Buddhism cannot be discussed openly?
-
There are 2 parts on the above comments that I need to clarify :-Originally posted by casino_king:I would like to say that science certainly does not need to : "do something to account for non-material phenomenon." As far as science is concern, there is no evidence of "non-material phenomenon."
1. What is meant by "science certainly does not need to do something to account for non-material phenomenon",
do you mean that science has proven that 'non-material phenomenon" does not exist?
or
'non-material phenomenon" is beyond the domain of science?
or
you are implying that consciousness is a material phenomenon?
and
2. Are you asserting that "anything that cannot be evidence or proven objectively does not exist"? -
Originally posted by casino_king:
though one still have to mentally prepare for suffering and eventually death. it's part of life too, not just enjoyment only. there are ppl who take an aeroplane, fearing death, fearing the unknown; weak in mental will power; mentally uneasy.... that's when 'we' comes in, locating the very root of suffering.
Life has much to offer
And you will find that out
If only you did not
Box yourself in a corner
Surround yourself with superstitions
Life has much to offer
Too much to offer
for you to box yourself with scriptures
rules and laws made up by men
who could not cope with reality.
Life has much to offer
if only you can see that life is not for clinging to
but that life is there for living.CAUSE OF SUFFERING
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/5215/cs.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Buddha had observed that life is suffering. Before He could find a solution to the problem of suffering in life, he had to first look for the cause of suffering. The Buddha was just like a good doctor who first observes a patient's symptoms and identifies the cause of the illness before prescribing a cure. The Buddha discovered that the direct causes of suffering are desire or craving, and ignorance. This is the truth of the cause of suffering, which is the Second Noble Truth.
CRAVING
Craving is the deep-seated desire that all living beings have for the pleasures of the senses and for life itself. For instance, people always seek to enjoy good food, entertainment and pleasant company. Yet none of these can give them complete and lasting satisfaction. After the fine meal has been eaten, the beautiful music heard and the pleasant company shared, one is still not content. One would like to enjoy these pleasures again and again, and for as long as possible.
People who desire to own many things can never be fully satisfied too. Like children in a toy shop, they crave for all the attractive things they see around them. But like children too, they soon become dissatisfied with what they already have and desire for more. Sometimes, they can hardly eat or sleep until they get what they want. Yet when they succeeded in getting what they want, they may still find their happiness short-lived. Many will be too worried for the safety and condition of their new possessions to enjoy it. Then when the object they possess eventually breaks into pieces and has to be thrown away, they will suffer its loss even more.
When we have obtained something that we desire, we may want more and more of it and so greed arises. Because of desire and greed, people will lie, cheat and steal to get what they want. Uncontrolled desires can also lead to addiction, for example, smoking, drinking and overeating all lead to suffering and cause mental and physical harm.
If one is prevented by another person from getting what one desires, one may feel anger with that person. Desire when obstructed can lead to ill will and anger. This in turn can lead to harsh words, violent quarrels and even fights or killings. All this is suffering.
IGNORANCE
Craving or desire is like a great tree having many branches. There are branches of greed, of ill will and of anger. The fruit of this tree is suffering, but how does the tree of craving arise? Where does it grow? The answer is that the tree of craving is rooted in ignorance. It grows out of ignorance.
Ignorance is the inability to see the truth of things, to see things as they really are. There are many truths about the world which people are ignorant of because of the limitations of their understanding.
Science has shown, for instance, that there are sounds that people are unable to hear and waves of light, which they are unable to see. People would be totally unaware of radio waves, or ultra-violet light rays if special instruments had not been developed to enable them to observe these things. So long as people remain ignorant of things about the world in which they live, they suffer from all kinds of misunderstandings and delusions.
When people develop their minds and acquire wisdom through study, careful thought and meditation they will see the Truth. They will see things as they really are. They will understand the suffering and impermanence of life, the Law of Cause and Effect and the Four Noble Truths. By overcoming craving and ignorance, they will attain happiness and Enlightenment just as the Buddha did about 2500 years ago.
/\ -
hi my friend..
one ned to stretch out his hand in order to recieve all
one can choose to fold up his hand and walk off
but for those he chose not to be received, one dun deny all(label) .
by denyin is havin an enclosed mind.
u hav a grandma
one can choose not believe u hav a grandma
but one cant say ur grandma dun exist
u dun have to prove to everyone u hav a grandma
for its ur very grandma.
u hav a wife
i dun care if u hav a wife
since it is ur wife
only u noe the existence of ur wife
if i can hav an open mind..
eventually i will get to 'mit' ur grandma and wife
an open mind open all 'route' to all beings.
spiritual path is indivdual stuff whereby it has to be 'walk' by the indivdual.
buddhist or christan or wat is juz for 'identification purpose' as we are still livin in the physical form stage.
man r born to be stubborn
for he sees(naked eyes) only the 'present'
u r not to be blamed
for its juz a passin phrase.
thank you -
Originally posted by Thusness:
Let me point out to you where the flaw in your logic is. The Christians will tell you: Have you proven that there is no God? The Muslims will tell you: Have you proven that Modhammed is not the greatest and the last prophet? The Hindus will ask you: Have you proven that the tree I worship is not a manifestation of God?
