Buddhism cannot be discussed openly?
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To add on to my previous post on Buddhism and Science on 28 April 2006 · 03:30 PM -
....Nowadays physicists explain phenomena do not exist objectively in and of themselves but exists in the context of involvement with an observer. I feel that the relation between matter and consciousness is a place where eastern philosophy and western science could meet. I think this would be a happy marriage with no divorce. If we work along the lines of a joint effort by Buddhist scholars with experience in meditation and unbiased physicists to engage in a deeper research in the relation between matter and consciousness, we may find beautiful things which may be helpful. Also those scientists working on the human brain working on the field of neurology could benefit from the Buddhist explanations about consciousness. Some time ago, I asked a neurologist how memory functions. He reported they still have not found a concrete explanation. So in this field too we can work together. Some western medical professionals are also interested in curing certain illnesses through meditation. This is another interesting topic for joint project. Because of Buddhism's emphasis on self-creation, there is no Creator deity. Thus some consider it strictly speaking not a religion. A western scholar told me Buddhism is not a religion. It is a kind of science of mind. In this sense Buddhism does not belong to the category of religion. I consider this to be unfortunate. But in some sense Buddhism becomes closer to science. However from the scientists' viewpoint, Buddhism is a spiritual path. It is unfortunate that we do not seem to belong to science either. Buddhism thereby belongs to neither religion nor pure science. But this provides us an opportunity to make a bridge between faith and science. This is why I believe in the future we will work at bringing these two forces together. The majority of people ignore religion. But among those who do not, there is on one side of group who are experiencing the values of a spiritual path. On the other is a group who are denying any value to religion. As a result there is constant conflict between these factions. If one way or another we can help bring these two forces closer, it would be worthwhile....
- The Dalai Lama, Meaning of Life 3-4
Pls also see: NeuroScience and Buddhism -
Let me also remind you that Buddhism has never been contradictory to Modern Science:Originally posted by neutral_onliner:Buddhism [b]never found the need to give new interpretations to its teachings. Newly verified scientific discoveries never contradict the teachings of the Buddha as the method and teachings of Buddhism are scientific. BuddhismÂ’s principles can be maintained under any circumstances without changing its basic ideas. The understanding capacity of the value of these religious ideas may diminish and disappear from ManÂ’s Mind. And Man may experience the difficulty of practicing these principles in a corrupted society. However, the value of the BuddhaÂ’s teaching will be appreciated by every cultured and understanding person at any time. As complimented by Albert Einstein (Physicist and Mathematician), winner of the Nobel Prize, who is popularly regarded as the most outstanding scientist of the twentieth century,
"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend a personal God and avoid dogmas and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual and a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description... If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs, it would be Buddhism."
Mi oso tired of awakening narrow minded pple like you
[/b][/quote]
[quote]Originally posted by concerned_man:
hmm....
I still stand for this:
To bend our faith to fit the facts than to bend the facts to fit the faith.
Amitabha -
I think I answered your question in EH... if you are the same person.Originally posted by Chin Eng:I also hope that when you come back, you'd given some thoughts to my question. It's even a simpler question that the one you asked, surely a person with such a knowledgeable background is able to give an answer to this one?
In case you forget: the question is: do you believe that there is a supernatural realm, and if you do, are you also delusional?
For the benefit of the others the answer was:
:Originally posted by Chin Eng:
I think you really need to be spoonfed otherwise you will not have any idea.
....but you want answers from other people yet you refuse to give an answer to a simple question....
Supernatural or otherwise, if you can provide good evidence of any supernatural claims I will be the first in line to believe it.
If you are talking about supernatural claims made by your pastor or your monk... you know the answer. -
humour me.... please spoon-feed me. Do you, Casino-King, believe in the supernatural realm?
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Take shariras for example... pure speculation.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I dont think anything I have posted so far is against the 'Scientific Method'.
Take shariras for example. It is a FACT that shariras exist, and if you have missed the great Singapore Buddha Tooth relics exhibition in Singapore Expo a few years ago, which not only housed Buddha's tooth relics but also uncountable other miraculous and colourful relics, I think you missed something great.
Scientific explanation? I dont think there is scientific explanation yet, but like i said, this is NOT what Buddhists are concerned about. Whether we understand scientifically the miraculous workings of shariras, it does not affect our spiritual enlightenment.
