Buddhism cannot be discussed openly?
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Not you making excuses, the religion making the excuses... Christianity making the excuses when it is cornered and Buddhism making excuses when it is cornered. The followers than "buy" all these excuses and repeat them.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Excuses? I dont think I have made a single excuse in my post.
This is exactly what goes on in the heads of gamblers... now I certaiinly have much better insights.
Forums are good, there is a record of what is being said and so people tend to be more truthful. -
Originally posted by neutral_onliner:
Let me use the post quoted as an example of the "excuses" I am talking about.
Why not?for Buddhism [b]encourages intelligent doubting and believes in the potential supremacy of the individual.From the intellectual and philosophical content of Buddhism rose the freedom of thought and inquiry unparalleled by any other established world religion or philosophy. Though the Buddha urges us to consider His teachings, there is no obligation or compulsion whatsoever to believe or accept any Buddhist doctrine.Also buddha did not want followers who believed Him blindly; He wants us to think and understand for ourselves.
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The whole post is logical clear and intelligent. Unfortunately it is totally irrelevant.
It is like I say to a scientist, hey your research is not up to standards.
The scientist then turn around and say:
The standards set by the community are the highest. The procedures had all been carefully thought through and developed and refined over the years.
True but totally irrelevant right? The problem is with the way he did his research and not whether internation standards are acceptable or full of loopholes. -
Originally posted by neutral_onliner:
You certainly made many claims about this and that... yet totally void of evidence other than my grandfather said this and my grandmother said that. (Replce grandfather and grandmother with "the Holy Bible" or "the Holy Sutras" or "the Dhammapada" or "the Holy Koran"
Come on [b]mr casino i expect questions with "substance" from you.I think you can do better than that...In the mean time ...
Next better player pls [/b]
OK since you claim to be a Buddhist expert... suffering... nibena... rebirth... or whatever you wish to focus on.... bring up one and we look at it in depth. Please choose one with good evidence and not based on what your grandfather or grandmother said. -
There are people who
-See it
-Don't see it
-Realise it
-Don't realise it
-Can see it, but don't border
-blurr it etc
Regardless of the above, all Buddhas are always at peace and in harmony with all sentient beings.
"Lai3 Zhe3 Bu4 Ju4 Qu4 Zhe3 Bu4 Liu2"
The opened discussion is only act as a guide. It is an excellent guide with one of the most convincing explaination. Truthfully, the answer all of us is seeking is not from the external, it is within our core. It is at a time, when our heart and mind are in a state of complete peace and harmony with perfect clarity. Wisdom develop.
Rather than trying to win in an argument with much steam. Why not investigate and ascertain for oneself. Buddhism is really not about winning, it is about realization.
Once found, you will know it!
Amitabha. -
That is suppose to sound very wise and logical.Originally posted by concerned_man:There are people who
-See it
-Don't see it
-Realise it
-Don't realise it
-Can see it, but don't border
-blurr it etc
Regardless of the above, all Buddhas are always at peace and in harmony with all sentient beings.
"Lai3 Zhe3 Bu4 Ju4 Qu4 Zhe3 Bu4 Liu2"
The opened discussion is only act as a guide. It is an excellent guide with one of the most convincing explaination. Truthfully, the answer all of us is seeking is not from the external, it is within our core. It is at a time, when our heart and mind are in a state of complete peace and harmony with perfect clarity. Wisdom develop.
Rather than trying to win in an argument with much steam. Why not investigate and ascertain for oneself. Buddhism is really not about winning, it is about realization.
Once found, you will know it!
Amitabha.
What I just posted in the christian forum... I will cut and paste here:
I am suddenly so interested in religion; christian and buddhist and whatever because I realise that gamblers do the same thing.... act without sound evidence.
They tell you stuff like... "you want me to stop, but can you guarantee that I will not win? Can you guarantee that the next time I go to the casino and when I walk out I will not be a winner?"
This is exactly what I face when I talk to religious people. They ask me: "can you guarantee that praying will not help?"
Idiots, gamblers and religious people.