There are 2 parts on the above comments that I need to clarify :-
1. What is meant by "science certainly does not need to do something to account for non-material phenomenon",
do you mean that science [b]has proven that 'non-material phenomenon" does not exist?
or
'non-material phenomenon" is beyond the domain of science?
or
you are implying that consciousness is a material phenomenon?
and
2. Are you asserting that "anything that cannot be evidence or proven objectively does not exist"?
[/b]
Consciousness exists with the human brain, that is clear... there is no evidence that consciousness exists outside the human brain. That is to say, when people die, their consciousness end with their death. Unless you can show prove otherwise. -
Live in reality my friendOriginally posted by simplified:01 May 2006 · 06:45 PM hi my friend..
Where there is no evidence
find the evidence or reject it
Do not live with superstitions
Believing where there is no evidence is believing in superstition
Try it test it and experience it
Do not shun it, withdraw from it, and not even think of it
Because your teacher, your ancestor, your mentor said so
Only can you say that you have truly lived
when you have experienced
the love
the hate
the fear
the suffering
Do not avoid it for fear of suffering,
Do not avoid it, try it and find it out for yourself.
That is what living is. -
science has proved that there is no end to things.elements are not created nor can be destroyed tis is science.U don't know meh?Originally posted by casino_king:Let me point out to you where the flaw in your logic is. The Christians will tell you: Have you proven that there is no God? The Muslims will tell you: Have you proven that Modhammed is not the greatest and the last prophet? The Hindus will ask you: Have you proven that the tree I worship is not a manifestation of God?
Consciousness exists with the human brain, that is clear... there is no evidence that consciousness exists outside the human brain. That is to say, when people die, their consciousness end with their death. Unless you can show prove otherwise.
-
what goes around comes around.
it is indeed very very cloudy. -
alway tel mr casino to make proper investigation and study b4 making an statement.Too bad he never learned...in the end alway mk a mockery out of himselfOriginally posted by paperflower:what goes around comes around.
it is indeed very very cloudy.
may he has to wisdom to learn -
yeah yeah 2 thumbs up for uOriginally posted by neutral_onliner:alway tel mr casino to make proper investigation and study b4 making an statement.Too bad he never learned...in the end alway mk a mockery out of himself
may he has to wisdom to learn 
-
Fact is, like I said, modern science know very very little about the nature of Consciousness. Any honest scientist will tell you that. They have studied the brain and the reactions of the brain but as to the nature of consciousness they know very little - and thats where Buddhism comes in.Originally posted by casino_king:Consciousness exists with the human brain, that is clear...
-------------------------Originally posted by An Eternal Now:To add on to my previous post on Buddhism and Science on 28 April 2006 · 03:30 PM -
....Nowadays physicists explain phenomena do not exist objectively in and of themselves but exists in the context of involvement with an observer. I feel that the relation between matter and consciousness is a place where eastern philosophy and western science could meet. I think this would be a happy marriage with no divorce. If we work along the lines of a joint effort by Buddhist scholars with experience in meditation and unbiased physicists to engage in a deeper research in the relation between matter and consciousness, we may find beautiful things which may be helpful. Also those scientists working on the human brain working on the field of neurology could benefit from the Buddhist explanations about consciousness. Some time ago, I asked a neurologist how memory functions. He reported they still have not found a concrete explanation. So in this field too we can work together. Some western medical professionals are also interested in curing certain illnesses through meditation. This is another interesting topic for joint project. Because of Buddhism's emphasis on self-creation, there is no Creator deity. Thus some consider it strictly speaking not a religion. A western scholar told me Buddhism is not a religion. It is a kind of science of mind. In this sense Buddhism does not belong to the category of religion. I consider this to be unfortunate. But in some sense Buddhism becomes closer to science. However from the scientists' viewpoint, Buddhism is a spiritual path. It is unfortunate that we do not seem to belong to science either. Buddhism thereby belongs to neither religion nor pure science. But this provides us an opportunity to make a bridge between faith and science. This is why I believe in the future we will work at bringing these two forces together. The majority of people ignore religion. But among those who do not, there is on one side of group who are experiencing the values of a spiritual path. On the other is a group who are denying any value to religion. As a result there is constant conflict between these factions. If one way or another we can help bring these two forces closer, it would be worthwhile....
- The Dalai Lama, Meaning of Life 3-4
Pls also see: NeuroScience and Buddhism
Consciousness Studies
In the West, consciousness has been an astonishingly neglected subject. This probably has something to do with the West's obsession with physical modes of observation and mechanistic modes of explanation. Consciousness tended to get left out of consideration when the scientific revolution got started in the seventeenth century. Then a vicious spiral set in: since consciousness was neglected as a subject of investigation, each new generation of scientists passed over it more quickly - because the previous generation had so little to say about it. Eventually it became utterly marginalised. In the last two decades of the twentieth century, however, this trend went into reverse gear, and more and more resources are being directed toward innovative and systematic investigations of consciousness.