May you be enlightened.
"but also uncountable other miraculous and colourful relics" .... speculative and unproven. -
I seriously think that there is a problem with you. I give you the answer and yet you keep harassing me. The answer again is:Originally posted by Chin Eng:humour me.... please spoon-feed me. Do you, Casino-King, believe in the supernatural realm?
I think you really need to be spoonfed otherwise you will not have any idea.
Supernatural or otherwise, if you can provide good evidence of any supernatural claims I will be the first in line to believe it.
If you are talking about supernatural claims made by your pastor or your monk... you know the answer.
This is the 3rd time, mind you. -
Speculative? Why?Originally posted by casino_king:Take shariras for example... pure speculation.
"but also uncountable other miraculous and colourful relics" .... speculative and unproven.
It is a FACT that they exist. Most Buddhists have seen Shariras before. There was a huge exhibition at Singapore Expo just on Shariras a few years ago.
Speculative?
That's like saying "Oh I doubt my grandma existed."
As for the miraculous features of shariras, it is NOT speculative also. It is also a FACT that these miraculous features existed and can be observed by EVERYONE. Have you also seen the video on the Hair sharira?
Shariras are only produced on a Buddhist practitioner. It is true that many practitioners including in the modern times does HAVE shariras upon their death. Doesn't have to be monks too. Lay Buddhists who practise well will have shariras - and how much depends on their level of practise. So although it cannot be said to be very common, it also cannot be said to be rare as many many people does produce shariras. Non-practitioners do not have shariras, and shariras cannot be destroyed by any means of heating, hammering, etc. It is known to be indestructible. And all the other miraculous features - multiplying, enlarging, totally different colours seen by different people, etc etc, all these are already mentioned in the previous post. -
Originally posted by casino_king:I seriously think that there is a problem with you. I give you the answer and yet you keep harassing me. The answer again is:.... so I am harassing you? and you are not harassing religious folks? that's a laugh!
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Do you understand what the word "speculation" means?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Speculative? Why?
It is a FACT that they exist. Most Buddhists have seen Shariras before. There was a huge exhibition at Singapore Expo just on Shariras a few years ago.
Speculative?
That's like saying "Oh I doubt my grandma existed."
As for the miraculous features of shariras, it is NOT speculative also. It is also a FACT that these miraculous features existed and can be observed by EVERYONE. Have you also seen the video on the Hair sharira?
Shariras are only produced on a Buddhist practitioner. It is true that many practitioners including in the modern times does HAVE shariras upon their death. Doesn't have to be monks too. Lay Buddhists who practise well will have shariras - and how much depends on their level of practise. So although it cannot be said to be very common, it also cannot be said to be rare as many many people does produce shariras. Non-practitioners do not have shariras, and shariras cannot be destroyed by any means of heating, hammering, etc. It is known to be indestructible. And all the other miraculous features - multiplying, enlarging, totally different colours seen by different people, etc etc, all these are already mentioned in the previous post.
Do you understand what the scientific method is?
When you look at certain phenomena, like Shariras for example... you begin by speculating what they are.... you do not stop there. Otherwise it remains speculation. -
Like I already said - Buddhists does not even speculate or bother to find out how the miraculous features worked because it does not help in our enlightenment. This is not the concerns of a Buddhist. This is the job for the scientists.Originally posted by casino_king:Do you understand what the word "speculation" means?
Do you understand what the scientific method is?
When you look at certain phenomena, like Shariras for example... you begin by speculating what they are.... you do not stop there. Otherwise it remains speculation. -
You as a Buddhist makes a claim based on speculation. How do you expect any thinking person to accept your claims without any proofs?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Like I already said - Buddhists does not even speculate or bother to find out how the miraculous features worked because it does not help in our enlightenment. This is not the concerns of a Buddhist. This is the job for the scientists.
Why in the world would you accept your own claims without having any proofs? -
Like I said, Buddhists did NOT speculate at all. How come I already said so many times but you keep repeating that I speculated? All I said were FACTS.Originally posted by casino_king:You as a Buddhist makes a claim based on speculation. How do you expect any thinking person to accept your claims without any proofs?
Why in the world would you accept your own claims without having any proofs?
