Is Rebirth NOT Reincarnation !
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hmm........if there are no self.....can there be no karmic effects as well? Everything is just illusion.....Originally posted by An Eternal Now:It is not that this self takes the karma of your previous self. Anyway this splitting into self1, self2, is just a way to show - in reality there is no division. It is spontaneously arising and there is no self to be found.
But you ARE the succession of the karmic factors, the karmic effect is itself ever fluctuating, and in fact no one bears the karmic effect because there is no self.
"Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found
The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:
Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,
The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen.
No doer of the deeds is found,
No one who ever reaps their fruits,
Empty phenomena roll on,
This view alone is right and true.
No god, no Brahma, may be called,
The maker of this wheel of life,
Empty phenomena roll on,
Dependent on conditions all."
- Visuddhimagga XVI 90
It is conditioned arising - karmic factors succeeded from the previous moment. -
this is not wat it meantOriginally posted by laoda99:hmm........if there are no self.....can there be no karmic effects as well? Everything is just illusion.....
u need to understand emptiness -
No permanent self is pertaining to our body and thoughts. They are not permanent and constantly changing within secs. The one second ago you is not the same as one sec after you.
But the conciousness (our mind, in chinese XIN) is always there. Karmic seeds actually planted in our mind and carries with it. Whenever favourable conditions arises for the seed, consequence will occur.
This is why, consequences may realise within one, two, three or many lifetimes later depending on variable conditions.Originally posted by laoda99:so in short...no two selfs are the same
so i wanna ask abt karma....if no two selfs are the same....how can i have bad karma if the previous self do evil? why should i be responsible for tat? -
consciousness is permanent? but self if not right? so this consciousness can be pass to another?Originally posted by concerned_man:No permanent self is pertaining to our body and thoughts. They are not permanent and constantly changing within secs. The one second ago you is not the same as one sec after you.
But the conciousness (our mind, in chinese XIN) is always there. Karmic seeds actually planted in our mind and carries with it. Whenever favourable conditions arises for the seed, consequence will occur.
This is why, consequences may realise within one, two, three or many lifetimes later depending on variable conditions. -
No, pls read again:Originally posted by laoda99:hmm........if there are no self.....can there be no karmic effects as well? Everything is just illusion.....
"Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found
The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:
Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,
The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen.
No doer of the deeds is found,
No one who ever reaps their fruits,
Empty phenomena roll on,
This view alone is right and true.
No god, no Brahma, may be called,
The maker of this wheel of life,
Empty phenomena roll on,
Dependent on conditions all."
- Visuddhimagga XVI 90
To say otherwise would be nihilism.
What is meant is that the phenomena is empty, not like a 'nothingness', but it means it is dependant on conditions, it cannot be understood in terms of a 'self' or a 'fixed entity'. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
so in short u are saying suffering exists but the sufferer does not exist....
No, pls read again:
"[b]Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found
The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:
Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,
The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen.
To say otherwise would be nihilism.[/b]
but how can one say he suffer and say he have karmic effects when he himself dun exist at all? Afterall, since the self is non-existent, why should we be bothered by suffering at all...??? -
Hi An Eternal Now
the more we talk the more confused they r.As i said learning must be step by step.Don u think they need to noe wat is emptiness first ? -
Originally posted by neutral_onliner:
Ya agreed.
Hi[b] An Eternal Now
the more we talk the more confused they r.As i said learning must be step by step.Don u think they need to noe wat is emptiness first ? [/b] -
no it cannot pass to another as it carries one's unique karmic seeds. We are all different because our karmas are different and the way we think is different. This is why there is diversity.Originally posted by laoda99:consciousness is permanent? but self if not right? so this consciousness can be pass to another?