Below you will find my own essays and papers on the 'mental monism' approach to the study of consciousness, as well as links to other web sites that I think are interesting or important.
Mental monism is the thesis that consciousness is the primary reality, and that the physical world is a derived construct. In the West, this theory had its clearest statement in the philosophy of Bishop George Berkeley, an eighteenth-century opponent of Sir Isaac Newton. Similar, but weaker views were championed by Ernst Mach two hundred years later. On the whole, however, this perspective has been neglected in the West. In fact, it is now more commonly encountered either through the imported versions of Buddhism and Hinduism, or through experiences with psychotropic drugs. Aldous Huxley, for example, in his "Perennial Philosophy", takes his cue from those sources.
A few people are waking up to mental monism, but it is still very much an isolated position ... -
Excerpt from: Buddhism & Science by Ajahn Brahmavamso
The Boy with No Brain
This is a well known case that throws a challenge to modern science. It's the case of Professor John Lorber and the student with no brain.[1] Professor Lorber was a neurologist at Sheffield University who held a research chair in paediatrics. He did a lot of research on hydrocephalus, or water on the brain. The student's physician at the university noticed that the youth had a slightly larger than normal head, and so referred him to Professor Lorber, simply out of interest. When they did a brain scan on the student they saw that his cranium was filled mainly with cerebrospinal fluid. The student had an IQ of 126, had gained a first-class honours degree in mathematics, and was socially completely normal. And yet the boy had virtually no brain. This is not just a fabrication; research has found other people with no brains. During the first world war, when there was such carnage in the trenches of Europe. Soldiers had their skulls literally blown apart by bullets and shrapnel. It is said that the doctors found that some of the shattered heads of those corpses were empty. There was no brain. The evidence of those doctors was put aside as being too difficult to understand. But Professor Lorber went forward with his findings, and published them, to the great disturbance of the scientific community. Billions of dollars are going into research on the brain. Current views hold that imbalances in the brain are causing your depressions, your lack of intelligence, or your emotional problems. And yet here is evidence that shows you don't need much of a brain to have an excellent mind.
A doctor friend in Sydney discussed this case with me once. He said he'd seen those CT scans, and confirmed that the case was well known in the medical community. He explained that that boy only had what was called a reptilian brain stem. Usually, any baby born with just a reptilian brain stem, without the cortex and the other stuff, will usually die straight away or within a few days after birth. A reptilian brain stem is not capable of maintaining basic bodily functions such as breathing, heart or liver. It's not enough to keep the higher brain functions going. It's not enough for speech, not enough for intelligence, certainly not enough for being an honours student in mathematics. This doctor said, "Ajahn Brahm, you wouldn't believe the problem that this is causing in my field of science. It shatters so much past research. It is challenging so many drug companies that are making billions of dollars in profits". Because dogmatic scientists can't understand how a person with virtually no brain can be intelligent, they are just burying the findings at the back of the filing cabinet, classifying it as an anomaly. But truth just won't go away.
The Mind and the Brain
As soon as you start to include the mind, this 'ghost in the machine', in the equations, scientists tend to become discomfited. They take refuge in dogma, and say, "No, that cannot exist". I really took the Sate Astronomer to task over such dogmatism in science.
As far as Buddhism is concerned there are six senses. Not just the five senses of science, namely sight, sound, smell, taste and touch but in addition the mind. From the very beginning in Buddhism, mind has been the sixth sense. Twenty-five centuries ago, the sixth sense was well recognised. So this is not changing things to keep up with modern times; this was so from the very beginning. The sixth sense, the mind, is independent of the other five senses. In particular the mind is independent of the brain. If you volunteer to have a brain transplant with me you take my brain and I take your brain I will still be Ajahn Brahm and you will still be you. Want to try it? If it was possible and it happened, you would still be yourself. The mind and the brain are two different things. The mind can make use of the brain but it doesn't have to.
Some of you may have had out of the body experiences. These out of the body experiences have recently been the subject of mainstream scientific research. Out of the body experiences are now a scientific fact! I like to stir people up by saying things like that. Recently I saw that Dr. Sam Parnia, a researcher from the University of Southampton Medical School, has given a paper, stating that consciousness survives death.[2] He said that he did not know how it happens, or why it happens, but, he says, it does happen. His evidence was gathered from people who have had out of the body experiences in his hospital. Dr Parnia, investigated and interviewed many, many patients. The information which they gave him, as a cool headed scientist, said yes, those people were conscious during the time they were dead. What was especially very convincing was that often they could actually describe to the doctor the medical procedures that were done during the time when they were clinically dead. They could describe it as if they were looking at their body from a position above the table. But how that happens Dr. Parnia can't explain. Why it happens he can't explain. But other medical findings also support the above. Finally, their findings replicated the work done earlier by Dr. Raymond A. Moody in the United States.[3]
The evidence proved to those hard nosed doctors that out of body experiences do happen. But how could they happen? If we agree that the mind can be independent of the body, then we have a plausible explanation. The brain doesn't need to be functioning for a mind to exist. The scientific facts are there, the evidence is there, but a lot of scientists don't like to admit those facts. They prefer to close their eyes because of dogmatism. -
Pls see what I posted previously, including what I said regarding the Near Death Experience cases.
