Buddhism cannot be discussed openly?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for the investigation of phenomena and the acquisition of new knowledge of the natural world, as well as the correction and integration of previous knowledge, based on observable, empirical, measurable evidence, and subject to laws of reasoning.
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Under this definition, then Buddhism CERTAINLY is a Scientific Method. But its techniques are DIFFERENT from those that you more often know. Like I said, don't confuse Biology with Physics, Chemistry with Arts. And also, Buddhism also deals with that which is beyond the 'natural world'."Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural & spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity"
See Buddhism and Science article
-- Albert Einstein [1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press]
"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion which is based on experience, which refuses dogmatism. If there's any religion that would cope the scientific needs it will be BuddhismÂ…"
-- Albert Einstein -
A temple that worships deities is not a Buddhist temple, it is a folks-tradition temple because Buddhists dont worship deities.Originally posted by casino_king:Now I am beginning to think that if I can believe you, Buddhism is similar to Hinduism in that Hinduism claims that the Hindu temples are for the "seekers" who does not know any better and need statues to pray to and "stories" to believe in.
Thus Buddhist temples with the statues of Buddha are meaningless but there for the "seekers" to worship.... and the funeral rituals and chanting for "show."
A monastery is a place where monks and nuns stay. It is also a place for the propagation of Dharma. The propagation of dharma is the most important function of a monastery/dharma centre.
Chanting is one out of the uncountable meditative methods to achieve Samadhi, non-waveredness of the mind. When a person is dying, it is most important for a person who knows the dharma, preferably a venerable, to speak the dharma of Emptiness, Impermanence to the dying so that he can let go of all his attachments and attain peace of mind. This is the most important thing. So the venerables usually advise people not to cry but chant Buddha Names/Mantras instead because crying will invoke strong emotional disturbance on the dying person. -
After all that postings and yet you do not get it... I am sure that there are lots of "evidence" out there... you were at the Christian thread. "Evidence" is not good enough. It must be credible evidence. Logic is not good enough, it must be good logic.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I had - in the previous topic. A buddhist does not however, dwell on such things.
See: amazing abilities by concentration - not a Buddhist website, but more towards Hinduism and hindu meditative techniques - as Buddhists generally do not promote developing such abilities. But the website provides valuable insights.
What is good evidence and good logic?
see:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
as long as you cling on to pseudo evidence and run of the mill logical reasoning, your Buddhism will always be at a novice level. -
Yes. Buddhism does have good evidence, the evidence is in the people.Originally posted by casino_king:After all that postings and yet you do not get it... I am sure that there are lots of "evidence" out there... you were at the Christian thread. "Evidence" is not good enough. It must be credible evidence. Logic is not good enough, it must be good logic.
What is good evidence and good logic?
see:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
as long as you cling on to pseudo evidence and run of the mill logical reasoning, your Buddhism will always be at a novice level.
Buddhism is a religion of the people, by the people, for the people. - Ajahn Brahmavamso
By the path of Buddha, you will realise and see for yourself what was being said, and you will BE the evidence.
Buddhist logic is good. In fact Buddha did provide quite good logical reasonings. Not only logical, it is systematic.
Buddhism also provides a Systematic way of experiencing reality. What I meant by systematic and scientific - for example, in modern science, we will say: Given any event E1, there is an Event E2 that follows E1 after time interval T1, we can say that E1 is the cause of E2.... the causality aspect, this is, that is.. this exists, that exists. Smile Now, compare it with Buddhism - the teaching that started more than 2500 years ago. We learn about the 12 Links of Interdependant Origination, etc. By 'reversing' and eliminating the Interdependant Origination Links of Origination one may again arrive at the point where there is no more trace of ignorance. Buddha's method of teaching is very systematic throughout. It also ensures no confusion among practitioners and that everyone will be able to arrive at the same grounds at the end of their path. -
No matter how good is your logic or evidence, those with dogmatism will never accept it. This line - I have repeated over and over, and explained it quite well, I believe.Originally posted by casino_king:After all that postings and yet you do not get it... I am sure that there are lots of "evidence" out there... you were at the Christian thread. "Evidence" is not good enough. It must be credible evidence. Logic is not good enough, it must be good logic.