If you want to say that I speculated, you must at least explain how did I speculated. -
Take Shariras. Where is the proof to explain all the claims you make regarding Shariras?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Like I said, Buddhists did NOT speculate at all. How come I already said so many times but you keep repeating that I speculated? All I said were FACTS.
If you want to say that I speculated, you must at least explain how did I speculated. -
There is no need for me to proof - it is a fact that they existed, if you do not believe, go ask any Buddhists who have witnessed those various kinds of shariras themselves.Originally posted by casino_king:Take Shariras. Where is the proof to explain all the claims you make regarding Shariras?
There is no need for me to proof things to the blind. If you dont believe, go ask around, they will tell you the same things.
There is no need for me to proof a fact - like - whether your grandma existed? -
I am asking for proof regarding the speculations you made about "shariras." I have no doubt that they exist.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:There is no need for me to proof - it is a fact that they existed, if you do not believe, go ask any Buddhists who have witnessed those various kinds of shariras themselves.
There is no need for me to proof things to the blind. If you dont believe, go ask around, they will tell you the same things.
There is no need for me to proof a fact - like - whether your grandma existed? -
And you have not yet told me what I have speculated about shariras.Originally posted by casino_king:I am asking for proof regarding the speculations you made about "shariras." I have no doubt that they exist.
If something can be observed by everyone, it is NOT a speculation, it is a fact.
And by accepting that Shariras exist, you also accept that Shariras are produced only by Buddhist practitioners because only Buddhist practitioners produce shariras. Ordinary people do not have them. -
I got to go. Let the other forummers talk to you. I've got work to do
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Speculation number one: that "only Buddhist practitioners produce shariras. Ordinary people do not have them."Originally posted by An Eternal Now:And you have not yet told me what I have speculated about shariras.
If something can be observed by everyone, it is NOT a speculation, it is a fact.
And by accepting that Shariras exist, you also accept that Shariras are produced only by Buddhist practitioners because only Buddhist practitioners produce shariras. Ordinary people do not have them.
What are Shariras? Not investigated... speculation.
Why only Buddhist practitioners produce shariras? Not investigated... speculation.
All the other claims regarding Shariras? Not investigated... speculation. -
For your case, I seriously suggest that we end this discussion right now. It is also pointless for you to debate on something that you are not sure of or have no knowledge about - i.e Shariras. All you have to do is to follow the guidelines of the Buddha to the Kalamas. Dogmatism? Blind Faith? The Kalamas are Disillusioned. I am also starting to see how it is wrong to debate in this way because people's ignorance is endless and a person will never see light when his mind is delusioned. It is only through the learning of dharma and practise of dharma that they will gradually understand. A buddhist also do not need to be concerned about the supernatural - what is more important is your buddhist cultivation right now, and living a virtuous and wholesome life with lasting hapiness.Originally posted by casino_king:
Speculation number one: that "only Buddhist practitioners produce shariras. Ordinary people do not have them."[/quote]
Not speculated, but it is a TRUTH because there really are nobody else in the world who have produced shariras except Buddhist - and not just any Buddhists, but real Buddhist practitioners who cultivated well. If there were non-practitioners who produced shariras, it would have been known. So far you never heard of anyone else from other religions, other priests, who produced Shariras. It's also a fact that is observable.What are Shariras? Not investigated... speculation.
Are you saying that Buddhists, having observed, kept, revered shariras for 2500 years don't know what the hell they are? That's like living with your grandma for many years and someone tells you, 'What is your grandma? You have not investigated, and she is merely a speculation.'Why only Buddhist practitioners produce shariras? Not investigated... speculation.
In terms of Buddhist practise, Buddha already gave explanation.
In terms of Modern science, I don't know whether they have investigated, but if they had, then there were no results. I don't think the scientists are willing to spend effort to researching on supernatural that they have no confidence in finding results.All the other claims regarding Shariras? Not investigated... speculation.
Like I said, something that can be observed cannot be considered a speculation but it is a fact.
Investigation on how they work scientifically? Let the scientists do. It doesn't help us in our enlightenment.