--------------------------------
I dont think anything I have posted so far is against the 'Scientific Method'.Originally posted by casino_king:I chellenge you to give me your best shot and you want "others" to do it... please lah, don't play play...
anyway... the invitation is now open to all the Buddhist in this forum.
The Christians in the other thread claim to have good and credible evidence to support their case and so do the Buddhists.
My position is that if you do not provide good evidence that is of the required standard like the standard set by what is known as "scientific method" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
then all the evidence amounts only to "speculation."
Take shariras for example. It is a FACT that shariras exist, and if you have missed the great Singapore Buddha Tooth relics exhibition in Singapore Expo a few years ago, which not only housed Buddha's tooth relics but also uncountable other miraculous and colourful relics, I think you missed something great.
Scientific explanation? I dont think there is scientific explanation yet, but like i said, this is NOT what Buddhists are concerned about. Whether we understand scientifically the miraculous workings of shariras, it does not affect our spiritual enlightenment.
Then take the Holographic Reality model I have shared with you earlier on, it is scientific explanation BACKED by EVIDENCE, so again it is not against your 'scientific method' website. The Holographic Nature of Reality is taught by Buddha 2500 years ago and also similarly taught and spoken by other mystics and contemplatives. The book on The Amazing Holographic Universe also explains scientifically how paranormal activities can occur.
Then take Ian Stevenson's research on past life - and many others researches (i.e http://www.business.uq.edu.au/staff/personal/zhong/reinc/) on past life - it is also backed by a lot of evidence.
Then take the 'amazing abilities' thread - and its evidences - and its scientific explanations - all these are not speculations but is part of SCIENCE and quantum physics (the explanation part). This explains how psychic, paranormal phenomena is possible. In fact miracles, psychic phenomena, are so common in all religions that if you want to look for them you do not need to come to Buddhism. Not only monks have supernatural powers. There are so many people throughout the world who has psychic, supernatural abilities - even on this forum. Hopefully you may meet one someday and be convinced. I am convinced because of my personal experiences.
Also, countless Near Death Experience cases confirm that Consciousness DOES survive after death.
Many of these people who are CLINICALLY DEAD for a few minutes/seconds before revival report floating above their bodies and watching what was happening to "HIM" (his dead body) - everything in exact details.
Let me remind you again the Buddhism and Buddhist practise itself is PROOF.
If you dont believe it, by following Buddha's method, you will find the proof - just like countless others had. Similarly a science experiment that has succeeded will be reproducable by all others. Similar case - Buddha's enlightenment is reproducable in everybody else.
Lastly, because I can sense that there is some attachment to scepticism on your part, may I suggest that you read thoroughly the new topic I have created - Dogmatism? Blind Faith? The Kalamas are Disillusioned. There is no need for me to prove anything on the forum.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for the investigation of phenomena and the acquisition of new knowledge of the natural world, as well as the correction and integration of previous knowledge, based on observable, empirical, measurable evidence, and subject to laws of reasoning.
-----
Under this definition, then Buddhism CERTAINLY is a Scientific Method. But its techniques are DIFFERENT from those that you more often know. Like I said, don't confuse Biology with Physics, Chemistry with Arts. And also, Buddhism also deals with that which is beyond the 'natural world'.
"Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural & spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity"
-- Albert Einstein [1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press]
"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion which is based on experience, which refuses dogmatism. If there's any religion that would cope the scientific needs it will be BuddhismÂ…"
-- Albert Einstein
See Buddhism and Science article[/b][/quote]
[quote]Originally posted by An Eternal Now:More from the Scientific Method webpage:
* Consistent. Generates no obvious logical contradictions, and 'saves the phenomena', being consistent with observation.
* Parsimonious. Economical in the number of assumptions and hypothetical entities.
* Pertinent. Describes and explains observed phenomena.
* Falsifiable and testable. See Falsifiability and Testability.
* Reproducible. Makes predictions that can be tested by any observer, with trials extending indefinitely into the future.
* Correctable and dynamic. Subject to modification as new observations are made.
* Integrative, robust, and corrigible. Subsumes previous theories as approximations, and allows possible subsumption by future theories. See Correspondence principle
* Provisional or tentative. Does not assert the absolute certainty of the theory.
------
So far, Buddhism fulfills ALL of it Being a contemplative system Free from dogmatism but self-realisation, self-observation.
