop being vague otherwise there will not be progress as we cannot understand what you are trying to say.
This kind of answers. It is an answer that is not in touch with reality. Straightway people will think that he is asking people to be monks. That the only way is to be a monk. That the only way to happiness is being a monk.
It does not touch on the issues of human motivations, for example. -
This kind of answers: "Once more, that night he did not sleep, and in the morning he returned the thousand dollars to the wealthy man, saying, "Give me back my happiness."Originally posted by An Eternal Now:My answers is in errors? How is it so? Pls stop being vague otherwise there will not be progress as we cannot understand what you are trying to say.
People are working hard everyday to take care of their family. People are working hard everyday to earn their pay and you come along and say they should give their salaries back to their boss. -
"When I had no money, nor the means to get anything, that was the time when all my wishes were fulfilled.
Buddha never asked people to not have money. We must be able to differentiate the role of a monk and a lay practitioner, and the Buddha clearly differentiated it for us. In fact, the Buddha did gave this sermon before:Seize The Day
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In the Noble Eight-fold Path[1] taught by Buddha, the Right Action[1] advocates practitioners of Buddhism to pursue all that are virtuous with zeal and a commitment to progress. Such should be the correct attitude whether in our career or in pursuit of the ultimate truth. The following short story may help to illustrate Buddha's teaching more clearly.
Early one morning Buddha and one of his chief disciples, Ananda, set out from Jetavana to seek alms. They came to the city of Sravasti. As they entered the city gate and were walking along a path by the city wall, they saw an aged couple.
Their backs were crooked and they could neither straighten themselves nor move about. They were dressed in rags, appearing unhygienic and well worn with age: frail, toothless, grey hair, hard of hearing and poor eyesight. They lived next to a pile of rubbish by the derelict wall of a sleazy alley. They crouched close to each other, facing a small fire for warmth. With eyes only for each other, they resembled a pair of old swans that cannot bear to part.
The Buddha turned his head and asked Ananda, "Did you see that aged couple by the wall and the warmth of the burning cow dung?"
Ananda replied, "World Honoured One, I see them."
The Buddha continued, "If this old couple had been determined and diligent when they were young and strong, regardless of the nature of their work as long as it is legitimate, perhaps at this age they are already amongst the wealthiest class of people in Sravasti. On the other hand, if they had chosen to renounce their worldly life to learn and cultivate the right path with diligence, perhaps they would have already attained the Arhat [2] by now.
Even if they were not that determined when they were young, but are ambitious and diligent only at a later age and they work with the Right Action, perhaps they are already amongst the second wealthiest class of people in Sravasti. Similarly, if on the other hand, they had chosen to renounce their worldly life to learn and cultivate the right path with diligence, perhaps they would have already attained the Anagami [2].
Worse still, should they only realise about diligence and progress when they are already at their middle age, and only then began to work with the Right Action, perhaps they are already amongst the third wealthiest class of people in Sravasti. If they had chosen to renounce their worldly life to learn and cultivate the right path with diligence, perhaps they would have already attained the Sakrdagamin [2].
However, they did none of the above. Instead, they spent their life times loving and possessing each other, and wasted the most useful time of their lives. That is why today they are helpless and have no way out of their predicament. They live in poor conditions, are penniless and there is nothing that they can do. For them it is a living death, having to face the retribution of their own doing, and nobody took any pity on them. What meaning is there in a life like this?"
In order to encourage people not to fall into the same predicament, the Buddha said, "Ananda, always remember to advise and guide people:
In youth, be determined, diligent, and thrifty and strive to acquire knowledge.
Maintain a mind that is distant and unchained from desire and be focused on building a career during the prime of life.
In middle age, realise a stable career that is based on diligence, zeal, progress and Right Action.
Always use the wealth meaningfully to benefit self and others.
Do not wait till old age and rely on the people's benevolence like the aged swan."
The above incident demonstrates the compassion of the Buddha in caring for sentient beings and encouraging people to be determined in striving for progress, regardless of whether one is concerned with building a career, or one who has renounced the worldly life to learn and cultivate the right path. His only wish was for all sentient beings to be distant from suffering and attain happiness in life.
