Buddhism cannot be discussed openly?
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I have not heard before.Originally posted by maggot:Interesting debate
They say cosuming the relics/shariras will give the person powers beyond imagination
As I was not able to get my hands on any preferable Lord Buddha's sharira/relic anyone could verify this heresay? 
But I dont think it is true. Who in the right mind would consume a Buddha's relic anyway... it is quite disrespectful.. Buddha shariras are meant to be revered. -
Pls post in relevant topic. Thank you.
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Some time ago I saw on TV that buddha's relics actually comes in a special container and this containers are very limited and only left 1 for display at a temple and the rest were seems to be vanished from the world.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I have not heard before.
But I dont think it is true. Who in the right mind would consume a Buddha's relic anyway... it is quite disrespectful.. Buddha shariras are meant to be revered.
shariras/relics were said to contain "essence" of the buddhist cultivators thus also contains certain form of energies yet to be verified by scientists.
These energies were indestructible by fire and were once part of the human body thus making consummable
I came across the "dark side of the world" where there is myths of demons successful consumed those shariras/relics are thus gain enormous powers. -
HmmmOriginally posted by maggot:Some time ago I saw on TV that buddha's relics actually comes in a special container and this containers are very limited and only left 1 for display at a temple and the rest were seems to be vanished from the world.
shariras/relics were said to contain "essence" of the buddhist cultivators thus also contains certain form of energies yet to be verified by scientists.
These energies were indestructible by fire and were once part of the human body thus making consummable
I came across the "dark side of the world" where there is myths of demons successful consumed those shariras/relics are thus gain enormous powers.
interesting...
But well... I cannot certify or disproof whether the myths are real or not. -
I must say that this is interesting reading...Originally posted by geforce:A: People came to the earth from the Heaven of Light-Sound. Their coming wasn't just seven hundred billion years ago. Perhaps such a situation already existed seven thousand trillion years ago. When the gods from the Heaven of Light-Sound came to this world, they were no longer that perfect and had already lost their wisdom. Why? For the same reason that people lose their wisdom when they get reborn. In the beginning, there were no humans in this world, and it was still undeveloped, an indistinguishable mass, like a chicken egg. The gods flew to the world like flies, thinking there was something good to eat here. To get from the Heaven of Light-Sound to the earth, they probably had to travel a long time, just as now it takes a long time for a satellite launched into space to enter its orbit, perhaps several years in human time. The gods didn't come to the earth for any special reason. They had been travelling and had lost their compass, so they were in quite a flurry when they got to the earth. When they reached the earth, they were not as intelligent as they had been in the heavens. All they had left was a perceptive nature. They weren't as perfect and whole as when they were in the heavens. In the same way, a person may be very intelligent, but when he dies and gets reborn as a child again, he will have forgotten all about his previous life. It is also like those victims of car collisions who fall into a coma and become totally stupefied.
no basis? How sad.Originally posted by geforce:Although it's said that they came from the Heaven of Light-Sound, they gradually lost their original virtue and wisdom and only had a little bit of perceptive ability left. Although they are said to have come from the Heaven of Light-Sound, only a few came, and ultimately no one knows how many. No one can verify when they came either. There are no historical records to consult, nor is there much basis for this theory.
I would think so.Originally posted by geforce:As for the so-called science, there is no real thing called science. People just made up the name "science" and called it that. It's actually just a body of theories. Is this kind of reasoning perfect or not? It depends on each person's perspective and faculty of understanding. Some people understand it. Others have not studied science before, and do not understand science. Does that mean the people who haven't studied science before lack that kind of reasoning in their own nature?
Oh?Originally posted by geforce:No.
Please tell us why?Originally posted by geforce:Regardless of whether you've studied science or not, that kind of reasoning exists in your nature. You cannot say that if someone has studied science, then he has the ability to understand science, and if he hasn't studied science, then he doesn't have the ability to understand science.
Elaboration please, evidence please, quote the research plaese; otherwise please state that it is speculation.Originally posted by geforce:It's the same with the Buddha-nature; everyone has it in his own nature.
Elaboration please, evidence please, quote the research please; otherwise please state that it is speculation.Originally posted by geforce:Science is only a small part of the Buddha-nature, and it is not a very complete kind of reasoning.