As seen in the topic 'Dogmatism? Blind Faith? The Kalamas are Disillusioned', true contemplatives do not need to depend on scientific reports. If it were otherwise, for 2500 years, of which a large period of time there is lack of modern science, nobody would have become enlightened. Buddhism is not a religion, neither is it just a philosophy or an academic subject. It reveals truths beyond theories and comprehension of the mind. A person of high caliber (as have been seen in Albert Einstein) will not limit himself solely to science to understand the universe -- not everything is measurable and quantifiable. There is absolutely no need for us to prove anything - if we cultivate the dharma we will see for ourselves.
May you be enlightened. -
----Originally posted by casino_king:Live in reality my friend
Where there is no evidence
find the evidence or reject it
Do not live with superstitions
Believing where there is no evidence is believing in superstition
Try it test it and experience it
Do not shun it, withdraw from it, and not even think of it
Because your teacher, your ancestor, your mentor said so
Only can you say that you have truly lived
when you have experienced
the love
the hate
the fear
the suffering
Do not avoid it for fear of suffering,
Do not avoid it, try it and find it out for yourself.
That is what living is.
Exerpt by Ajahn Brahmavamso:Originally posted by concerned_man:
----
Come and See for Yourself
If you had just one person who had been confirmed as medically dead who could describe to the doctors, as soon as they were revived, what had been said, and done during that period of death, wouldn't that be pretty convincing? When I was doing elementary particle physics there was a theory that required for its proof the existence of what was called the 'W' particle. At the cyclotron in Geneva, CERN funded a huge research project, smashing atoms together with an enormous particle accelerator, to try and find one of these 'W' particles. They spent literally hundreds of millions of pounds on this project. They found one, just one 'W' particle. I don't think they have found another since. But once they found one 'W' particle, the researchers involved in that project were given Nobel prizes for physics. They had proved the theory by just finding the one 'W' particle. That's good science. Just one is enough to prove the theory.
When it comes to things we don't like to believe, they call just one experience, one clear factual undeniable experience, an anomaly. Anomaly is a word in science for disconcerting evidence that we can put in the back of a filing cabinet and not look at again, because it's threatens our worldview. It undermines what we want to believe. It is threatening to our dogma. However, an essential part of the scientific method is that theories have to be abandoned in favour of the evidence, in respect of the facts. The point is that the evidence for a mind independent of the brain is there. But once we admit that evidence, and follow the scientific method, then many cherished theories, what we call 'sacred cows' will have to be abandoned.
When we see something that challenges any theory, in science or in religion, we should not ignore the evidence. We have to change the theory to fit the facts. That is what we do in Buddhism. All the Dhamma of the Buddha, everything that he taught, if it does not fit the experience, then we should not accept it. We should not accept the Buddha's words in contradiction of experience. That is clearly stated in the Kalama Sutta. (AN III, 65) The Buddha said do not believe because it is written in the books, or even if I say it. Don't just believe because it is tradition, or because it sounds right, or because it's comforting to you. Make sure it fits your experience. The existence of mind, independent of the brain, fits experience. The facts are there.
Sometimes, however, we cannot trust the experts. You cannot trust Ajahn Brahm. You cannot trust the scientific journals. Because people are often biased. Buddhism gives you a scientific method for your practice. Buddhism says, do the experiment and find out for your self if what the Buddha said is true or not. Check out your experience. For example, develop the method to test the truth of past lives, rebirth and reincarnation. Don't just believe it with faith, find out for yourself. The Buddha has given a scientific experiment that you can repeat.
Until you understand the law of kamma, which is part of Buddhism, kamma is just a theory. Do you believe that there is a God 'up there' who decides when you can be happy or unhappy? Or is everything that happens to you just chance? Your happiness and your suffering in life, your joy, your pain and disappointments, are they deserved? Are you responsible or is it someone else's fault? Is it mere chance that we are rich or poor? Is it bad luck when we are sick and die at a young age? Why? You can find the true answer for yourself. You can experience the law of kamma through deep meditation. When the Buddha sat under the Bodhi tree at Bodhgaya, the two knowledge's he realized just before his Enlightenment were the knowledge from experience of the truth of rebirth, and the knowledge from experience of the Law of kamma. This was not theory, not just more thinking, not something worked out from discussions around the coffee table this was realization from deep experience of the nature of mind. You too can have that same experience.
All religions in the world except Buddhism maintain the existence of a soul. They affirm a real 'self', an 'essence of all being', a 'person', a 'me'. Buddhism says there is no self! Who is right? What is this 'ghost in the machine'? Is it a soul, is it a being, or is it a process? What is it? When the Buddha said that there is no one in here, he never meant that to be just believed, he meant that to be experienced. The Buddha said, as a scientific fact, that there is no 'self'. But like any scientific fact, it has to be experienced each one for themselves, paccattam veditabbo viññūhī. Many of you chant those Pāli words every day. It is basic scientific Buddhism. You have to keep an open mind. You don't believe there is 'no self', you don't believe there is a 'self' both beliefs are dogmatism. Keep an open mind until you complete the experiment. The experiment is the practice of sila, samādhi and pañña, (virtue, meditation and insight). The experiment is Buddhist practice. Do the same experimental procedures that the Buddha did under the Bodhi tree. Repeat it and see if you get the same results. The result is called Enlightenment.