You go by evidence and make decisions based on good evidence not based on speculation and delusions and then ask people to prove that your delusions are not delusions.
A simple question for you. This has been going on for about 2550 years according to Thai calander.
Where are the results? Did the Buddhist bother to collate the results for all this experiment that has been going on for 2550 years?
Where are the studies to show that what you claim is true?
Where is the evidence tha man can fly around with legs cross and walk on water and do all those fantastic things that Buddhist claim man can do? -
Originally posted by casino_king:
will come in time. no need to be so eager.
Where are the results? Did the Buddhist bother to collate the results for all this experiment that has been going on for 2550 years?
Where are the studies to show that what you claim is true?
Where is the evidence tha man can fly around with legs cross and walk on water and do all those fantastic things that Buddhist claim man can do?
we claim possible, why not...but we never encourage spiritual powers.
u believe human can travel to the future? can time machine work? they say can, but now the technology is still not there yet. u believe or not?
in nowadays, even if we do provide evidences, and we did, ppl wouldn't buy the evidences. they will still think it's not according to the information one grown up.
but i still don't know which evidences that u need. can you list it out?
but don't list spiritual powers. they are useless to Buddhist practice!
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this thread is becoming to be like that thread "What will happen to people who don't believe in Buddhism?" kinda "discussions" ? -
trueOriginally posted by paperflower: this thread is becoming to be like that thread "What will happen to people who don't believe in Buddhism?" kinda "discussions" ?
i agree -
I hope you understand that it is not a question of being eager or not. It is a question of whether one should act and do according to some teaching Christian/Buddhist or Islam despite the fact that all these teachings are based on unsubstantiated claims without good evidence.Originally posted by sinweiy:will come in time. no need to be so eager.
we claim possible, why not...but we never encourage spiritual powers.
u believe human can travel to the future? can time machine work? they say can, but now the technology is still not there yet. u believe or not?
in nowadays, even if we do provide evidences, and we did, ppl wouldn't buy the evidences. they will still think it's not according to the information one grown up.
but i still don't know which evidences that u need. can you list it out?
but don't list spiritual powers. they are useless to Buddhist practice!
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The christians hold on to their beliefs in a life and death manner and so do the Buddhists. Muslims as we all know, some of them anyway are willing to murder people including themselves if they think those people's governments are insulting or waging "war" against their religion.
The whole idea that you can accept claims and act accordingly without demanding good evidence is abhorent.
Can your "evidence" stand up to scrutiny?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method -
Originally posted by casino_king:
yes. evidences are provided by 'Scienc'-tists. ppl are not scientists themselves, so very difficult to understand, hence the scrutinization.
I hope you understand that it is not a question of being eager or not. It is a question of whether one should act and do according to some teaching Christian/Buddhist or Islam despite the fact that all these teachings are based on unsubstantiated claims without good evidence.
The christians hold on to their beliefs in a life and death manner and so do the Buddhists. Muslims as we all know, some of them anyway are willing to murder people including themselves if they think those people's governments are insulting or waging "war" against their religion.
The whole idea that you can accept claims and act accordingly without demanding good evidence is abhorent.
Can your "evidence" stand up to scrutiny?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method [/b]
we also hope you understand that it is not a question of everything need evidences. do u need evidences to prove that you are human? born under who and who? evidences to study, sleep, live etcs? everything need evidences can be a problem too. might as well commit sucide. all living things have this common aim to be happy. work on that.
it's like we are shot by a poison arrow. and one still want to find out who shoot the arrow and who made it etcs etcs. it'll be too late. we said hello...threat the wound/pain first.
tried not to compare Buddhadharma with 'what u known as other religions'.
Buddhadharma is something that the more you study it, the deeper it becomes, the more profound you find it to be. This is a quality unique to Buddhadharma. it's not static or dogmatic. With other teachings, the more you study them, the lighter they become. they become static.
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You are not making your self clear here.Originally posted by sinweiy:[b]yes. evidences are provided by 'Scienc'-tists. ppl are not scientists themselves, so very difficult to understand, hence the scrutinization.