Notes:
[1] Noble Eight-fold Path:
1. Right Speech
2. Right Action
3. Right Livelihood
4. Right Effort
5. Right Mindfulness
6. Right Concentration
7. Right Views
8. Right Thought
[2] The four stages in Hinayana sanctity:
- 1st stage - srota-apanna
- 2nd stage - sakrdagamin
- 3rd stage - anagami-phala
- 4th stage - arhat, the highest stageWanting has no end to it. Even one billion baht isn't enough, nor a billion dollars. But freedom from wanting has an end. It is when you want nothing. Contentment is the only time you have enough."
It is ALWAYS in touch with reality - not a time that is not in touch with reality. Contentment is true wealth because wealth is relative and dependant on what you perceive as enough - and enough is only when you are contented. Simple? This kind of statement is really direct and unrefutable - just as things like 'all things that arise will have an end' this kind of statement that even low IQ people will probably be able to understand.
This kind of answers. It is an answer that is not in touch with reality.
And as the article above mentioned, which is a sermon by the Buddha, the Buddha taught that everyone should have the zeal and commitment to progress. It does NOT mean that being contented means we can slack - that is loth. That is laziness, and it is a fetter.
See my previous reply:
...What Buddhism teaches is not that you cannot work for the future, but that be continuously 'in that moment' when you are working towards the future. Not to see this moment as a means to an end, but be fully PRESENT in the moment. That is contentment. It is also mindfulness, because a sort of clarity arises when you are no longer seeking the future or grasp onto the past but mindful of what IS at the moment...Straightway people will think that he is asking people to be monks. That the only way is to be a monk. That the only way to happiness is being a monk.
Of course not. Lay practitioners can just be as happy and be as enlightened. But a monk and a lay practitioner has different roles - a monk focus on helping the lay practitioners in propagating dharma and the lay practitioners help the monks by providing them what they need economically. We are interdependant.It does not touch on the issues of human motivations, for example.
Oh... isnt the article/sermon that I provided you just above inspiring, motivational enough?
Want some more? There are a lot more motivational things that the Buddha said.
But ultimately we must never depend on such 'motivational', 'inspiring' things because even they are impermanent and unsatisfactory.
Exerpt from NOW IS THE KNOWING by Venerable Ajahn Sumedho:....Reflect on your own life and the cycles of nature. Just observe what delights and what depresses. See how we can feel very positive or very negative. Notice how we want to attach to beauty or to pleasant feelings or to inspiration. It's really nice to feel inspired isn't it? "Buddhism is the greatest religion of them all" or "When I discovered the Buddha I was so happy, it's a wonderful discovery!" When we get a little bit douvtful, a little bit depressed, we go and read an inspiring book and get high. But remember, getting high is an impermanent condition, it's like getting happy, you have to keep doing it, sustaining it and after you keep doing something over and over again you no longer feel happy with it. How many sweets can you eat? At first they make you happy and then they make you sick. So depending on religious inspiration is not enough. If you attach to inspiration then when you get fed up with Buddhism you'll go off and find some new thing to inspire you...
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Not to forget that not only is the right zeal one of features of the 8 fold path to enlightenment, it is also one of the paramitas that needs to be developed for the attainment of Buddhahood.
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The next paragraph after the story Sinweiy quoted is:Originally posted by casino_king:This kind of answers: "Once more, that night he did not sleep, and in the morning he returned the thousand dollars to the wealthy man, saying, "Give me back my happiness."
People are working hard everyday to take care of their family. People are working hard everyday to earn their pay and you come along and say they should give their salaries back to their boss.
You may think that Buddhism discourages you from seeking knowledge or credentials, or from working hard to earn money so you can support yourself and family and friends and contribute to worthy causes and institutions. No. By all means, make use of your life and your intelligence, and obtain all these things legally and honestly. The point is to be contented with what you have. Do not become a slave of craving: that is the message. Reflect on the weaknesses of beings so that you can get the most from your body and life before you are too sick and old to practice and can only depart from this useless corpse.
source: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/pandit9b.htm -
I hope you see my point. Why do I need to prob and prob then you bring out the correct examples and teaching?