The methods used to gain insights in the spiritual world is not by what we understand as (Modern) Scientific Method, because our mundane world's knowledge of the Science does NOT include dealing with spirituality - but of the material world. The Scientists know little about the nature of consciousness, so little that they can neither refute nor assert anything regarding it. So far they have not disproven anything taught by Buddha. The studies done have positive results. In fact I have already given you quite a couple of URLs in the previous post - have you read them?
But no matter how much studies and research - is it able to convince people from other faiths? Especially in the field of 'Spirituality'. Maybe not. Many ppl, including Atheists, or from other Faiths, will have trouble accepting these truths (i.e Darwin's theory of evolution?). That is because of their dogmatism, lack of open mindedness. Prove is already out there - but if you are dogmatic, you will never be able to accept it. The ultimate proof that will clear ALL doubts, not even single one remaining, is through Enlightenment itself. Prior to that it is still OK to have doubts, as long as your doubt does not become a Fetter and Obstruction to your path. -
More from the Scientific Method webpage:
* Consistent. Generates no obvious logical contradictions, and 'saves the phenomena', being consistent with observation.
* Parsimonious. Economical in the number of assumptions and hypothetical entities.
* Pertinent. Describes and explains observed phenomena.
* Falsifiable and testable. See Falsifiability and Testability.
* Reproducible. Makes predictions that can be tested by any observer, with trials extending indefinitely into the future.
* Correctable and dynamic. Subject to modification as new observations are made.
* Integrative, robust, and corrigible. Subsumes previous theories as approximations, and allows possible subsumption by future theories. See Correspondence principle
* Provisional or tentative. Does not assert the absolute certainty of the theory.
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So far, Buddhism fulfills ALL of it
Being a contemplative system Free from dogmatism but self-realisation, self-observation. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
meditation is good? did u investigate yourself first? or the media said so showing some chart/figure, and u blindly believe without investigate yourself? 'brainwash' so easily? pls show us evidence that meditation is good. (just a taste of your own medicine.)
would think that meditation is helpful as there is research done on meditation and found that it helps the human mind.
Specifically, meditation helps the mind to learn concentration and when it comes to activities where concentration is required, like studying, then students who learnt meditation made statistically significant improvements.
If Buddhism stops there, then there is no problem. Buddhism then goes on to say that meditation will bring you into a state of "samadhi" and all sorts of what can be described as supernatural happenings take place.
Not acceptable without evidence.
science is still young. slowly there'll be inline with Buddha's discovery. we only used 5% of our brain. Buddha is an ENlightened being which have open 100% of it. don't keep harping about science as we all know science, in itself, is also not precise. every time there's new discovery to overturn the old theory. but not for Buddha's discovery, it's complete.
btw..."samadhi" is sanskirt, an ancient Indo-Aryan language , meaning concentration....see same thing.
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Do read this very interesting topic in our forum: The Universe as a Hologram - Holographic Reality - which contains evidence that proves the fundamental and important Buddhist tenets.
Apart from that, it also deals with the possibility of 'paranormal' and other 'spiritual' experiences.
I will try to get the book when I'm free.
The book is an interesting read and details out the researches and struggles of how reputable quantum scientists, neurosurgeons, hard science biologists, pychologists, medical doctors, zoologists and even paranormal psychologists came to believe this holographic model of the universe. - Thusness
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http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060922583/103-3361844-3599037?v=glance&n=283155
I've read The Holographic Universe often, and have gained new insights into the nature of consciousness and reality from its riches every time. I consider it to be author Michael Talbot's most important work, as well as one of the best books ever written on the subject of so-called paranormal phenomenon.