[quote]we also hope you understand that it is not a question of everything need evidences. do u need evidences to prove that you are human? born under who and who? evidences to study, sleep, live etcs? everything need evidences can be a problem too. might as well commit sucide. all living things have this common aim to be happy. work on that. So what is your point here? You do not know whether you are human or chimpanzee?it's like we are shot by a poison arrow. and one still want to find out who shoot the arrow and who made it etcs etcs. it'll be too late. we said hello...threat the wound/pain first.
And get a quack doctor who will kill you instead of treat it or get a medical doctor to treat it? Use what type of treatment? Delusion, imagination or well tested and well researched medicine?tried not to compare Buddhadharma with 'what u known as other religions'. Buddhadharma is something that the more you study it, the deeper it becomes, the more profound you find it to be. This is a quality unique to Buddhadharma. it's not static or dogmatic. With other teachings, the more you study them, the lighter they become. they become static.
And on what basis you make that claim? It is more likely that the more you study the more you become brainwashed? The more you study the more you depend on superstitions and not not on reality and well founded claims?
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Originally posted by casino_king:
I don't think so.
I hope you understand that it is not a question of being eager or not. It is a question of whether one should act and do according to some teaching Christian/Buddhist or Islam despite the fact that all these teachings are based on unsubstantiated claims without good evidence.
The christians hold on to their beliefs in a life and death manner and [b]so do the Buddhists. Muslims as we all know, some of them anyway are willing to murder people including themselves if they think those people's governments are insulting or waging "war" against their religion.
The whole idea that you can accept claims and act accordingly without demanding good evidence is abhorent.
Can your "evidence" stand up to scrutiny?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method [/b]
I don't think you understand the essence of Buddhism
i don't want to tell you what is buddhism. Go find it out yourself.
Till then please don't assume with your lack of knowledge for the topic and based on " ME " Perspective whom is obviously lacking of sufficient information.
Yeah you are right we should not accept anythings blindly and let things control our mind or life. -
spirituality has a profound meaning that is not able to be perceived on the surface with the naked fleshy eye-consciousness. so it does not mean it does not exist. yes of cos spirituality is within oneself and only oneself can experience such spirituality. still needs evidence? the evidence is you yourself finding it within yourself that is more convincing than superficial speculations and idle assumptions and misunderstandings.Originally posted by casino_king:If you are like the christians and claim that you can see and know after you are dead... well maybe you can claim that "spirituality cannot be comprehended by simple logic and thoughts. We will have to see it for ourselves."
You are saying that here and now in this physical world, people can see and do things that are supernatural but even though you are talking about here and now and living people, you fail to produce any evidence of that and you simply believe it.
I am so tired of debating with religious people becuase you people have such low standards. Anything is acceptable as evidence as long as you choose to believe it.
physical world is the here and now reality of living and so is spirituality. even though you live and work your way through this material world, you do not neglect your spiritual cultivations. thats where you produce your thoughts and actions thats either wholesome or unwholesome to make this world we share and live in to be harmonious peaceful or disharmonious chaotic. the evident of spirituality is as such. -
it is your own attachment to your closed mind thats stopping you from studying deeper to understand the teachings. you surrender to your own self-created ego thats preventing you to seek deeper and you only want the superficial. thats not substantial enough for you to be realistic. and this is not an excuse. this is the reality which is... you cannot face it, not others.Originally posted by casino_king:.....because you have develop over the years many ways to "escape" having to face reality.
When people ask you for good evidence to back up your claims, you have so many excuses it is unbelievable.
At the end of the day, all your claims are "explained" away instead of proven. -
So what is your point here? You do not know whether you are human or chimpanzee?
huh..so simple also cannot understand? point is u don't every time need evidences. evidences this, evidences that. No wonder u keep wanting evidences.Originally posted by casino_king:
on studying other's teachings. on given another 100 years still not able to finish study Dharma(aka Truth).
And on what basis you make that claim? It is more likely that the more you study the more you become brainwashed? The more you study the more you depend on superstitions and not not on reality and well founded claims?