Men and women have repeated that experiment many times over the centuries. It is in the laboratory of Buddhist practice that the Enlightened Ones, the Arahants, arise. The Arahants are the ones who have done the experiment and found the result. That's why Buddhism always has been the scientific way. It is the way of finding out for your self the truth of Enlightenment.[/b]
Pls also see, Dogmatism? Blind Faith? The Kalamas are Disillusioned -
hi my friend
having an enclosed mind
ppl choose to live behind
placein a label sign
ppl can only identify
(one never label first for tings he never experiences himslf)
to be a 'player' in life
one dun be a dictator
once a dictator
he never see followers(life beings)
one know how to write
but dunno wats is 'right'
no point in writin
when theres no practisin.
i c ur point friend..but do u c mine?
thank you. -
Hi Casino_King,
I have not formulated any form of ‘logical argument ‘yet -- no premise, no assertion and no conclusion drawn about anything. So ‘logically flaw’ is quite meaningless. Rather you have formed an assertion that "science certainly does not need to do something to account for non-material phenomenon." and I merely clarify before proceeding further. Do not jump into conclusion too quickly for no reasons. I believe a simple response like “You misunderstood my message, what I meant is …” is much simple.
quote:
________________________________________
Originally posted by casino_king:
Consciousness exists with the human brain, that is clear...
________________________________________
Perhaps if we were to live in the 17th centuries applying the Newtonian viewpoint, what you said might still be acceptable in the scientific community. Unfortunately, we donÂ’t. In light of quantum mechanics and neuroscience, I think that is a bold statement and you may want to substantiate it with some valid scientific findings.
Last but not least, unlike Taoism or Christianity, immortality is not Buddhism’s main concern. Even if there is no continuity of consciousness after death, true Buddhist practitioners will not be overly disturbed as they are thoroughly trained to understand the meaning of emptiness and doctrine of no-self. This practice of mental detachment is what that brings about a true scientific spirit that prepares Buddhists to see “What is” in their journey towards enlightenment. -
Hi mr Casino_king,
I saw your msg in the christian forum the other day stating that buddhist cannot eat Beef. The truth is Buddhist can eat Beef. It is more of taoism influence and Folk belief. You have misunderstood Buddhism.
Refer to the link below for more information on why
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=180539 -
thnks 4 all the comments.So just let mi make a conclusion statement here.Originally posted by Isis:Hi mr Casino_king,
I saw your msg in the christian forum the other day stating that buddhist cannot eat Beef. The truth is Buddhist can eat Beef. It is more of taoism influence and Folk belief. You have misunderstood Buddhism.
Refer to the link below for more information on why
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=180539
Mr CASINO Buddhism is NOT what you think to be.SO FAR you hav been talking abt FOLK PRACTICES -
Wah!! Then still say he studied BuddhismOriginally posted by Isis:Hi mr Casino_king,
I saw your msg in the christian forum the other day stating that buddhist cannot eat Beef. The truth is Buddhist can eat Beef. It is more of taoism influence and Folk belief. You have misunderstood Buddhism.
Refer to the link below for more information on why
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=180539
Can show me the link to the Christian thread? thanks -
I think what I said if I said anything about eating beef was that Thai Buddhist monks have no qualms about eating beef... frankly I do not remember that post anymore... I am sure it was not "the other day." Unless you can show us the actual post... we will take it as fantasy on your part for the time being...Originally posted by Isis:Hi mr Casino_king,
I saw your msg in the christian forum the other day stating that buddhist cannot eat Beef. The truth is Buddhist can eat Beef. It is more of taoism influence and Folk belief. You have misunderstood Buddhism.
Refer to the link below for more information on why
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=180539 -
TO ALL THE BUDDHIST HERE: Buddha said not to take his teaching in a dogmatic manner. I somehow get the feeling that you people here are very reasonable people except when people start to criticise Buddhism. I hope that you will take your founder's words to heart and not be dogmatic aboutr Buddhists teachings.Originally posted by Thusness:Hi Casino_King,
Perhaps if we were to live in the 17th centuries applying the Newtonian viewpoint, what you said might still be acceptable in the scientific community. Unfortunately, we donÂ’t. In light of quantum mechanics and neuroscience, I think that is a bold statement and you may want to substantiate it with some valid scientific findings.
Last but not least, unlike Taoism or Christianity, immortality is not Buddhism’s main concern. Even if there is no continuity of consciousness after death, true Buddhist practitioners will not be overly disturbed as they are thoroughly trained to understand the meaning of emptiness and doctrine of no-self. This practice of mental detachment is what that brings about a true scientific spirit that prepares Buddhists to see “What is” in their journey towards enlightenment.
To Thusness: You are very quick to accept any speculation, any suggestions.... let me cut and paste what I posted at the Christian forum for you here:
Let me give you an example. Scientists recently studying the "junk" portion of our human genome discovered some surprising results. These results suggest that the part considered junk is not "junk" but is really functional.