You see that contentment in the first 2 "examples in error" does not jell with the Buddha's teaching on striving. Then why are there such examples floating around in Buddhist circles?
Are the Buddhist confused? Do they understand the concept of "contentment" as taught by Buddha or have they corrupted it?
Are these examples part of the "Dharma" that should be discarded? -
Are you saying the 'striving' example and the 'contentment' examples are contradictory?Originally posted by casino_king:I hope you see my point. Why do I need to prob and prob then you bring out the correct examples and teaching?
You see that contentment in the first 2 "examples in error" does not jell with the Buddha's teaching on striving. Then why are there such examples floating around in Buddhist circles?
Are the Buddhist confused? Do they understand the concept of "contentment" as taught by Buddha or have they corrupted it?
Are these examples part of the "Dharma" that should be discarded?
It is not.
Sinweiy's example says:
You may think that Buddhism discourages you from seeking knowledge or credentials, or from working hard to earn money so you can support yourself and family and friends and contribute to worthy causes and institutions. No. By all means, make use of your life and your intelligence, and obtain all these things legally and honestly. The point is to be contented with what you have. Do not become a slave of craving: that is the message. Reflect on the weaknesses of beings so that you can get the most from your body and life before you are too sick and old to practice and can only depart from this useless corpse.
Another one:
Reply with Quote
Ven P.A. Payutto taught:
Contentment
While not technically an economic concern, I would like to add a few comments on the subject of contentment. Contentment is a virtue that has often been misunderstood and, as it relates to consumption and satisfaction, it seems to merit some discussion.
The tacit objective of economics is a dynamic economy where every demand and desire is supplied and constantly renewed in a never-ending and ever-growing cycle. The entire mechanism is fueled by tanha. From the Buddhist perspective, this tireless search to satisfy desires is itself a kind of suffering. Buddhism proposes the cessation of this kind of desire, or contentment, as a more skillful objective.
Traditional economists would probably counter that without desire, the whole economy would grind to a halt. However, this is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of contentment. People misunderstand contentment because they fail to distinguish between the two different kinds of desire, tanha and chanda. We lump them together, and in proposing contentment, dismiss them both. A contented person comes to be seen as one who wants nothing at all. Here lies our mistake.
Obviously, people who are content will have fewer wants than those who are discontent. However, a correct definition of contentment must be qualified by the stipulation that it implies only the absence of artificial want, that is tanha; chanda, the desire for true well-being, remains. In other words, the path to true contentment involves reducing the artificial desire for sense-pleasure, while actively encouraging and supporting the desire for quality of life.
These two processes -- reducing tanha and encouraging chanda -- are mutually supportive. When we are easily satisfied in material things, we save time and energy that might otherwise be wasted on seeking objects of tanha. The time and energy we save can, in turn, be applied to the development of well-being, which is the objective of chanda. When it comes to developing skillful conditions, however, contentment is not a beneficial quality. Skillful conditions must be realized through effort. Too much contentment with regards to chanda easily turns into complacency and apathy. In this connection, the Buddha pointed out that his own attainment of enlightenment was largely a result of two qualities: unremitting effort, and lack of contentment with skillful conditions. [D.III.214; A.I.50; Dhs. 8, 234]http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/econ3.htm#Contentment
From: “Buddhist Economics: A Middle Way for the Market Place” by Ven P.A. Payutto
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OK I see that you are now bringing up excellent examples. Will be logging out soon. Chat again.
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With regards to Ajahn Brahm's:
When I had no money, nor the means to get anything, that was the time when all my wishes were fulfilled.
Ajahn Brahm's experience is his experience as a carefree monk who has no problem with his quality of life - he is already very happy and lacks nothing. But it is only after the benefactor decided to give him the money, that lots of the so called 'artificial desires' sprung up.
In my previous post quoted from sinweiy's article:
In other words, the path to true contentment involves reducing the artificial desire for sense-pleasure, while actively encouraging and supporting the desire for quality of life.
Being a monk he need not concern for his quality of life because while all monks does not indulge in sensual pleasures they also have a stable life and need not worry for his food and clothes.