Talbot's fascination for finding scientific explanations for psychic and paranormal activity began when he noticed objects moving inexplicably around him, regardless where he lived. He would sometimes awaken to find socks draped on his houseplants, and occasionally found objects in his apartment that he knew for a fact had been hundreds of miles away. His real-life experiences with such shifts in reality combined with his training in physics led him to explore possible reasons for these and other mysterious happenings.
Talbot begins his book with an excellent introduction to physicist David Bohm's concept of the holographic model of the universe, and combines the physics model with Karl Pribram's work on the holographic model of the brain. The result is a marvelous description of a non-local, interconnected and alive universe that moves in response to our every thought and feeling.
I am very impressed with the clarity with which Talbot presents the concept of a holographic universe and how various paranormal phenomenon can be explained within that model. Talbot's discussion is comprehensive, fascinating, clear, and packed with relevant and intriguing stories of paranormal phenomenon. Out of body experiences (OBEs), near death experiences (NDEs), auric readings, psychokinesis, acupuncture, X-ray vision, healing, and psychic readings are all described and considered for placement into the holographic model.
Talbot presents a wealth of relevant research studies and scientific theories from David Bohm, Helmut Schmidt, Marilyn Schlitz, Robert Monroe, Charles Tart, Larry Dossey, Paul Davies, PMH Atwater, Ian Stevenson, Fred Alan Wolf, Harold Puthoff, Russell Targ, Lyall Watson, Stanislav Grof, and many others.
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This is one of the most provocative books I have read in years. In the first few chapters Mr. Talbot describes the emerging holographic paradigm in science, drawing on David Bohm's work in quantum physics and Karl Pribam's work in neuroscience. I found both descriptions to be fascinating, and especially enjoyed the historical context for the work of these two seminal thinkers. As a person with a master's degree in neuroscience and chaos/complexity theory, I found a couple of his simplifications misleading, but would give him high marks for his overall comprehension of the conclusions of Pribam and his followers.
The remaining 2/3 of the book is a discussion of how the holographic paradigm may provide a rational basis for interpreting a wide variety of phenomenon located around the fringes of established science. He looks at everything from strange historical "miracles" like stigmata and appearances of the Virgin Mary to modern psychic abilities and LSD experiences, from out-of-body and near-death-experiences to UFO abductions. In addition, he compares language used in the modern scientific discussion of holography with the language used by ancient mystical traditions.
Mr. Talbot's writing style is unusually clear and lucid. All of this makes for a highly engaging book. It kept me up late every night for more than a week. I am a person who has had an OBE/NDE (out-of-body, near-death-experience), and can tell you that his description of such events is an astoundingly accurate portrayal of what I experienced.
I am also a scientist, and know that most of my highly rational, empirical colleages would have trouble accepting a majority of Mr. Talbot's conclusions. This work addresses something so completely out of the realm of everyday experience for most people, and probes a world that is normally invisible to the five senses. Hence, objective, empirical science -- as defined by a conventional theorist or practicing technician -- simply cannot address these experiences. They are outside the range of focus of the tool that Western minds currently rely on.
The service that Mr. Talbot provides is a challenge to rethink the conventional definition of science so that it can take into account a much wider range of human experience. What he argues for is the acceptance, as valid scientific data, of the experiences of individual humans, across cultures and throughout history, that are remarkably consistent with one another. These experiences address aspects of reality that are invisible to the skeptical eye, but become obvious to the person who chooses to develop other forms of perception.
As a person who was unwittingly thrown into an OBE/NDE experience, I am naturally inclined to read a book like this one with an open mind, and felt immensely rewarded for doing so. However, if I had reviewed the same book before having my own personal experience of some of the phenomena it describes, I would have reviewed it as a new-age excursion into a realm of fantasy. I am completely sympathetic to some of the reviewers who see it that way, and respectfully disagree.