You do the maths, you look at your data and it all suggest that it is not "junk." The religious people will say; well since there is no explanation other than it is not junk then it is not junk. This is "faith."
If the scientist then goes round the world and make the claim, you know what will happen? He will be laughed off as an idiot. It is like when Christians say that somebody was healed becuase there is no other explanation for the healing other than he was prayed for.
The scientist would have been laughed off by the rest of the scientific community because they will ask him: "this brain child of yours... did you do the experiment to determine if what you think the data suggest is as expected?"
So you see, whatever you might have read about quantum physics and whateve people might speculate about some "strage" Quantum effects... other scientist will laugh their ass off if any respectable scientist will make the claims that you are suggesting without proper experiments. -
Obviously, you haven't really read what I posted all along in the topic to say that there is no experiments being done
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Some people are so blindOriginally posted by simplified:hi my friend
having an enclosed mind
ppl choose to live behind
placein a label sign
ppl can only identify
(one never label first for tings he never experiences himslf)
to be a 'player' in life
one dun be a dictator
once a dictator
he never see followers(life beings)
one know how to write
but dunno wats is 'right'
no point in writin
when theres no practisin.
i c ur point friend..but do u c mine?
thank you.
they see the label sign
everybody elses uses
except that which is in their own mind
Some people lived their lives
anywhere and everywhere
they go to hindu temples
they go catholic churches
they go to buddhist monastries
they go to places dogmatic people never go
their teacher told them clearly
not be dogmatic
and yet they do not believe what their teacher said
give up the dogma and give up the label sign
that is in your mind
you will then exclaim "I never knew!" -
To add on to the underlined part:Originally posted by An Eternal Now:To add on to my previous post on Buddhism and Science on 28 April 2006 · 03:30 PM -
....Nowadays physicists explain phenomena do not exist objectively in and of themselves but exists in the context of involvement with an observer. I feel that the relation between matter and consciousness is a place where eastern philosophy and western science could meet. I think this would be a happy marriage with no divorce. If we work along the lines of a joint effort by Buddhist scholars with experience in meditation and unbiased physicists to engage in a deeper research in the relation between matter and consciousness, we may find beautiful things which may be helpful. Also those scientists working on the human brain working on the field of neurology could benefit from the Buddhist explanations about consciousness. Some time ago, I asked a neurologist how memory functions. He reported they still have not found a concrete explanation. So in this field too we can work together. Some western medical professionals are also interested in curing certain illnesses through meditation. This is another interesting topic for joint project. Because of Buddhism's emphasis on self-creation, there is no Creator deity. Thus some consider it strictly speaking not a religion. A western scholar told me Buddhism is not a religion. It is a kind of science of mind. In this sense Buddhism does not belong to the category of religion. I consider this to be unfortunate. But in some sense Buddhism becomes closer to science. However from the scientists' viewpoint, Buddhism is a spiritual path. It is unfortunate that we do not seem to belong to science either. Buddhism thereby belongs to neither religion nor pure science. But this provides us an opportunity to make a bridge between faith and science. This is why I believe in the future we will work at bringing these two forces together. The majority of people ignore religion. But among those who do not, there is on one side of group who are experiencing the values of a spiritual path. On the other is a group who are denying any value to religion. As a result there is constant conflict between these factions. If one way or another we can help bring these two forces closer, it would be worthwhile....
- The Dalai Lama, Meaning of Life 3-4
Pls also see: NeuroScience and Buddhism
From The Universe as a Hologram - Holographic Reality -Pribram was drawn to the holographic model by the puzzle of how and where memories are stored in the brain. For decades numerous studies have shown that rather than being confined to a specific location, memories are dispersed throughout the brain.
In a series of landmark experiments in the 1920s, brain scientist Karl Lashley found that no matter what portion of a rat's brain he removed he was unable to eradicate its memory of how to perform complex tasks it had learned prior to surgery. The only problem was that no one was able to come up with a mechanism that might explain this curious "whole in every part" nature of memory storage. -
See: The Universe as a Hologram - Holographic Reality
The Holographic Universe
Michael Talbot
In 1982 a remarkable event took place. At the University of Paris a research team led by physicist Alain Aspect performed what may turn out to be one of the most important experiments of the 20th century. You did not hear about it on the evening news. In fact, unless you are in the habit of reading scientific journals you probably have never even heard Aspect's name, though there are some who believe his discovery may change the face of science.
Aspect and his team discovered that under certain circumstances subatomic particles such as electrons are able to instantaneously communicate with each other regardless of the distance separating them. It doesn't matter whether they are 10 feet or 10 billion miles apart.
Somehow each particle always seems to know what the other is doing. The problem with this feat is that it violates Einstein's long-held tenet that no communication can travel faster than the speed of light. Since traveling faster than the speed of light is tantamount to breaking the time barrier, this daunting prospect has caused some physicists to try to come up with elaborate ways to explain away Aspect's findings. But it has inspired others to offer even more radical explanations.
