Is Rebirth NOT Reincarnation !
-
There is a lot of confusion surrounding the concepts of Reincarnation and Rebirth. At first glance it seems like they are synonyms, but there is a big difference between these two concepts.
Anyone who study or practise buddhism know that the insight teaching of buddha DO NOT teaches Reincarnation but Rebirth
The reincarnation idea is to believe in a soul or a being, separate from the body. At the death of the physical body, this soul is said to move into another state and then enter a womb to be born again.
In Buddhism there is no soul, no self,no attachment,then what can be re-incarned?
Buddha clearly taught that there is no inherent self, no soul, no tangible ego _(Anatman). Yet he also taught rebirth. The Hindu teachings of his time taught reincarnation. Many people today (including ofcause JOSS STICK Buddhists) seem to have an almost superstitious belief in "their" past lives, as if there were a self that could have had them.
In contrast, Buddhism teaches the doctrine of rebirth. Between a series of lifetimes there is a relationship of causality, not of identity. To make this more clear, let's use the example of the falling dominos. If I place a series of dominos standing up in line next to each other, and I strike the first one to make it fall down, this causes the second one to fall down, and the next, until the last in line falls down. The fall of the first domino is the cause of the fall of the last one, but there is not a shared identity between the first and the last domino.
When somebody dies, rebirth is caused by the continuation of the mental processes of the dead person in a new body. The new person however is not identical to the one that left the previous body (a lot of causes and conditions come into play to shape this new being), nor a completely different person (because of causality relation).
Dogen Zenji said
"Firewood becomes ash and does not become firewood again.
In just the same way you do not return to birth after death
Death is an expression complete in this moment
Birth is an expression complete in this moment." -
HUmans rebirth. Gods Incarnate.
-
Our Mind, that carries over from life to life has no beginning - its continuity is infinite. Each moment of our Mind is a continuation of the previous moment. Who we are and what we think and feel depends on who we were yesterday. Our present Mind is a continuation of the past Mind. One moment of our Mind was caused by the previous moment of our Mind. This continuity can be traced back to childhood and even to when we were a fetus in our Mother's womb. Even before the time of conception, our mind-stream existed in another body.
Using the example of a number line, looking left from position zero, there is no first negative number, and looking right, there is no highest last number - one more can always be added. Likewise, our mind-stream has no beginning or end. We all have had countless past rebirths, and our Mind will continue to exist infinitely. By purifying our mind-stream, we can make our future existence better and better.
"According to Buddhism, all component or conditioned things are impermanent and in a constant state of flux. Therefore in opposition,the existence of an unchanging and independent self, in this world,is denied since it goes against the Buddhist principle of selflessness (anatta). Buddhists hold that the notion of a permanent self is one of the main root causes for the wars and conflicts in human history, and that by living by anatta or not-self, we may go beyond our mundane desires. The ineffable state of Nirvana is solely recognized as being distinct. Conventionally speaking though, the soul or self for Buddhists is spoken of socially but under the conviction that we are dependent on others and not independent unchanging selfs. At death the body & mind disintegrates, but if the disintegrating mind contains any remaining traces of karma,it will cause the continuity of the consciousness to bounce back an arising mind to an awaiting being (i.e. a fetus developing the ability to harbor conciousness). Thus Buddhists teach that a reborn being is neither entirely different nor exactly the same
Everything in the Universe, be it physical (from the smallest cells of our bodies to the biggest stars) or mental (such as the thoughts running through our minds), constantly undergo change, never staying the same for even just two consecutive split seconds. As everything is a result or effect of changing causes and conditions, everything changes constantly.
The smallest component of the most "solid" thing is only a ball of fluxing energy. The untrained Mind is even much more fickle and prone to change, having no stability of a fixed self-nature. All living and non-living elements are thus subject to decay and destruction. The is the law of natural it is neutral and unbiased. It is ungoverned by any higher power - as things decay, as well as become renewed naturally.(which has been proven by science) -
Everything in the Universe is compounded or made up of parts, which are in turn made up of parts, which are in turn made up of smaller and smaller parts. Each of these parts changes constantly - sometimes grossly but mostly subtly (to our senses). There is no single fixed component of anything that is not subject to change. A thing exists only when the parts that constitute it come together. Thus, there is no fixed unchanging self within anything - this is called impersonality. It also means that everything is interconnected and interdependent upon each other. Nothing exists on its own as a separate self.
If a real or permanent self exists, one should be able to identify it. However, one's body changes unceasingly from second to second from birth to death. The Mind changes even much more rapidly. Thus, we cannot say the body, Mind or any particular combination of the two is one's self. Neither can an independent self exist as both the body and Mind depend on many factors to exist. As the so-called self is just a collection of conditioned and changing physical and mental factors, there is no real or concrete element of self in us.