Our well founded claims (by scientists) that work on reality, had to ur eyes turn into delusions, superstitions. very difficult. as if wearing a tinted sunglass. no matter what u see, it's all tinted. what a superstition of superstition. sigh!
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You see what you have just posted is not Buddhism as such but a treatise on what spirituality is.Originally posted by paperflower:spirituality has a profound meaning that is not able to be perceived on the surface with the naked fleshy eye-consciousness. so it does not mean it does not exist. yes of cos spirituality is within oneself and only oneself can experience such spirituality. still needs evidence? the evidence is you yourself finding it within yourself that is more convincing than superficial speculations and idle assumptions and misunderstandings.
physical world is the here and now reality of living and so is spirituality. even though you live and work your way through this material world, you do not neglect your spiritual cultivations. thats where you produce your thoughts and actions thats either wholesome or unwholesome to make this world we share and live in to be harmonious peaceful or disharmonious chaotic. the evident of spirituality is as such.
Excellent.
Even though many will argue that laws are more effective to "make this world we share and live in to be harmonious peaceful or disharmonious chaotic."
You also say:
"yes of cos spirituality is within oneself and only oneself can experience such spirituality."
Excellent.
You have put it down to the level of "personal" experiences.
As long as religious people understand that what they believe in are baseless in the sense that you cannot "explain" or "convince" somebody else and is a uniquely personal phenomena; that is fine and in fact great.
What you have just said then would also mean the Christians and Muslims and Hindus can also find their own spirituality within themselves.
If you can get rid of the fantastic and supernatural claims of Buddhism and convince people to "cultivate" their own spirituality, then I would dare say that Buddhism has a bright future with sceptical people like me. -
casino_king,
discussions are to be open and not being pessimistic clinging to your own ego of assumptions just because people can't see each other faces here, doesn't give anyone the right to criticise or make fun of others or be rude to others.
it is not about shopping for ideas or faiths. it is you being true to yourself sanely. when you can't seek the ultimate truth, that does not leave you to judge or criticise. it is because you do not seek hard enough or practice hard enough so don't blame the old teachings for being groundless or ridiculous. it is there for you to explore. try again.... and again....
the teacher, buddha taught us to be "soft, modest, humble and consistant in our seeking, and not going around loudly asking people to prove this prove that. it is not about what your grandmother or grandfather teach your parents then your parents teach you. this is wrong concept of you. indirectly you insulted your own relatives because you bring public shame to them for not giving you proper upbringing. so be careful with your words and thoughts and do not pin-point mindlessly. and i'm not being harsh. just a reminder that when you bring your subject of "parents" or "grandparents" this is irrelevant and is a good target for people to have bad opinions of you. so it is appropriate to show respects. -
Originally posted by sinweiy:
It is not that there are no evidence that you are not a chimp and is human. It is that all the evidence is right in front of you, there is no need for you to demand for evidence.
quote:So what is your point here? You do not know whether you are human or chimpanzee?
huh..so simple also cannot understand? point is u don't every time need evidences. evidences this, evidences that. No wonder u keep wanting evidences.on studying other's teachings. on given another 100 years still not able to finish study Dharma(aka Truth).
Your unfounded claims of fantastic abilities of Buddhist are what turns people off... we look at Buddhist and say: Where? Where are all those things they claim they can do or become?
Our well founded claims (by scientists) that work on reality, had to ur eyes turn into delusions, superstitions. very difficult. as if wearing a tinted sunglass. no matter what u see, it's all tinted. what a superstition of superstition. sigh!