And also, I'm starting to see simplified's point. That it is useless to debate with you. Because you have dogmatism and even when facts are presented to you, you continue to argue in such a way that there it is endless and pointless.Originally posted by simplified:
even if one place a pot of gold infront of him..he sees as a shit.
facts/reason dun work on aggressor like him..common sense will do.
he sees himself as the winner no matter wats the situation.
he challenge juz to prove he is 'right'.
he thought by 'winning' , he feel his existence
it is usually those ppl wo feel highly insecure in urslf who will be out to challenge ppl in 'viewin life'.
he lives in his world
then let him be the 'king' of his world
for he fear to even step out from his tiny world
he will be sinkin in his fantasy world.
one sees himslf as the hero
standin tall in the zero
whether its zero or hero
time will tell tis fellow
eh bro post in aunt agony lar..i can help u in ur personality crisis ..shed some light for free if u wan..provided i got extra time or u.
no substance even if go double digit..nah.
Third post:
[quote].....Conviction in a belief can take various forms. One form reasons according to Dhamma, while another form is contrary to the Dhamma. This second way is heedless, it is a foolhardy understanding, micchaditthi, wrong view. One doesn't listen to anybody else.
Take the example of Dighanakha the Brahmin. This Brahmin only believed himself, he wouldn't believe others. At one time when the Buddha was resting at Rajagaha, Dighanakha went to listen to his teaching. Or you might say that Dighanakha went to teach the Buddha, because he was intent on expounding his own views ...
"I am of the view that nothing suits me."
This was his view. The Buddha listened to DighanakhaÂ’s view and then answered,
"Brahmin, this view of yours doesn't suit you either." When the Buddha had answered in this way, Dighanakha was stumped. He didn't know what to say. The Buddha explained in many ways, till the Brahmin understood. He stopped to reflect and saw...
"Hmm, this view of mine isn't right."
On hearing the Buddha's answer the Brahmin abandoned his conceited views and immediately saw the truth. He changed right then and there, turning right around, just as one would invert one's hand. He praised the teaching of the Buddha thus:
"Listening to the Blessed One's teaching, my mind was illumined, just as one living in darkness might perceive light. My mind is like an overturned basin which has been up righted, like a man who has been lost and finds the way."
Now at that time a certain knowledge arose within his mind, within that mind which had been up righted. Wrong view vanished and right view took its place. Darkness disappeared and light arose.
The Buddha declared that the Brahmin Dighanakha was one who had opened the Dhamma Eye. Previously Dighanakha clung to his own views and had no intention of changing them. But when he heard the Buddha's teaching his mind saw the truth, he saw that his clinging to those views was wrong. When the
right understanding arose he was able to perceive his previous understanding as mistaken, so he compared his experience with a person living in darkness who had found light. This is how it is. At that time the Brahmin Dighanakha transcended his wrong view.........But no matter how much studies and research - is it able to convince people from other faiths? Especially in the field of 'Spirituality'. Maybe not. Many ppl, including Atheists, or from other Faiths, will have trouble accepting these truths (i.e Darwin's theory of evolution?). That is because of their dogmatism, lack of open mindedness. Prove is already out there - but if you are dogmatic, you will never be able to accept it. The ultimate proof that will clear ALL doubts, not even single one remaining, is through Enlightenment itself. Prior to that it is still OK to have doubts, as long as your doubt does not become a Fetter and Obstruction to your path..... -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
I am not an enlightened person, or a Buddha who can open your dharma eye to remove the root of delusion.
....Dogmas - religious, political, scientific - arise out of the erroneous belief that thought can encapsulate reality or the truth. Dogmas are collective conceptual prisons. And the strange thing is that people love their prison cells becuase they give them a sense of security and a false sense of "I know."
Nothing has inflicted more suffering on humanity than its dogmas. It is true that every dogma crumbles sooner or later, because reality will eventually disclose its falseness; however, unless the basic delusion of it is seen for what it is, it will be replaced by others.
What is this basic delusion? Identification with thought......
- Eckhart Tolle, Stillness Speaks
In this case, it is not a religious dogma, but the dogma ridden with scepticism that nothing spiritual exist in the world. That is a very limited viewpoint and is because a person cannot transcend mundane logic - much like those 400 years ago who would not have believed if you were to tell them the Earth is round.
Lastly, because I can sense that there is some attachment to scepticism on your part, may I suggest that you read thoroughly the new topic I have created - Dogmatism? Blind Faith? The Kalamas are Disillusioned. There is no need for me to prove anything on the forum.