Today science has tell us that nothing is created nor destroyed they just changing from one form to another form.
Take for example a candle flame.The candle is like a body hosting the flame(mind/consciousness))When the candle is fully consumed the flame will gone.So is this to say that the flame is dead ? Gone forever?Well.. as science has tell us that nothing is created nor destroyed they just changing from one form to another form.the flame is not destroyed is just that the elements that make up the flame disintegrate and these molecules will continue in the process of changing form.When encountering a similar condition the flame will be formed again.
Just like oxygen to carbon dioxide and so on and so fornth
just like kinetic energry to potential energry and so on and so fornth(they don't disappear or die off but constantly changing from one form to another form
Our mind/consciousness which are formless elements are neither created nor destroyed -
Energy cannot be destroyed
It just changes from 1 form to another
Reincarnation...I think tibetan buddhism is popular in it
-
Let me define first, what is meant by Reincarnation and Rebirth in this topic so as not to be confused.Originally posted by shade343:HUmans rebirth. Gods Incarnate.
Reincarnation means a soul, an ego - being permanent - becomes reincarnated elsewhere.
In Buddhism, under the light of the doctrine of No-self, and through meditation we will find out that there is no such thing as a permanent self, an ego, that undergoes reincarnation. That all along is an illusion, and it is because of that illusion, we are being stuck on samara and being reborn in the samsaric planes.
Life (Self) is nothing other than the continuous flow of the Now Moment.
The Now Moment ceases as it arises. This moment must completely ceased
and serves as the CAUSE for the next moment to arise.
Therefore Self is a process of series Self1, Self2, Self3, Self4, Self5, Self6...etc
A fixed entity 'Self' does not exist, what really exists is a momentary Self.
Under deep meditation, one is able to observe and sense the karmic and mental factors from moment to moment,
it is these factors that are succeeded from moment to moment and life and life but not a fixed entity.
When the karmic and mental factors subsides, it is known as "The True and Only (and Inherently egoless) Conscious Light (Itself)".
- Thusness
What is Rebirth? It is very simple, in fact rebirth happens every moment, ever instant, now. Rebirth happens every moment in our life.
Rebirth is a nature of Reality - that everything is in a constant flux, impermanent, without a self. It is impossible to say that Humans reborn, then Gods or Buddhas reincarnate. There is no such thing. Secondly, Gods in Buddhism still belong to the 6 realms of Samsara, undergoing rebirth in the samsaric planes.
All mainstream authentic Buddhism, including Tibetan Buddhism, does not hold on the false idea of an 'atman' undergoing reincarnation.Originally posted by maggot:Energy cannot be destroyed
It just changes from 1 form to another
Reincarnation...I think tibetan buddhism is popular in it
Sometimes you may find 'Reincarnation' mentioned in Buddhist books, but it really means 'rebirth'. It is because many people oversee the difference between these two terms.
Due to illusion, our egoic consciousness (7th consciousness) is reborn again, but this rebirth consciousness is also conditioned arising, empty. -
u have given a very clear and good explanation hope tat it will be useful for maggot in understanding the concept of rebirthOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:All mainstream authentic Buddhism, including Tibetan Buddhism, does not hold on the false idea of an 'atman' undergoing reincarnation.
Sometimes you may find 'Reincarnation' mentioned in Buddhist books, but it really means 'rebirth'. It is because many people oversee the difference between these two terms.
Due to illusion, our egoic consciousness (7th consciousness) is reborn again, but this rebirth consciousness is also conditioned arising, empty. -
Looking with sheer logic, we see that functioning phenomena all come from their own continuities, from previous moments of something in the same category of phenomenon. For example, a physical phenomenon, be it matter or energy, comes from the previous moment of that matter or energy. It is a continuum
Take anger as an example. We can talk of the physical energy we feel when we are angry, that is one thing. However, consider the mental activity of experiencing anger – experiencing the arising of the emotion and the conscious or unconscious awareness of it. An individual’s experiencing of anger has its own prior moments of continuity within this lifetime, but where did it come from before that? Either it has to come from the parents, and there seems to be no mechanism to describe how that happens.Actually it comes from its own prior moment of continuity. The theory of rebirth explains just this.