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ok....so now....the karmic seeds can be pass from who to who...since no self is the same.....i am confused?!!!Originally posted by concerned_man:no it cannot pass to another as it carries one's unique karmic seeds. We are all different because our karmas are different and the way we think is different. This is why there is diversity. -
i think u will cause confusion unless they fully understand wat karma isOriginally posted by concerned_man:no it cannot pass to another as it carries one's unique karmic seeds. We are all different because our karmas are different and the way we think is different. This is why there is diversity. -
Originally posted by laoda99:
What is Reborn ?
so in short...no two selfs are the same
so i wanna ask abt karma....if no two selfs are the same....how can i have bad karma if the previous self do evil? why should i be responsible for tat?[/b]
A very good, classic & somewhat complex question!
In brevity:
Causes & Conditioning is passed on & reborn ...
No being, substance, soul or self is reborn as such assumed constant entity or core substance has never existed or ever been observed in the first place...
So how can it then ever be 'reborn' !!!
Existence is a chain of discrete mental states (dhammas) all new yet conditioned
by the prior, both proximate and far.
Just like the pearl in a necklace is in contact with the next & next & next etc.
In that way do the prior mental moment condition the next;
Some Examples:
If angry now in this moment one cannot be happy in the immediate next moment,
but is conditioned to be either angry also there or indifferent!
If glad now in this moment one cannot be angry in the immediate next moment,
but is conditioned to be either glad also there or indifferent!
One is 'reborn' in every moment of life!
Frequency = ~ billions/second!
The conditioning in the terminal life moment is crucial as it determines the next state:
If having killed many beings in life how then to die in a peaceful & calm state ?
Due to the agitation of remorse & regrets in death moment => bad state rebirth.
If having given & done much good in life it is easy to die in peaceful state !
Due to the satisfied serene content in death moment => good state rebirth.
Mind or consciousness descends & settles at a new level corresponding or fitting
to its last mixture of characteristics. Very mechanic & not metaphysical at all!
Like a protein molecule sediments in a mixed solution according to its boyancy.
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The Buddha's vsion of the world is not something we must accept thru blind faith.Hw could blind faith equate to the wisdom of enlightenment?There's a truth contained in the teachings tat can only be discovered thru critical reasoning & direct experience.It's therefore important to ask 'How is it reasonable to believe in rebirth?'
It seems tat if we study tis question without prejudice we will come to understand tat rebirth is the onli vaild way to account for the reality of consciousness. -
The Buddha asks us not to attach to the five aggregates through which we perceive the world because they induce suffering. We must think of these aggregates as modes which in Sanskrit is called, skandha.
The five modes are namely, appearance, sensation, concepts, impressions, and consciousness.
According to the Buddha, we take these five modes to be who they really are. When we do this, consciousness, which is the most subtle mode of all, becomes established as subject & object . As a result, so to speak, consciousness stores the results of these five modes, including itself, because it is completely mutable.
Thus, consciousness becomes habituated to cling to the five aggregates which include itself. When we die, this same consciousness has a propensity to continue the same course of being.
According to the Buddha, this consciousness is what gets reborn. It can have an affinity for a particular embryo or many kinds of other forms. When rebirth happens consciousness then gets interiorized when conception takes place between the egg and the sperm.
Right now, as you read this, you are such a consciousness which is interiorized in a body existing in five modes. The Buddha calls our present state of being, in which our previous consciousness has been reborn and interiorized into our present body, "old karma". The Buddha says this is suffering because we are subsisting on what we truly are not.
How can we stop becoming reborn into states of being which are suffering? The Buddha tells us that we must turn our consciousness to that which is unestablished; which is beyond the five modes, this being who we truly are.
Consciousness which turns to what is unestablished commences in nirvana. This means that consciousness has nothing objective upon which it might subsist. Since consciousness is subject & object based, without an object it naturally ceases. What is thus revealed, as a result of its cessation, is the freedom of oneself as pure mind. Pure mind is, simply put, spiritual power. With such power, this is true liberation from any possibility of rebirth. -
Originally posted by laoda99:
i try seldom to use "no" self. but use Not self instead. Not the self is better than "no", which is nihilism, annihilationism.
hmm........if there are no self.....can there be no karmic effects as well? Everything is just illusion.....
like concerned-man said, self is changing all the time, hence it's not the real and unchanging self, hence not self. the real self is the original non-discriminating, non attached, non-labeling ..pure self. 5 year old when one see the gange river and the now when an old man see the gange river, all is changing be it the labelling mind or the river itself. but the original pure seeing itself never change, it's just seeing, without discrimnation. if one can return to that, one's very near enlightenment.
very complicated, hence Buddha was slience, when ask if there's self or not.
just remember, the Buddha rejected both extremes of eternalism and nihilism.