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[/b] -
just a sharing. theravada tradition would be your level of "comfort" reasonably conducive to your understandings. give it an open try.....Originally posted by casino_king:.......I would dare say that Buddhism has a bright future with sceptical people like me. -
You are suggesting that I am a novice and need "guidance" and while I admit that "I have promises to keep and miles to go before I sleep... and miles to go before I sleep..." I would like to think that I am no novice. But your offer is appreciated.Originally posted by paperflower:just a sharing. theravada tradition would be your level of "comfort" reasonably conducive to your understandings. give it an open try..... -
there are bound to have bad people who breach the laws and good people who abide the laws - these are inevitable. then again at the end of the day it all boils down to who? - self. before one understands the inherently non-existent of self, one should also be aware of such "self" that is also capable of manifesting into many wholesome goodness or unwholesome badness.Originally posted by casino_king:Even though many will argue that laws are more effective to "make this world we share and live in to be harmonious peaceful or disharmonious chaotic. "
come to think of it, if you are a leader of a country, would you wish to be in a position where many lives are killed or destroyed just because of you? would you like to have that kind of cause & effect?
laws can maintain the order and it cannot maintain the order as well. so, afterall it is one who first have to tame oneself first before there is harmony in oneself and with others. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
the reason is not becos they are fantasy. but becos, it's off their range of understanding. like a kindergarten/childish understanding ppl don't get what the mature/wise university ppl are saying.
Your unfounded claims of fantastic abilities of Buddhist are what turns people off... we look at Buddhist and say: Where? Where are all those things they claim they can do or become?
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Goodness and Badness.... think about that. Even better; think of Goodness and Badness not in terms of activities but in terms of relationships.Originally posted by paperflower:there are bound to have bad people who breach the laws and good people who abide the laws - these are inevitable. then again at the end of the day it all boils down to who? - self. before one understands the inherently non-existent of self, one should also be aware of such "self" that is also capable of manifesting into many wholesome goodness or unwholesome badness.
come to think of it, if you are a leader of a country, would you wish to be in a position where many lives are killed or destroyed just because of you? would you like to have that kind of cause & effect?
laws can maintain the order and it cannot maintain the order as well. so, afterall it is one who first have to tame oneself first before there is harmony in oneself and with others.
Cause and Effect... over what time frame? Think about that. The effect you see immediately is not the ultimate effect.
How does a person become tamed? What is become tamed? Think about that. Will the child ever become "tamed" if you stop the child from suffering? -
This is what I mean by having lots of excuses. You need to come to a place of understanding yourself and anticipate what the "seeker" is asking and before you can do that you have to have crossed that path yourself.Originally posted by sinweiy:the reason is not becos they are fantasy. but becos, it's off they range of understanding. like a kindergarten/childish understanding ppl don't get what the mature/wise university ppl are saying.
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in relationship there are activities which has nice good ones & bad unpleasant ones. be it in relationship or any activities involved in daily life, when the self is not at peace, calm and cleared, nothing beneficial can genuinely be accomplished.Originally posted by casino_king:Goodness and Badness.... think about that. Even better; think of Goodness and Badness not in terms of activities but in terms of relationships.
Cause and Effect... over what time frame? Think about that. The effect you see immediately is not the ultimate effect.
How does a person become tamed? What is become tamed? Think about that. Will the child ever become "tamed" if you stop the child from suffering?
cause & effect can be over a time frame of NOW or later on. you could do some "obvious" experiments yourself to personally learn about this cause & effects. whether the effect is immediate or later on, it is still an effect from a cause which is always evolving.... and it is not something ultimate we expecting but it is the nature of it when time ripens.
as for taming.... i'm sure by now you should be able to understand how to go about doing that if you start practicing. a child, like all of us need guidances and it is possible for anyone to be tamed in the most chaotic sufferings. thats when you use wisdom method to apply the teachings, someone there patiently guiding.... and where does all these come from? ... the mind.
and yes the child is possible to become tamed if you stop him/her from suffering. but it is not you stopped his/her suffering, it is you guided him/her to stop the suffering which he/she has to do it personally, even a child. and it is possible. there are many strong willed-power people around even in children too which i personally witness myself and went through when i was a kid. (it is not entirely about "stop" immediately but to ligthen and gradually disassociate and free from sufferings).
when a child is not tamed even when not in sufferings it is just like our mind still wandering about wildly and coming to many thoughts of action. so guidance is needed to consistently remind and train this mind. a parent, a teacher, a friend or someone reliable is important for such support and most importantly for a mature mind is still the oneself.