For another example we may try to understand rebirth with the analogy of a movie. Just as a movie is a continuity of the frames of film, our mental continuums or mind-streams are continuities of everchanging moments of awareness of phenomena within a lifetime and from one life to the next. There is not a solid, findable, entity, such as "me" or "my mind," that gets reborn. Rebirth IS NOT like the analogy of a little statue sitting on a conveyor belt, going from one life to the next. Rather, it is like a movie, something that is constantly changing. Each frame is different but there is continuity in it. One frame is related to the next. Similarly, there is a constantly changing continuity of moments of awareness of phenomena, even if some of those moments are unconscious. Further, just as all movies are not the same movie, although they are all movies, likewise all mental continuums or "minds" are not one mind. There are a countless number of individual streams of continuity of awareness of phenomena. -
Originally posted by neutral_onliner:
So those say someone is the "X" number of reincarnation XXXXXXXX of "so and so" is out to con money?
u have given a very clear and good explanation hope tat it will be useful for [b]maggot in understanding the concept of rebirth [/b] -
Again, the analogy of rebirth IS NOT that of some soul, like a concrete little statue or person, traveling on a conveyor belt from one lifetime to another. The conveyor belt represents time and the image it implies is of some solid thing, a fixed personality or soul called "me" passing through time: "Now I am young, now I am old; now I am in this life, now I am in that life." This is not the Buddhist concept of rebirth. Rather, the analogy is like that of a movie. There is a continuity with a movie; the frames form a continuity.Originally posted by maggot:So those say someone is the "X" number of reincarnation XXXXXXXX of "so and so" is out to con money?
Neither does Buddhism say that I become you, or that we are all one. If we were all one, and I am you, then if we are both hungry, you can wait in the car white I go to eat. It is not like that. We each have our own individual streams of continuity. The sequence in my movie is not going to turn into your movie, but our lives proceed like movies in the sense that they are not concrete and fixed. Life goes on from one frame to another. It follows a sequence, according to karma, and thus forms a continuity. -
Just wondering anyone can enlighten me on how "so and so" find out "so and so" is the "X" th rebirth of "so and so"
-
Even if someone were to have the powers to find out you are that 'X', it doesn't mean that reincarnation has taken place instead of rebirth.Originally posted by maggot:Just wondering anyone can enlighten me on how "so and so" find out "so and so" is the "X" th rebirth of "so and so"
Similarly, although a Self does not exist even in our daily life, we can recognise each other. Doesn't mean that there is No Self, then we no longer are able to recognise each other's identity.
But what Buddhism is saying that on a HIGHER LEVEL (Ultimate Reality), even right now, right here, every moment it is constantly changing, we are constantly undergoing rebirth without a permanent self.
So in Buddhism we have to recognise the difference of conventional reality and ultimate reality - otherwise it will cause a lot of confusion. -
In the bardo, one will be attracted to a copulating male and female. At this stage, a kind of small death from the bardo occurs. The reverse process as described above in the 'visions' is experienced while the most subtle body / mind is connecting to the fertilised egg. With this, contact to a subtle and gross body is established, and gradually the subtle and gross levels of mind will arise as well. If one is attracted to the female, one will be reborn as a male and vice versa.
"Ordinarily, it is difficult to remember one's past life. Such recollections seem to be more vivid when the child is very young, such as two or three, and in some cases even younger. ...When the present body is fully formed, the ability to recall past life seems to diminish.
The mental associations with this life become increasingly dominant. There is a close relationship during the first few years of one's life with the continuum of consciousness from the previous life. But as experiences of this life become more developed and elaborate, they dominate.
It is also possible within this lifetime to enhance the power of the mind, enabling one to reaccess memories from previous lives. Such recollection tends to be more accessible during meditative experiences in the dream state. Once one has accessed memories of previous lives in the dream state, one gradually recalls them in the waking state."
From Consciousness at the Crossroads: Conversations with The Dalai Lama on Brain Science and Buddhism -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:"If you look deeply into the palm of your hand, you will see your parents and all generations of your ancestors. All of them are alive in this moment. Each is present in your body. You are the continuation of each of these people. To be born means that something which did not exist comes into existence. But the day we are "born" is not our beginning. It is a day of continuation. But that hould not make us less happy when we celebrate our "Happy Continuation Day."
Since we are never born, how can we cease to be? This is what the Heart Sutra reveals to us. When we have a tangible experience of non-birth and non-death, we know ourselves beyond duality. The meditation on "no separate self" is one way to pass through the gate of birth and death.
Your hand proves that you have never been born and you will never die. The thread of life has never been interrupted from time without beginning until now. Previous generations, all the way back to single-celled beings, are present in your hand at this moment. You can observe and experience this. Your hand is always available as a subject for meditation. "
Present Moment, Wonderful Moment by Thich Nhat Hanh -
what does "bardo" mean?
