Nikaya
-
MN 44
Cula-vedalla Sutta
The Shorter Set of Questions-and-Answers
Translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS page: M i 299
------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------
Source: Transcribed from a file provided by
the translator.
------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------
Copyright © 1998 Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
Access to Insight edition © 1998
For free distribution. This work may be
republished, reformatted, reprinted, and
redistributed in any medium. It is the
author's wish, however, that any such
republication and redistribution be made
available to the public on a free and
unrestricted basis and that translations
and other derivative works be clearly
marked as such.
------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------
Translator's note: The Buddha praised
Dhammadinna the nun as the foremost Dhamma
teacher among his nun disciples. In this
discourse she answers questions put to her
by a layman — Visakha — who, according to
the commentary, was her former husband, a
merchant of Rajagaha, and a non-returner.
------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------
I have heard that on one occasion the
Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha in
the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Sanctuary.
Then Visakha the lay follower went to
Dhammadinna the nun and, on arrival, having
bowed down to her, sat to one side. As he
was sitting there he said to her, "'Self-
identification, self-identification,' it is
said, lady. Which self-identification is
described by the Blessed One?"
"There are these five clinging-aggregates,
friend Visakha: form as a clinging-
aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate,
perception as a clinging-aggregate,
fabrications as a clinging-aggregate,
consciousness as a clinging-aggregate.
These five clinging-aggregates are the
self-identification described by the
Blessed One."
Saying, "Yes, lady," Visakha the lay
follower delighted & rejoiced in what
Dhammadinna the nun had said. Then he asked
her a further question: "'The origination
of self-identification, the origination of
self-identification,' it is said, lady.
Which origination of self-identification is
described by the Blessed One?" -
"The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."
"'The cessation of self-identification, the cessation of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which cessation of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"
"The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving: This, friend Visakha, is the cessation of self-identification described by the Blessed One."
"'The way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification, the way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"
"Precisely this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration: This, friend Visakha, is the way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification described by the Blessed One."
"Is it the case, lady, that clinging is the same thing as the five clinging-aggregates or is it something separate?"
"Friend Visakha, neither is clinging the same thing as the five clinging-aggregates, nor is it something separate. Whatever desire & passion there is with regard to the five clinging-aggregates, that is the clinging there."
"But, lady, how does self-identification come about?"
"There is the case, friend Visakha, where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form.
"He assumes feeling to be the self...
"He assumes perception to be the self...
"He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self...
"He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. This is how self-identification comes about."
"But, lady, how does self-identification not come about?" -
"There is the case where a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — does not assume form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form.
"He does not assume feeling to be the self...
"He does not assume perception to be the self...
"He does not assume fabrications to be the self...
"He does not assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. This is how self-identification does not come about."
"Now, again, lady, what is the noble eightfold path?"
"This is the noble eightfold path, friend Visakha: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration."
"Is the noble eightfold path fabricated or unfabricated?"
"The noble eightfold path is fabricated."
"And are the three aggregates [of virtue, concentration, & discernment] included under the noble eightfold path, lady, or is the noble eightfold path included under the three aggregates?"
"The three aggregates are not included under the noble eightfold path, friend Visakha, but the noble eightfold path is included under the three aggregates. Right speech, right action, & right livelihood come under the aggregate of virtue. Right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration come under the aggregate of concentration. Right view & right resolve come under the aggregate of discernment."
"Now what is concentration, lady, what qualities are its themes, what qualities are its requisites, and what is its development?"
"Singleness of mind is concentration, friend Visakha; the four frames of reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its requisites; and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these qualities is its development." -
"Now, lady, what are fabrications?"
"These three fabrications, friend Visakha: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, & mental fabrications."
"But what are bodily fabrications? What are verbal fabrications? What are mental fabrications?"
"In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."
"But why are in-&-out breaths bodily fabrications? Why are directed thought & evaluation verbal fabrications? Why are perceptions & feelings mental fabrications?"
"In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."
"Now, lady, how does the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"
"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to attain the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am attaining the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have attained the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."
"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"
"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."1
"Now, lady, how does emergence from the cessation of perception & feeling come about?" -
"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to emerge from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."
"But when a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, which things arise first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"
"When a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications."
"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, lady, how many contacts make contact?"
"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, three contacts make contact: contact with emptiness, contact with the signless, & contact with the undirected."2
"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, lady, to what does his mind lean, to what does it tend, to what does it incline?"
"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, his mind leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion, inclines to seclusion."3
"Now, lady, how many kinds of feeling are there?"
"These three kinds of feeling: pleasant feeling, painful feeling, & neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling."
"What is pleasant feeling? What is painful feeling? What is neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?"
"Whatever is experienced physically or mentally as pleasant & gratifying is pleasant feeling. Whatever is experienced physically or mentally as painful & hurting is painful feeling. Whatever is experienced physically or mentally as neither gratifying nor hurting is neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling."
"In what way is pleasant feeling pleasant, lady, and in what way painful?"
"Pleasant feeling is pleasant in remaining, & painful in changing, friend Visakha. Painful feeling is painful in remaining & pleasant in changing. Neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling is pleasant in occurring together with knowledge, and painful in occurring without knowledge."