Coming from someone who is typing on a computer linked by the Internet... I am left speechless.Originally posted by geforce:You may say people are doing such and such research in science, and writing about such and such theories, but actually, those are just the upside-down attachments of people. They are as if "adding a head on top of a head." Having nothing to do, they look for something to keep them busy. Busily doing this and that, they never discover anything. They study science, investigating back and forth, but they never reach any real conclusions.
I guess the only conclusion I can arrive at is that you did not use a PC to type that and it was transmitted to us using telekinesis.... awesome!Originally posted by geforce:People become attached to science, thinking it's something special. In fact, it is all inherent in our nature, and you don't need to look outside. If you seek outside, you'll never find it. You may say it's real, but that's just the superficial. The real thing can neither be found nor spoken of. Basically, science doesn't exist. It's just called science because that's what we call it. -
Regarding this pls continue discussion at http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=185514
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I am not saying that there is no such thing as Shariras. According to the scientific method, it is pure speculation unless you study it properly. Nothing can replace scientific experiments to discover the truth. The scientific method was not developed to discredit religion. It was developed "for the investigation of phenomena and the acquisition of new knowledge of the natural world, as well as the correction and integration of previous knowledge, based on observable, empirical, measurable evidence, and subject to laws of reasoning. Buddhists make so many claims about Shariras and yet refuse to put the claims to the tests.... one can only conclude that the claims are pure speculations.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:If shariras were stones, they could not possibly have all the miraculous features, they would not have those splendid colours, they could not withstand hammering and hitting. Shariras are obviously different from stones. Ordinary people will only find grey ash after cremation - NOT shariras.
You can say it a million times but if you do not do the proper experiments to proof the claims, then they fall under speculation.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Again, my dunnu how many times repeating it, Buddhists do NOT speculate about shariras because it is none of our business to speculate - does it help in our enlightenment? Let the scientists do it.
If I say that my Grandma is different from other people's Grandma, then sure I have to provide the proof and I would want to do experiments to prove to myself that I am not hallucinating and what my claims about my Grandma is correct.[/b][/quote]Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Obviously, for 2500 years we KNOW what shariras are. Rolling Eyes
You are very weird - it's like asking 'have you done any experiments to produce evidence to proof what your Grandma is?'
I can only conclude that you are happy to accept the speculations. Unless you can show me that Buddhist have done experiments to confirm Buddhist ideas regarding shariras and tell the world what experiments they did and how they did it so that independent bodies or people can conduct the same experiments and see the results for themselves.... I can only conclude that you are but indulging in nice fantasies.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Again this is very lame. Like I said for the dunnu how many times, Buddhists do NOT speculate what shariras is.
I did not even speculate how shariras work - I only stated FACTS and no more than FACTS so far about shariras.
Buddha explanation for us is already enough - and it has been true because only practitioners have shariras, thus proving Buddha's point. There is no need to go into scientific details - if you want, go find out yourself. We'll be happy to hear from you. -
Anything that can be observed by everyone is a fact - it does not require any other scientific method to find out how it works - like your Grandma. Buddhists did not make any claims about shariras other than that which is a FACT - for example, shariras exist. Similarly, things like it cannot be destroyed by heating, hammering, all these are also verified and tested before, otherwise it would not have been claimed so.
If you are the only one who claims something about your grandma, then you need to be checked for any mental problems. But if everyone for 2500 years have observed your grandma, it clearly means that it is a FACT.
Otherwise you might as well doubt every single science experiment, because all the scientists could have hallucinated and their scientific results are all imagined. -
Since you claimed that it had been investigated, please tell me where I can read the reports of the investigation. Please link me to the reports on how and what experiments were done so people can do the same experiments.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Anything that can be observed by everyone is a fact - it does not require any other scientific method to find out how it works - like your Grandma. Buddhists did not make any claims about shariras other than that which is a FACT - for example, shariras exist. Similarly, things like it cannot be destroyed by heating, hammering, all these are also verified and tested before, otherwise it would not have been claimed so.
If you are the only one who claims something about your grandma, then you need to be checked for any mental problems. But if everyone for 2500 years have observed your grandma, it clearly means that it is a FACT.