-
Bardo means the intermediate stage - usually the gap between death and rebirth. Often we heard of many Near Death Experience cases. These people have went to the bardo stages and came back.Originally posted by la lapine blanche:what does "bardo" mean?
But even sleep is a kind of bardo.
The sanskrit equivalent would be 'antarabhava'. -
-
Me quite confuse....can someone draw up a chart to show the difference between reincarnation and rebirth? Not identical and not different means what? hmm....
-
In short:Originally posted by laoda99:Me quite confuse....can someone draw up a chart to show the difference between reincarnation and rebirth? Not identical and not different means what? hmm....
in Reincarnation theory, there is permanency to self.
In Buddhism there is no permanence (impermanence) and there is no self.
All is conditioned arisings, arising out of cause and conditions. Even your personality, that which you perceive to be yourself, is ever changing and you cannot guarantee you'll be living the way you are today in the future. Even the personality is conditioned arising. It is ever fluctuating: no two moments are the same, it is always changing, and changing. -
im quite confused too, especially in respect to rebirth of one person from one realm of existence to another say a higher realm.Originally posted by laoda99:Me quite confuse....can someone draw up a chart to show the difference between reincarnation and rebirth?
i can somehow understand its like a clone, of a person.
but if buddha rebirth into a higher realm, is that buddha not the same buddha as the one that sat below a tree a long time ago? -
Just visualise that even right now, that we are constantly being reborn and are succeeded moment to moment. In Buddhism rebirth happens every moment in life. There is no two moments that are the same.Originally posted by Ito_^:im quite confused too, especially in respect to rebirth of one person from one realm of existence to another say a higher realm.
i can somehow understand its like a clone, of a person.
but if buddha rebirth into a higher realm, is that buddha not the same buddha as the one that sat below a tree a long time ago?
Life (Self) is nothing other than the continuous flow of the Now Moment.
The Now Moment ceases as it arises. This moment must completely ceased
and serves as the CAUSE for the next moment to arise.
Therefore Self is a process of series Self1, Self2, Self3, Self4, Self5, Self6...etc
A fixed entity 'Self' does not exist, what really exists is a momentary Self.
Under deep meditation, one is able to observe and sense the karmic and mental factors from moment to moment,
it is these factors that are succeeded from moment to moment and life and life but not a fixed entity.
When the karmic and mental factors subsides, it is known as "The True and Only (and Inherently egoless) Conscious Light (Itself)".
- Thusness -
so in short...no two selfs are the sameOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:In short:
in Reincarnation theory, there is permanency to self.
In Buddhism there is no permanence (impermanence) and there is no self.
All is conditioned arisings, arising out of cause and conditions. Even your personality, that which you perceive to be yourself, is ever changing and you cannot guarantee you'll be living the way you are today in the future. Even the personality is conditioned arising. It is ever fluctuating: no two moments are the same, it is always changing, and changing.
so i wanna ask abt karma....if no two selfs are the same....how can i have bad karma if the previous self do evil? why should i be responsible for tat? -
It is not a clone, the conciousness changes a physical body (Just like changing cloth).
Buddha is out of the cycle of Rebirth or Samsara. This is basically what we as a buddhist hopes to achieve. There is no birth and death, good and bad, here and there. past and future, big or small in the state of ONENESS - Enlightenment.Originally posted by Ito_^:im quite confused too, especially in respect to rebirth of one person from one realm of existence to another say a higher realm.
i can somehow understand its like a clone, of a person.
but if buddha rebirth into a higher realm, is that buddha not the same buddha as the one that sat below a tree a long time ago? -
analogy la.Originally posted by concerned_man:It is not a clone, the conciousness changes a physical body (Just like changing cloth). -
It is not that this self takes the karma of your previous self. Anyway this splitting into self1, self2, is just a way to show - in reality there is no division. It is spontaneously arising and there is no self to be found.Originally posted by laoda99:so in short...no two selfs are the same
so i wanna ask abt karma....if no two selfs are the same....how can i have bad karma if the previous self do evil? why should i be responsible for tat?
There is the succession of the karmic factors, the karmic effect is itself ever fluctuating, but in fact no one bears the karmic effect because there is no self.
"Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found
The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:
Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,
The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen.
No doer of the deeds is found,
No one who ever reaps their fruits,
Empty phenomena roll on,
This view alone is right and true.
No god, no Brahma, may be called,
The maker of this wheel of life,
Empty phenomena roll on,
Dependent on conditions all."
- Visuddhimagga XVI 90
It is conditioned arising - karmic factors succeeded from the previous moment.