And he decided to give the money away for a good cause because he felt that others may need it more than him. -
Sorry but correct mi if i'm wrong.According to many observation the so-called buddhist youth converting to other religions are not actually buddhist at all.Rather they come from families who "practise folk religion".This is to say they have limited and no knowledge of buddhism at all.Originally posted by coolbluewater:Actually, i feel that it's good to keep the discussions rolling on. Afterall, I believe alot of the readers have learnt alot from your discussion with Eternal and Neutral, and have no doubt that you have a very profound knowledge of buddhism. In fact, if we have more like you and the seniors in this forum, we will be able to spread buddhsim further, and have lesser buddhist youth converting to other religions. Do not be afraid of anybody criticising you because they do not agree with your view, just voice out and I'm sure you'll get something positive out of your discussion.
often when i met these so called converts , none of them could even brief mi the very basic teaching of buddhism,in fact none of them have a slight idea wat buddhism is all abt. -
I don't think that you can blame them completely. On TV they see Monkey God and Pig God in the name of Buddhism. I never hear any Buddhist protesting? Every time an unorthodox movie, like the Da Vinci Code now comes along, the Christians make a big noise and everyone knows that it is "fiction."Originally posted by neutral_onliner:Sorry but correct mi if i'm wrong.According to my own observation the so-called buddhist youth converting to other religions are not actually buddhist at all.Rather they come from families who "practise folk religion".This is to say they have limited and no knowledge of buddhism at all.
often when i met these so called converts , none of them could even brief mi the very basic teaching of buddhism,in fact none of them have a slight idea wat buddhism is all abt.
When they come to forums like this, they get answers like those I got. It was only after much grieve that I got the answers I wanted. They will just walk away thinking to themselves either that Buddhism is a lot of nonsense or totally unrelated to their own lives. They will not demand that you give the correct answers. You see the problem?
At least the Christians have an English Bible for them to read. Not only are the Buddhist scriptures in a strange language, the Buddhist's scriptures are in bits and pieces.
I must say that with the internet it is now much better. There are lots of sites to get Buddhist scriptures. But in Asia, I think that you will have a hard time because like you say, the folk religions and practices have encroached into pure Buddhist teaching.
Even in Thailand, especially a lot of Thai Chinese still hold on to Chinese folk traditions.
Then there is also Hindu influence, a very strong influence.
What you can do on your part is understand the needs and aspirations of the youths and use examples that makes sense and not use examples that were in circulation thousand of years ago. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
well mr casino u know something ? Of all the conversation i have wf u till now ... think tis is the one tat i totally agree wf u
I don't think that you can blame them completely. On TV they see Monkey God and Pig God in the name of Buddhism. I never hear any Buddhist protesting? Every time an unorthodox movie, like the Da Vinci Code now comes along, the Christians make a big noise and everyone knows that it is "fiction."
When they come to forums like this, they get answers like those I got. It was only after much grieve that I got the answers I wanted. They will just walk away thinking to themselves either that Buddhism is a lot of nonsense or totally unrelated to their own lives. They will not demand that you give the correct answers. You see the problem?
At least the Christians have an [b]English Bible for them to read. Not only are the Buddhist scriptures in a strange language, the Buddhist's scriptures are in bits and pieces.
I must say that with the internet it is now much better. There are lots of sites to get Buddhist scriptures. But in Asia, I think that you will have a hard time because like you say, the folk religions and practices have encroached into pure Buddhist teaching.
Even in Thailand, especially a lot of Thai Chinese still hold on to Chinese folk traditions.
Then there is also Hindu influence, a very strong influence.
What you can do on your part is understand the needs and aspirations of the youths and use examples that makes sense and not use examples that were in circulation thousand of years ago.[/b]
As i had mentioned b4 Buddhism is (relatively) new to the western world, with few cultural referents, little in the way of developed networks of support, relatively few monasteries and so onwhich i think is a tremendous asset of Western Buddhism whereas buddhism in the East is so laden with rituals and tied in to cultures by folk traditions that the dharma is often obscured. The west are finding a real movement toward a strong lay practice that is based on the simplicity of the dharma without much of the cultural baggage carried by eastern traditions. Maybe western buddhism will 'lead' one day
Actually in recent years more and more dharma experts from the west r coming to asia (including singapore) to promote buddhism.In fact i got to really understand buddhism thru these 'foreign talents'
hmm i think singapore really lack of foreign talents in many fields even in spreading buddhism -
u think we are odd one out, we think u are odd one out. they think we are odd one out. but they never realise that it's the judging mind that's odd one out, regardless of religion, sect, science, conceptual mind.