I believe there is an extraordinary synthesis happening among the realms of human experience, one that can validate each individual's story, however unusual, and also one that honors all the different ways of knowing. I see Mr. Talbot's work as one of the more important bridges yet constructed between traditional science and spirituality, between rational discourse about repeatable, empirically verifiable phenomenon and the quirky, esoteric or mythological elements of personal experience that actually define most people's experience of reality. This book is a "must read" for any passionate seeker of truth.[/url] -
Originally posted by sinweiy:
I beg to differ. I have done meditation myself. Many claims about what meditation can or cannot do I observed as mental phenomena. Stuff that happens in your own head and have no effect on the physical world. That is to say, fantasy, imaginary and "all in the head."
meditation is good? did u investigate yourself first? or the media said so showing some chart/figure, and u blindly believe without investigate yourself? 'brainwash' so easily? pls show us evidence that meditation is good. (just a taste of your own medicine.)
science is still young. slowly there'll be inline with Buddha's discovery. we only used 5% of our brain. Buddha is an ENlightened being which have open 100% of it. don't keep harping about science as we all know science, in itself, is also not precise. every time there's new discovery to overturn the old theory. but not for Buddha's discovery, it's complete.
btw..."samadhi" is sanskirt, an ancient Indo-Aryan language , meaning [b]concentration....see same thing.
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I spoke to an american who did religious studies at american university and he decided to enrol as a monk in a Thai monastry. He was a monk for 4 years. He was the most polite, calm, quiet individual I have met so far. I think it was his training as a monk that modified his behavior to become like that. I met another ang mo monk teaching "meditation" techniques in a fitness club. He was also like that, calm, plolite soft spoken.
I was having lunch with the american and I mentioned that the claims that were made and are made for meditations are "mental phenomena."
For someone who was calm, soft spoken and polite, he suddenly lit up and you can see it on his face.
It was like, exactly.... This is also what he discovered in his 4 years in the monastry.
I have no doubt that mediation is useful and has wide ranging benefits including health benefits.
I would now like to remind you that even Roman Catholics meditate. They meditate but do not make fantastic claims regarding samadhi like the Buddhists.
I know that in a Catholic Church more than 50 yers ago, a man who is not a Catholic goes to the Catholic church in Ipoh everyday and attend the meditation session. The one who told me that said that he lived into his nineties and thinks that it was because he did all those meditating in the Catholic church. -
If you do not like the word fantasy, imagination and delusion... then I will introduce to you a new word: speculation.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Do read this very interesting topic in our forum: The Universe as a Hologram - Holographic Reality - which contains evidence that proves the fundamental and important Buddhist tenets.
Apart from that, it also deals with the possibility of 'paranormal' and other 'spiritual' experiences.
I will try to get the book when I'm free.
[/i][/url]
Without any real evidence, they are all speculation and people should then say: hmmmm intresting and walk away.
You see, the gamblers are all like that, they speculate about this and that regarding gambling and act on their speculations to their detriment.
i am not asking you to give up Buddhism if it makes you happy, I am just pointing out to you that what you believe in is based on speculation... -
Originally posted by casino_king:
because I believe in buddhism and I want to liberate from samsara.
alamak? this is a forum is it not? or am I wrong? is this some sort of newspaper? or is this a place for discussion? or is this a place to discuss only about sex? please lah this is a forum for people discuss issues that they are interested in.... I am interested in religion... not just Buddhism.
I want to know why people "believe" and so I launch a discussion. If they have things to say and I have thigs to say, then we continue.... if not we stop, no harm done... the objective of having a forum is achieved.
OK why are [b]YOU a Buddhist?[/b] -
I have the feeling that because after 2550 years there is no evidence that anybody had been delivered from samsara; neither will you be.Originally posted by justdoit77:because I believe in buddhism and I want to liberate from samsara.
Why not just make the best of it? Why want to be "delivered?" -
if folks are happy with "speculation" so what's that to you? and these folks are HAPPY speculating....Originally posted by casino_king:i am not asking you to give up Buddhism if it makes you happy, I am just pointing out to you that what you believe in is based on speculation...
....again, what's that to you? -
Nothing.... so?Originally posted by Chin Eng:if folks are happy with "speculation" so what's that to you? and these folks are HAPPY speculating....