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Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it only transforms (e.g., thermo-energy, nuclear energy, solar energy, etc.). Matter and Energy have been proven to be interchangeable (Atomic physics and the atomic bomb, ‘Fission’ & ‘Fusion’). All matter is composed of this same basic reality, pure energy.
To the scientist, ‘matter’ is energy in the state of stress, and change without real substance.
To the psychologist, ‘psyche’ or ‘mind’ is no more a fixed entity.
A person is comprised of a psychophysical unit of matter and mind, but mind or 'psyche' is not a soul or a 'self,' in the sense of an enduring entity, something ready-made and permanent.
Mind is a force, a dynamic continuum capable of storing up memories not only of this life but also of past lives or experience. -
From the Buddhist point of view, the main argument that "establishes" rebirth is one based on a profound understanding, of the continuity of mind. Where does consciousness come from? It cannot arise out of nowhere. A moment of consciousness cannot be produced without the moment of consciousness that immediately preceded it. His Holiness the Dalai Lama explains this complex process in this way
"The basis on which Buddhists accept the concept of rebirth is principally the continuity of consciousness. Take the material world as an example: all the elements in our present universe, even down to a microscopic level, can be traced back, we believe, to an origin, an initial point where all the elements of the material world are condensed into what are technically known as 'space particles.' These particles, in turn, are the state which is the result of the disintegration of a previous universe. So there is a constant cycle, in which the universe evolves and disintegrates, and then comes back again into being.
Now mind is very similar. The fact that we possess something called 'mind or consciousness' is quite obvious, since our experience testifies to its presence. Then it is also evident, again from our own experience, that what we call 'mind or consciousness' is something which is subject to change when it is exposed to different conditions and circumstances. This shows us its moment to moment nature, its susceptibility to change.
Another fact that is obvious is that gross levels of 'mind or consciousness' are, intimately linked, with physiological states of the body, and are, in fact, dependent on them. But there must be some basis, energy, or source, which allows mind, when interacting with material particles, to be capable of producing conscious living beings.
Just like the material plane, this too must have its continuum in the past. So if you trace our present mind or consciousness back, then you will find that you are tracing the origin of the continuity of mind, just like the origin of the material universe, into an infinite dimension; it is, as you will see, beginningless.
Therefore there must be successive rebirths that allow that continuum of mind to be there.
Buddhism believes in universal causation, that everything is subject to change, and to causes and conditions. So there is no place given to a divine creator, nor to beings who are self-created; rather everything arises as a consequence of causes and conditions. So mind, or consciousness, too comes into being as a result of its previous instants.
When we talk of causes and conditions, there are two principal types: substantial causes, the stuff from which something is produced, and cooperative factors, which contribute towards that causation. In the case of mind and body, although one can affect the other, one cannot become the substance of the other .Â… Mind and matter, although dependent on one another, cannot serve as substantial causes for each other.
This is the basis on which Buddhism accepts rebirth." -
Buddha rejected the 2 extremes of 'Permanent Self', and 'Annihilation' concepts.
A person, or Body & Mind, is but Five Aggregates (body, feeling, perception, thought formation, and consciousness) of CLINGING (to 'self', or a self-image hologram). In reality, there is not a true permanent 'self' entity. Clinging to the 'self' concept is the root of suffering, as it creates an impulse to condition that life to roll on and on, with the craving force of greed, hatred, and delusion. This results in pleasure, and pain, towards this illusive 'self' entity, as my pleasure (happiness), and my pain (suffering). Can such pleasure or pain truly be owned and labeled as yours or mine? -
Suppose a person is about to die. This critical stage may be compared to the flickering of a lamp just before it is extinguished.