University of London physicist David Bohm, for example, believes Aspect's findings imply that objective reality does not exist, that despite its apparent solidity the universe is at heart a phantasm, a gigantic and splendidly detailed hologram.
To understand why Bohm makes this startling assertion, one must first understand a little about holograms. A hologram is a three- dimensional photograph made with the aid of a laser.
To make a hologram, the object to be photographed is first bathed in the light of a laser beam. Then a second laser beam is bounced off the reflected light of the first and the resulting interference pattern (the area where the two laser beams commingle) is captured on film.
When the film is developed, it looks like a meaningless swirl of light and dark lines. But as soon as the developed film is illuminated by another laser beam, a three-dimensional image of the original object appears.
The three-dimensionality of such images is not the only remarkable characteristic of holograms. If a hologram of a rose is cut in half and then illuminated by a laser, each half will still be found to contain the entire image of the rose.
Indeed, even if the halves are divided again, each snippet of film will always be found to contain a smaller but intact version of the original image. Unlike normal photographs, every part of a hologram contains all the information possessed by the whole.
The "whole in every part" nature of a hologram provides us with an entirely new way of understanding organization and order. For most of its history, Western science has labored under the bias that the best way to understand a physical phenomenon, whether a frog or an atom, is to dissect it and study its respective parts.
A hologram teaches us that some things in the universe may not lend themselves to this approach. If we try to take apart something constructed holographically, we will not get the pieces of which it is made, we will only get smaller wholes.
This insight suggested to Bohm another way of understanding Aspect's discovery. Bohm believes the reason subatomic particles are able to remain in contact with one another regardless of the distance separating them is not because they are sending some sort of mysterious signal back and forth, but because their separateness is an illusion. He argues that at some deeper level of reality such particles are not individual entities, but are actually extensions of the same fundamental something.
To enable people to better visualize what he means, Bohm offers the following illustration.
Imagine an aquarium containing a fish. Imagine also that you are unable to see the aquarium directly and your knowledge about it and what it contains comes from two television cameras, one directed at the aquarium's front and the other directed at its side.
As you stare at the two television monitors, you might assume that the fish on each of the screens are separate entities. After all, because the cameras are set at different angles, each of the images will be slightly different. But as you continue to watch the two fish, you will eventually become aware that there is a certain relationship between them.
When one turns, the other also makes a slightly different but corresponding turn; when one faces the front, the other always faces toward the side. If you remain unaware of the full scope of the situation, you might even conclude that the fish must be instantaneously communicating with one another, but this is clearly not the case.
This, says Bohm, is precisely what is going on between the subatomic particles in Aspect's experiment.
According to Bohm, the apparent faster-than-light connection between subatomic particles is really telling us that there is a deeper level of reality we are not privy to, a more complex dimension beyond our own that is analogous to the aquarium. And, he adds, we view objects such as subatomic particles as separate from one another because we are seeing only a portion of their reality.
Such particles are not separate "parts", but facets of a deeper and more underlying unity that is ultimately as holographic and indivisible as the previously mentioned rose. And since everything in physical reality is comprised of these "eidolons", the universe is itself a projection, a hologram.
In addition to its phantomlike nature, such a universe would possess other rather startling features. If the apparent separateness of subatomic particles is illusory, it means that at a deeper level of reality all things in the universe are infinitely interconnected.
The electrons in a carbon atom in the human brain are connected to the subatomic particles that comprise every salmon that swims, every heart that beats, and every star that shimmers in the sky.
Everything interpenetrates everything, and although human nature may seek to categorize and pigeonhole and subdivide, the various phenomena of the universe, all apportionments are of necessity artificial and all of nature is ultimately a seamless web.
In a holographic universe, even time and space could no longer be viewed as fundamentals. Because concepts such as location break down in a universe in which nothing is truly separate from anything else, time and three-dimensional space, like the images of the fish on the TV monitors, would also have to be viewed as projections of this deeper order.
At its deeper level reality is a sort of superhologram in which the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously. This suggests that given the proper tools it might even be possible to someday reach into the superholographic level of reality and pluck out scenes from the long-forgotten past.
What else the superhologram contains is an open-ended question. Allowing, for the sake of argument, that the superhologram is the matrix that has given birth to everything in our universe, at the very least it contains every subatomic particle that has been or will be -- every configuration of matter and energy that is possible, from snowflakes to quasars, from bluü whales to gamma rays. It must be seen as a sort of cosmic storehouse of "All That Is."
[continued in the Link] -
I see.Originally posted by casino_king:I think what I said if I said anything about eating beef was that Thai Buddhist monks have no qualms about eating beef... frankly I do not remember that post anymore... I am sure it was not "the other day." Unless you can show us the actual post... we will take it as fantasy on your part for the time being...
But anyway, even Mahayana Buddhists do not have qualms about eating Beef.
We do not discriminate cows from other animals, but we do encourage people to take up vegetarianism (which is not compulsory) out of compassion for living beings.