....again, what's that to you? -
Originally posted by casino_king:
there's documentated records, The Record of Sages of Pure Land , a three volume record compiled in the Ch'ing Dynasty (until NOW , even attended one), contained many cases of old masters throughout history who practiced the Pure Land School of Buddhism and were reborn into the Pure Land.
I have the feeling that because after 2550 years there is no evidence that anybody had been delivered from samsara; neither will you be.
Why not just make the best of it? Why want to be "delivered?"
- shariras/relics appearing after cremation, is one of the physical evidence.
- and normally when people die, the body is stiff, but not for real practitioner of samathi/concentration(perfect mindfulness of Amitabha Buddha), they are incredibly soft and serene in appearance.
- and real practitioner are able to foretell the time of their passings.
- and during the passing, people in the ceremony could see Amitabha Buddha coming to welcome them, hear delightful music in the air, and some others could smell soothing fragrance in the room (which i did during a practitioner passing).
we even have video recording, ..and not one but many , yet of the similar phenomena listed.
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Can you explain to me why these "evidences" are not acceptable to most people on earth and only acceptable to Buddhists?Originally posted by sinweiy:there's documentated records, The Record of Sages of Pure Land , a three volume record compiled in the Ch'ing Dynasty (until NOW , even attended one), contained many cases of old masters throughout history who practiced the Pure Land School of Buddhism and were reborn into the Pure Land.
- shariras/relics appearing after cremation, is one of the physical evidence.
- and normally when people die, the body is stiff, but not for real practitioner of samathi/concentration(perfect mindfulness of Amitabha Buddha), they are incredibly soft.
- and real practitioner are able to foretell the time of their passings.
- and during the passing, people in the ceremony could see Amitabha Buddha coming to welcome them, hear delightful music in the air, and some others could smell soothing fragrance in the room (which i did during a practitioner passing).
we even have video recording, ..and not one but many , yet of the similar phenomena listed.
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Originally posted by casino_king:
how long they practice? few hours or days and back to work wouldn't do the trick.
I would now like to remind you that even Roman Catholics meditate. They meditate but do not make fantastic claims regarding samadhi like the Buddhists.
the main purpose of mediation is to tame the mind, and not let the wandering thoughts go about like untame animals. can one tame the mind in our stressful society? difficult. spiritual abilities can only be achieved if one can really go into the remote/mountains retreats for few 10 years or so where they detached from worldly 'polutions'. it's all concentration which Buddha did to seek the truth of reality and open the full ability of the mind. the mind if open can be indeed very powerful. it's an all-knowing mind.
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If what you say is true, surely after 2550 years, there must be lots of people who had doen that... go into retreat for "10 years or so where they detached from worldly 'polutions'. "Originally posted by sinweiy:how long they practice? few hours or days and back to work wouldn't do the trick.
the main purpose of mediation is to tame the mind, and not let the wandering thoughts go about like untame animals. can one tame the mind in our stressful society? difficult. spiritual abilities can only be achieved if one can really go into the remote/mountains retreats for few 10 years or so where they detached from worldly 'polutions'. it's all concentration which Buddha did to seek the truth of reality and open the full ability of the mind. the mind if open can be indeed very powerful. it's an all-knowing mind.
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Where are these "people" ?????
Where is the evidence???? -
Originally posted by casino_king:
becoz of a transformation of era, becoz people are grown up with education where such things are beyond their common physic understanding, hence skepticism.
Can you explain to me why these "evidences" are not acceptable to most people on earth and only acceptable to Buddhists?
but that's not to blame ppl. don't worry, scientists are slowing doing research on it. heard of 'water knows' research and astonishing discoveries? it's according to DHarma.
http://www.globaldialoguecenter.com/gallery/exhibits/wisdom_water/index.shtml
these kind of things (special abilities) are very common in very ancient time(magic era). they don't need telescope to view the cosmo like we do. like Buddha could see 84000 mircoscopic bacteria without the use of mircoscope. these are all the mind, the six sense can do. u find artifacts that are dug up shows that people of the past have their own 'technology' which are really advance.