To this dying man is presented by a Kamma, a Kamma Nimitta, or Gati Nimitta.
By Kamma is here meant some good or bad action committed during his lifetime, or immediately before his dying moment. Kamma Nimitta, or symbol, means a mental reproduction of any sight, sound, smell, taste, touch or idea which dominated at the time of the commission of some salient activity, good or bad, - such as a vision of knives or dying animals, in the case of a butcher, patients, in the case of a kind physician: an object of worship, in the case of a devotee and so forth.
By Gati Nimitta, or "symbol of destiny" is a meant some sign of the place where he is to take rebirth. Such a symbol frequently presents itself to dying persons and stamps its gladness or gloom upon their features. When these indications of the future birth occur, and if they are bad, they might at times be remedied. This is done by influencing the thoughts of the dying man. Such premonitory visions of destiny may be fire, forests, mountainous regions, a mother's womb, etc.
Death according to Buddhism is the cessation of the psycho-physical life of any one individual existence. It takes place by the passing away of vitality (ayu), i.e. psychic and physical life (jivitindriya), heat (usma) and consciousness (vinnana).
Death is not the complete annihilation of a being, for though the particular life-span ended, the force which hitherto actuated it is not destroyed.
Just as an electric light is the outward visible manifestations of invisible electric energy, even so we are the outward manifestations of invisible Kammic energy. The bulb may break, and the light may be extinguished, but the current remains and the light may be reproduced in another bulb. In the same way, the Kammic force remains undisturbed by the disintegration of the physical body, and the passing away of the present consciousness leads to the arising of a fresh one in another birth. But nothing unchangeable or permanent "passes" from the present to the future.
Just as the wheel rests on the ground only at one point even so, strictly speaking, we live only from one thought-moment. We are always in the present, and that present is ever slipping into the irrevocable past. Each momentary consciousness of this ever-changing life-process, on passing away, transmits its whole energy, all the indelibly recorded impressions, to its successor. Every fresh energy consciousness therefore consists of the potentialities of its predecessors and something more. At, death, the consciousness perishes, as truly is does every moment, only to give birth to another in a rebirth. This renewed consciousness inherits all the past experiences. As all impressions are indelibly recorded in the ever-changing palimpsest-like mind and as all potentialities are transmitted from life to life, irrespective of temporary physical disintegrations, reminiscence of past births or past incidents becomes a possibility. If memory depends solely on brain cells, it becomes an impossibility.
The continuity of the flux, at death, is unbroken in point of time, and there is no breach in the stream of consciousness. The only different between the passing of one thought to another in lifetime and of the dying thought-moment to the rebirth consciousness, is that in the latter case a marked perceptible physical death is patent to all. -
On the very night of His Enlightenment, during the first watch, the Buddha developed retrocognitive knowledge which enable Him to read His past lives.
"I recalled, "He declares, "my varied lot in former existences as follows: first one life, the two lives, then three, four, five, ten twenty to fifty lives; then a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, and so forth."
During the second watch the Buddha, with clairvoyant vision, perceived beings disappearing from one state of existence and reappearing in another. He beheld "the base and noble, the beautiful and ugly, the happy and miserable passing according to their deeds," etc.
There are the very first utterances of the Buddha regarding the question of rebirth. These textual references conclusively prove that the Buddha did not borrow this stern truth of rebirth from any pre-existing source, but spoke from personal knowledge - a knowledge which was supernormal, developed by Himself, and which could be developed by others as well.
In His first paean of joy (udana), the Buddha says,
"Through many a birth (anekajati) wandered I seeking the builder of this house. Sorrowful indeed is birth again and again (dukkha jati punappunam)."
In the Dhammacakka Sutta, His very first discourse, the Buddha, commenting on the Second Noble Truth, states Y'ayam tanha ponobhavika - "this very craving which leads to rebirth" And the Buddha concludes that discourse with the words - "Ayam antima jati natthi dani punabbhavo" - "This is my last rebirth. Now there is no more rebirth."