Otherwise you might as well doubt every single science experiment, because all the scientists could have hallucinated and their scientific results are all imagined. -
one pushes himslf to the verge of life
when one see 'nutting' in his life
there will be a time he cum to a crucial point
where u have to chose btwn 2lines
1 line runnin down the journey life
1 line headin to destruction point
may ur little light in u shines
to guide u to life savin point
when im typin up to tis point
my heart ache like breakin point
all is not 'lost' yet..my friend..
dont u feel sumtin missin in u?
are u losin ur frend or ppl ard u?
increasin number of 'enemies' to u?
do u find hard to communicate to ppl?
r u lackin the care and concern tat u lookin for?
we mit..by fate
friends we are
enemy u see us
one dun call the shot in life..
what u dun like dun believe ..dun mean they are no good or dun exist.
y build tat wall to defence urslf where friends like us dun attack in the first place?
izzit pride built u up or insecurity u feel?
break tat wall down..u have much to receive in life. -
Life has much to offer
And you will find that out
If only you did not
Box yourself in a corner
Surround yourself with superstitions
Life has much to offer
Too much to offer
for you to box yourself with scriptures
rules and laws made up by men
who could not cope with reality.
Life has much to offer
if only you can see that life is not for clinging to
but that life is there for living. -
ic..my friend.
so tis is the msg u tryin to convery
the intention is tere..
but the wisdom of deliverin might be lackin.
oso on the spiritual issue..
its the same as one meet/see human being(eg.wife)..its abt affinity..'unseen/unknown factor do exist'
likewise when one meet/see spiritual being..its abt afinity too.
for ppl never experience, will label it as superstitous ..its perfectly normal
but if one 'can see everytin as one'..theres isnt any superstious exist in the first place.
(duno u understand my point or not)
oso theres no ned to prove the existence of spiritual stuff..
for its an indivdual stuff..
i agree on walkin thru life..but with a buddha nature.
btw all those im postin is my own view.
thank you -
Hitting? After trying to hit it with a hammer on a metal zhuan, the sharira remains undamaged. There are many cases in Buddhist history of hitting sharira and it remains undamaged - but in the previous article it only stated one case. There are many others. For instance, many people tested the sharira by hitting them with a hammer - and not only is the sharira completely unharmed, it leaves a dent on the hammer itself. As for heating, of course, shariras cannot be melted because the shariras are remained from cremation. For instance Buddha's shariras were obtained after his body Self-cremated in a Samadhi of Fire - witnessed by all the disciples around him, and the shariras that remained were even larger and more than his entire body. It was later distributed equally to 8 kingdoms. It was reported that some went to the nagas and some went to the devas. If shariras can melt, it would have melted. It cannot be melted or reduced to ashes and remain undamaged.Originally posted by casino_king:Since you claimed that it had been investigated, please tell me where I can read the reports of the investigation. Please link me to the reports on how and what experiments were done so people can do the same experiments.
Scientific experiment? There is no need for scientific experiment, unless you consider hitting and heating as scientific experiment. Then yes - if you have a sharira, no matter how you burn or hit it, no amount of heat and pressure can dissolve the sharira. It will remain as beautiful as ever. -
Hmmm... tis casino still don get it.Maybe i should put it in singaporean context.
The things tat u have brought up r totally irreverent in buddhism.
We don't bother abt all these stuffs
The Buddha said that what was important was to know that we suffer, the cause of such suffering, that there is an end to this suffering, and that there is a path which can be followed to bring this suffering to an end - the four noble truths.
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Originally posted by casino_king:
We dont know what life has to offer - only death is certain.
Life has much to offer
Think you can get all you want in life? Think again.
What if one month later the doctors proclaim that you have cancer? Will you be able to enjoy your material wealth no matter how rich you are?