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You think that ppl are not interested to be able to "see 84000 mircoscopic bacteria without the use of mircoscope."Originally posted by sinweiy:becoz of a transformation of era, becoz people are grown up with education where such things are beyond their common physic understanding, hence skepticism.
but that's not to blame ppl. don't worry, scientists are slowing doing research on it. heard of water knows experiments? it's according to DHarma.
http://www.globaldialoguecenter.com/gallery/exhibits/wisdom_water/index.shtml
these kind of things (special abilities) are very common in very ancient time(magic era). they don't need telescope to view the cosmo like we do. like Buddha could see 84000 mircoscopic bacteria without the use of mircoscope. these are all the mind, the six sense can do. u find artifacts that are dug up shows that people of the past have their own 'technology' which are really advance.
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Please show us 1 person on earth right now who can do that? -
Originally posted by casino_king:
these people 'yu shi wu zhen' (don't want to involve in society). how to find? we have to go to them. moreover there's an explosion of urbanization and capitalism, material needs. there's less and less people instead of more. these are all predictable in Buddha's texts. an advance of materialism but a degeneration of inner peace.
If what you say is true, surely after 2550 years, there must be lots of people who had doen that... go into retreat for "10 years or so where they detached from worldly 'polutions'. "
Where are these "people" ????? Where is the evidence????
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...sooooOriginally posted by casino_king:Nothing.... so?
why the impassioning drive to get your "beliefs" across?
hmmm.... I sense a deeper attachment you have to religion and gambling than you care to admit. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
becoz is difficult for any ppl on earth to really detach from worldly things and to concentrate the mind. even if have, you also don't know where, in which remote moutain or jungle...maybe in india, china or Tibet maybe.
You think that ppl are not interested to be able to "see 84000 mircoscopic bacteria without the use of mircoscope."
Please show us 1 person on earth right now who can do that?
we ppl have to earn a living, work, pay taxes, pay loans etcs.. for all one's life you are but in dept with govenment. where's the ease?
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So the correct response is when, don't have, cannot find or whatever the reason, then we take it as "speculation" or fantasy.... it would be most absurd to chase after an impossible fantasy....Originally posted by sinweiy:these people 'yu shi wu zhen' (don't want to involve in society). how to find? we have to go to them. moreover there's an explosion of urbanization and capitalism, material needs. there's less and less people instead of more. these are all predictable in Buddha's texts. an advance of materialism but a degeneration of inner peace.
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That is why I find religious people so similar to gamblers... gamblers also tell you things like, "you cannot guarantee that the next trip to the casino I will not win big...." or "when I win big I will stop..." or "I did something wrong the last time and this time I will not repeat the same mistake."
so they try and try again and refuse to give up.... they should look at the evidence and the evidence says that based on mathematics and probability, you will end up a loser. So if you want to gamble, only gamble with money that you want to throw away. But also beware that you can become addicted if you start to gamble.
You are exactly the same. This is so serious I am having a headache. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
on the contrary, your gamblers have No evidences, but we have evidence.
So the correct response is when, don't have, cannot find or whatever the reason, then we take it as "speculation" or fantasy.... it would be most absurd to chase after an impossible fantasy....
That is why I find religious people so similar to gamblers... gamblers also tell you things like, "you cannot guarantee that the next trip to the casino I will not win big...." or "when I win big I will stop..." or "I did something wrong the last time and this time I will not repeat the same mistake."
so they try and try again and refuse to give up.... they should look at the evidence and the evidence says that based on mathematics and probability, you will end up a loser. So if you want to gamble, only gamble with money that you want to throw away. But also beware that you can become addicted if you start to gamble.
You are exactly the same. This is so serious I am having a headache.[/b]
evidence that is not people telling you. such evidence are 'leading' evidence. true evidence is when u yourself investigate and experience it oneself...that's true evidence.
and pls differientiate blind faith buddhist from real understanding buddhists.
see not the cover but the content.
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