Nobody in this world will buy this kind of nonsense...
maybe we can ask many people in the world who are fairy intelligent and rational to read and see the discussion. see if they buy or not buy.
i think those that would still think it's nonsense, are those with deep faith in their religion rather than those who have some knowledge of science and rational mind.
would be surprise who's the odd one out, now that Buddhism is catching on even in the west.
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
I don't think that I was judging you. I just just pointing out certain things that I was troubled with. Being Buddhist, you tried to discover what those thing that troubled me were and explained clearly what your beliefs are.
u think we are odd one out, we think u are odd one out. they think we are odd one out. but they never realise that it's the [b]judging mind that's odd one out, regardless of religion, sect, science, conceptual mind.
maybe we can ask many people in the world who are fairy intelligent and rational to read and see the discussion. see if they buy or not buy.
i think those that would still think it's nonsense, are those with deep faith in their religion rather than those who have some knowledge of science and rational mind.
would be surprise who's the odd one out, now that Buddhism is catching on even in the west.
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If we can go back to what you started... Post 15 May 2006 · 02:02 PM -
This reminds of the story of the big elephant.
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Will be most grateful.
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A number of disciples went to the Buddha and said, "Sir, there are living here in Savatthi many wandering hermits and scholars who indulge in constant dispute, some saying that the world is infinite and eternal and others that it is finite and not eternal, some saying that the soul dies with the body and others that it lives on forever, and so forth. What, Sir, would you say concerning them?"Originally posted by concerned_man:This reminds of the story of the big elephant.
The Buddha answered, "Once upon a time there was a certain raja who called to his servant and said, 'Come, good fellow, go and gather together in one place all the men of Savatthi who were born blind... and show them an elephant.' 'Very good, sire,' replied the servant, and he did as he was told. He said to the blind men assembled there, 'Here is an elephant,' and to one man he presented the head of the elephant, to another its ears, to another a tusk, to another the trunk, the foot, back, tail, and tuft of the tail, saying to each one that that was the elephant.
"When the blind men had felt the elephant, the raja went to each of them and said to each, 'Well, blind man, have you seen the elephant? Tell me, what sort of thing is an elephant?'
"Thereupon the men who were presented with the head answered, 'Sire, an elephant is like a pot.' And the men who had observed the ear replied, 'An elephant is like a winnowing basket.' Those who had been presented with a tusk said it was a ploughshare. Those who knew only the trunk said it was a plough; others said the body was a grainery; the foot, a pillar; the back, a mortar; the tail, a pestle, the tuft of the tail, a brush.
"Then they began to quarrel, shouting, 'Yes it is!' 'No, it is not!' 'An elephant is not that!' 'Yes, it's like that!' and so on, till they came to blows over the matter.
"Brethren, the raja was delighted with the scene.
"Just so are these preachers and scholars holding various views blind and unseeing.... In their ignorance they are by nature quarrelsome, wrangling, and disputatious, each maintaining reality is thus and thus."
Then the Exalted One rendered this meaning by uttering this verse of uplift
O how they cling and wrangle, some who claim
For preacher and monk the honored name!
For, quarreling, each to his view they cling.
Such folk see only one side of a thing. -
Originally posted by neutral_onliner:
Yes but now things have gone one full circle and the Buddhists, even thogh they can cite the verse are guilty of it? See?
Then the Exalted One rendered this meaning by uttering this verse of uplift
[b]O how they cling and wrangle, some who claim
For preacher and monk the honored name!
For, quarreling, each to his view they cling.
Such folk see only one side of a thing.
[/b] -
[quote]Originally posted by neutral_onliner:
[b]duplicate post deleted -
if we all can sever the judging mind that's the root of all problem, all will be well.
even bible know this concept:
“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.” - Matthew 7:1-5
ps: look inward, and enlightenment is near.
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