What is life - life is a like a dream, or like a movie. Sometimes good scenes sometimes bad scenes - even the forum is quite like a movie, is it not? Participate in it, but it will be foolish to get caught up with it.And you will find that out
True. Superstitious people will never see the light. Only the sincere Dharma practitioner not caught up by dogmas can find True and Lasting Hapiness. Superstitions will bring no good and benefits for humanity, but only more Ignorance. Through the practise of Dharma, one will naturally gain wisdom and avoid practising superstitiously. He should not believe what was said blindly - but to take note of it, and then SEE for HIMSELF that it is true. (Read: Dogmatism? Blind Faith? The Kalamas are Disillusioned)
If only you did not
Box yourself in a corner
Surround yourself with superstitions
Also see: Proven: Buddhists 'really are happier'Life has much to offer
And the most worthy of all is the gift of Dharma life has to offer, for all material things that are fleeting cannot ensure lasting hapiness and freedom of sufferings.
Too much to offer
How will a person be able to find Bliss in life when he doesn't even know what is Life? He gets caught up in his Life Situation but misses the essence of what Life is. What a pity...
Breathe.. you are alive.
"Besides, we all talk of 'me.' How do you know what is this 'me' that we speak of? You dream you are a bird, and soar to heaven, or dream you are a fish, and dive into the ocean's depths. And you cannot tell whether the man now speaking is awake or in a dream. "A man feels a pleasurable sensation before he smiles, and smiles before he thinks how he ought to smile. Resign yourself to the sequence of things, forgetting the changes of life, and you shall enter into the pure, the divine, the One."
- Chuang Tzu (Lao Tzu's successor)for you to box yourself with scriptures
Scriptures are merely guides, guides to finding our true nature, guide to finding lasting hapiness, liberation from all vexation. It cannot grant people salvation, but if one were to be able to practise according to it, it is fully capable of freeing a man 'out of the box'. The box is samsara itself - and samsara resides in the mind.
rules and laws made up by men
who could not cope with reality.
For example, through practising dharma, we can be completely liberated from the symbols that we are binded to. ....Lastly I do see some of your points. You might want to look into how man is defined by symbols for your gambler case. Again what I am going to say next might not be soothing to your ears but Buddhism truly teaches us how to go beyond these symbols. In whatever case, reserve an open for a fruitful discussion. We might not reach any conclusion but without an open mind, any form of discussion will eventually prove futile.... - Thusness
And ONLY Buddhism's method for freeing someone from his mental habits like Gambling is not only on a superficial level but a complete and permanent level - for the Buddhadharma allows one to completely get rid of the core delusion that leads to gambling and any other samsaric ways - through understanding the dharma, the nature of illusion, and the way out of illusions forever. Through practising dharma, one will be freed from ALL samsaric mental tendencies. It is not like 'I believe in Buddha, and Buddha says Gambling is Evil, so I don't gamble.' Such people may say so, but will not be free from temptation and may give in to temptation no matter how strong his faith may be.
Rules and laws made by men are needed only at the beginning when people are mentally unstable, unruly and impure. That is why precepts is the basis for Samadhi and Wisdom, but as one developes Samadhi and Wisdom, his mind will naturally not be moved to commit crimes. If everyone can practise the dharma, purify his mind, then I believe one day, there will absolutely be no need for laws - because when the mind is pure, the land is pure. A pure land shall be found within samsara.Life has much to offer
Good, it seems you have understood what I said.
if only you can see that life is not for clinging to
but that life is there for living.
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Thank you casino_king once again, our forum rating has increased from 32.223 to 38.329 for the month of May!
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Asking "What is anything" is not speculation. It is before the formation of hypothesis.Originally posted by casino_king:Do you understand what the word "speculation" means?
Do you understand what the scientific method is?
When you look at certain phenomena, like Shariras for example... you begin by speculating what they are.... you do not stop there. Otherwise it remains speculation.
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You got to thanks others too.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Thank you casino_king once again, our forum rating has increased from 32.223 to 38.329 for the month of May!
Anyway best of luck for your exams. -
Hi Casino_King,
Since science in its most advance form is written in the form of mathematics, I would just like to bring imaginary numbers into picture to illustrate a point about fantasies. ‘Imaginary number’ as its name implies isn’t real and early mathematicians deemed it as quite meaningless to do something like square rooting a negative 1. Nevertheless, since it appeared in mathematics, they did not just shunt it aside. True enough few centuries later mathematicians were finally able to give imaginary numbers geometrical interpretation. This helps us understand how “time intervals” can be represented as “space distances” and gives great convenience in uniting our ordinary three-dimensional space and time into a four-dimensional picture governed by the rules of four-dimensional geometry. Thus we should not discredit too quickly what that is enveloped by a veil of mystery as total fantasies.