As seen in the topic 'Dogmatism? Blind Faith? The Kalamas are Disillusioned', true contemplatives do not need to depend on scientific reports. If it were otherwise, for 2500 years, of which a large period of time there is lack of modern science, nobody would have become enlightened. Buddhism is not a religion, neither is it just a philosophy or an academic subject. It reveals truths beyond theories and comprehension of the mind. A person of high caliber (as have been seen in Albert Einstein) will not limit himself solely to science to understand the universe -- not everything is measurable and quantifiable. There is absolutely no need for us to prove anything - if we cultivate the dharma we will see for ourselves.
May you be enlightened. -
Let the scientist do the experiments? Are you mad? You make claims and expect people to believe based on your speculations? You don't even want to/ bother to find out the truth?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Not speculated, but it is a TRUTH because there really are nobody else in the world who have produced shariras except Buddhist - and not just any Buddhists, but real Buddhist practitioners who cultivated well. If there were non-practitioners who produced shariras, it would have been known. So far you never heard of anyone else from other religions, other priests, who produced Shariras. It's also a fact that is observable.[/quote]
Nobody other than Buddhists make a big deal out of finding stones after cremation... we don't even know that they are stones. Nobody in all 2500 years bothered to establish the claims made regarding Shariras. They are just happy with the speculations of what Shariras are and how it is produced.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
You yourself see how ridiculous it is? Buddhists, having observed, kept, revered shariras for 2500 years [b]stilldon't know what the hell they are. Cannot produce any evidence and any experiments done to proof what they are?
[b]
Are you saying that Buddhists, having observed, kept, revered shariras for 2500 years don't know what the hell they are? Laughing That's like living with your grandma for many years and someone tells you, 'What is your grandma? You have not investigated, and she is merely a speculation.'
[quote]Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
In terms of Buddhist practise, Buddha already gave explanation.
In terms of Modern science, I don't know whether they have investigated, but if they had, then there were no results. I don't think the scientists are willing to spend effort to researching on supernatural that they have no confidence in finding results.
Like I said, something that can be observed cannot be considered a speculation but it is a fact.
Investigation on how they work scientifically? Let the scientists do. It doesn't help us in our enlightenment. -
What is this ???? Personal Insult or Forum DiscussionOriginally posted by casino_king:Let the scientist do the experiments? Are you mad? You make claims and expect people to believe based on your speculations? You don't even want to/ bother to find out the truth?
If Please share things nicely , you are getting more and more terroristic in nature.
AEN is being very cordial with your attacks ,but I see you are inappropriate
Respect yourself and other will respect you
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Interesting debate
They say cosuming the relics/shariras will give the person powers beyond imagination
As I was not able to get my hands on any preferable Lord Buddha's sharira/relic anyone could verify this heresay? 
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Originally posted by casino_king:
If shariras were stones, they could not possibly have all the miraculous features, they would not have those splendid colours, they could not withstand hammering and hitting. Shariras are obviously different from stones. Ordinary people will only find grey ash after cremation - NOT shariras.
Nobody other than Buddhists make a big deal out of finding stones after cremation... we don't even know that they are stones. Nobody in all 2500 years bothered to establish the claims made regarding Shariras. They are just happy with the speculations of what Shariras are and how it is produced.
Again, my dunnu how many times repeating it, Buddhists do NOT speculate about shariras because it is none of our business to speculate - does it help in our enlightenment? Let the scientists do it.You yourself see how ridiculous it is? Buddhists, having observed, kept, revered shariras for 2500 years stilldon't know what the hell they are. Cannot produce any evidence and any experiments done to proof what they are?
Obviously, for 2500 years we KNOW what shariras are.
You are very weird - it's like asking 'have you done any experiments to produce evidence to proof what your Grandma is?'Let the scientist do the experiments? Are you mad? You make claims and expect people to believe based on your speculations? You don't even want to/ bother to find out the truth?
Again this is very lame. Like I said for the dunnu how many times, Buddhists do NOT speculate what shariras is.
I did not even speculate how shariras work - I only stated FACTS and no more than FACTS so far about shariras.
Buddha explanation for us is already enough - and it has been true because only practitioners have shariras, thus proving Buddha's point. There is no need to go into scientific details - if you want, go find out yourself. We'll be happy to hear from you.
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Edit: Pls do NOT keep asking repeated questions. Thank you. -
Pls post in relevant topic. Thank you.