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An additional point:
Science is but one way of understanding the phenomenon universe. It is neither the only way nor the best way. Just like it is not right to apply the same physical laws that govern a man size universe to the quantum world, we can’t apply the same laws when we deal with a world that is non-material and qualitative (It is not meant for that). We do not create a mathematical formula to define the meaning of ‘beauty’ and ‘love’. Using the wrong approach at times mislead us into conclusion that something is irrational and in turn, we might missed something truly valuable. Just my 2 cents worth. Happy discussing. -
+1Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Thank you casino_king once again, our forum rating has increased from 32.223 to 38.329 for the month of May! -
That is a good illustration. I note that those imaginary numbers indeed served no purpose during the ancient times.Originally posted by Thusness:Hi Casino_King,
Since science in its most advance form is written in the form of mathematics, I would just like to bring imaginary numbers into picture to illustrate a point about fantasies. ‘Imaginary number’ as its name implies isn’t real and early mathematicians deemed it as quite meaningless to do something like square rooting a negative 1. Nevertheless, since it appeared in mathematics, they did not just shunt it aside. True enough few centuries later mathematicians were finally able to give imaginary numbers geometrical interpretation. This helps us understand how “time intervals” can be represented as “space distances” and gives great convenience in uniting our ordinary three-dimensional space and time into a four-dimensional picture governed by the rules of four-dimensional geometry. Thus we should not discredit too quickly what that is enveloped by a veil of mystery as total fantasies.
It remained in the realm of "fantasy" in that it served no purpose. One can also argue that out of the numerous "imaginary" numbers; most were discarded as nonsense.
Whether they prove to be nonsense or turn out to be "useful" would depend on "experiments" or "proofs."
Take meditation for example. Buddhists and Hindus and even Jesus talked about "meditation."
Yet until we conceptualise what we mean by meditation and its benefits and effects and do the experiments we do not make any claims about it and speak about it with authority.
Now that the experiments had been done and the data observed, we can say that meditation is indeed beneficial. Now not only can we say that it is benificial, we can also say what the benefits are and the extent of the benefits.
We note also that many of the claims by religious people regarding meditation was not observed. We can say that the experiments did not cover those aspects. Or we can say that those claims were not observed.
If I were to tell people how they should live their lives, like whether they should gamble or otherwise; I better have sound, logical, well considered reasons backed up by well conducted research by well respected people.
If I do not, I might say: "based on my observation of this and this and such and such, I recommend you this." The listener can then decide for themselves.
I do not go around and claim "proof" and "evidence" and would honestly tell it like it is. That is not to say that if I tell it like it is, I will not have anybody believing me.
If Buddhist and Christians and Muslims understand that they are working in the realm of beliefs and "personal experiences" then there would not be these suicide bombers and there would not be people like those in sgforums; the Christians and the Buddhist who insist that they are right because they have the "evidence."
If they tell me that their personal experience tells them this and that, then I tell them that other people's experience tell them otherwise. So far other than not more than a couple of Christians and Buddhists, the rest keep telling that they have the evidence. -
Yes Casino_King,
I certainly agree with what you said. Transcendental experience till now must remain at a personal level and it is not wise to over emphasize these experiences and make objective claims. Since science has ascended to become the ruling mode of knowing, it will have to do something to account for non-material phenomenon. Perhaps quantum mechanics will succeed in doing so in future but till then, it should not stop us from further investigating into our own existence, our nature and the meaning of life through other modes of knowing other than science. Nice chat. -
I would like to say that science certainly does not need to : "do something to account for non-material phenomenon." As far as science is concern, there is no evidence of "non-material phenomenon."Originally posted by Thusness:Yes Casino_King,
Since science has ascended to become the ruling mode of knowing, it will have to do something to account for non-material phenomenon. Perhaps quantum mechanics will succeed in doing so in future but till then, it should not stop us from further investigating into our own existence, our nature and the meaning of life through other modes of knowing other than science. Nice chat. -
removed.