"What obsession gets obsessed with pleasant feeling? What obsession gets obsessed with painful feeling? What obsession gets obsessed with neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?"
"Passion-obsession gets obsessed with pleasant feeling. Resistance-obsession gets obsessed with painful feeling. Ignorance-obsession gets obsessed with neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling."
"Does passion-obsession get obsessed with all pleasant feeling? Does resistance-obsession get obsessed with all painful feeling? Does ignorance-obsession get obsessed with all neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?" -
"No..."
"But what is to be abandoned with regard to pleasant feeling? What is to be abandoned with regard to painful feeling? What is to be abandoned with regard to neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?"
"Passion-obsession is to be abandoned with regard to pleasant feeling. Resistance-obsession is to be abandoned with regard to painful feeling. Ignorance-obsession is to be abandoned with regard to neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling."
"Is passion-obsession to be abandoned with regard to all pleasant feeling? Is resistance-obsession to be abandoned with regard to all painful feeling? Is ignorance-obsession to be abandoned with regard to all neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?"
"No... There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With that he abandons passion. No passion-obsession gets obsessed there.4 There is the case where a monk considers, 'O when will I enter & remain in the dimension that those who are noble now enter & remain in?' And as he thus nurses this yearning for the unexcelled liberations, there arises within him sorrow based on that yearning. With that he abandons resistance. No resistance-obsession gets obsessed there.5 There is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. With that he abandons ignorance. No ignorance-obsession gets obsessed there."6
"Now what, lady, lies on the other side of pleasant feeling?"
"Passion lies on the other side of pleasant feeling."
"And what lies on the other side of painful feeling?"
"Resistance lies on the other side of painful feeling." 7
"What lies on the other side of neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?"
"Ignorance lies on the other side of neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling."
"What lies on the other side of ignorance?"
"Clear knowing lies on the other side of ignorance."
"What lies on the other side of clear knowing?"
"Release lies on the other side of clear knowing."
"What lies on the other side of release?"
"Unbinding lies on the other side of release."
"What lies on the other side of Unbinding?" -
"You've gone too far, friend Visakha. You can't keep holding on up to the limit of questions. For the holy life gains a footing in Unbinding, culminates in Unbinding, has Unbinding as its final end. If you wish, go to the Blessed One and ask him the meaning of these things. Whatever he says, that's how you should remember it."
Then Visakha the lay follower, delighting & rejoicing in what Dhammadinna the nun had said, bowed down to her and, keeping her to his right, went to the Blessed One. On arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he told the Blessed One the full extent of the conversation he had had with Dhammadinna the nun. When this was said, the Blessed One said to him, "Dhammadinna the nun is wise, Visakha, a woman of great discernment. If you had asked me those things, I would have answered you in the same way she did. That is the meaning of those things. That is how you should remember it."
That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Visakha the lay follower delighted in the Blessed One's words.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes
1. Verbal fabrication grows still on attaining the second jhana; bodily fabrication grows still on attaining the fourth jhana; mental fabrication grows still on attaining the cessation of perception & feeling.
2. Emptiness, the signless, & the undirected are names for a state of concentration that lies on the threshold of Unbinding. They differ only in how they are approached. According to the commentary, they color one's first apprehension of Unbinding: a meditator who has been focusing on the theme of inconstancy will first apprehend Unbinding as signless; one who has been focusing on the theme of stress will first apprehend it as undirected; one who has been focusing on the theme of not-self will first apprehend it as emptiness.
3. According to the commentary, "seclusion" here stands for Unbinding. On emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, and having had contact with emptiness/the signless/the undirected, the mind inclines naturally to a direct experience of Unbinding.
4. In other words, once the pleasure of the first jhana has been used as a basis for giving rise to the discernment that leads to arahantship, the mind has no further passion-obsession with pleasant feeling. (The commentary says that this is true at attainment of non-returning, but this must be a mistake, as non-returners are still subject to passion for form and formless phenomena.)
5. Once this sorrow has been used as a basis for giving rise to the discernment that leads to non-returning, the mind has no further resistance-obsession with painful feeling.
6. Once this feeling of neither pleasure nor pain has been used as a basis for giving rise to the discernment that leads to arahantship, the mind has no further ignorance-obsession with feelings of neither pleasure nor pain.
7. This reading follows the Thai edition of the Pali canon. The PTS edition of the Pali canon gives the first two questions and answers in this exchange as follows:
"Now what, lady, lies on the other side of pleasant feeling?"
"Painful feeling lies on the other side of pleasant feeling."
"And what lies on the other side of painful feeling?"
"Pleasant feeling lies on the other side of painful feeling."
For some reason, the editors of neither edition seem to have been aware of the reading in the other edition. -
I hope this provide some insight to the "food for meditation" for people who seriously interested in meditation .
New post I will be coming out will be on the other aspect of Buddha's teaching and
will be starting on the Mahayana meditation method
maybe Thusness can share on the comments on this teachings -
Hi Bohiruci,
I am not familiar with the Culavedalla Sutta so I will just share what is in my mind after reading it.
First, I think it is unlikely that Visakha, who has attained the stage of Anagami, is confused with what Buddha meant by the term "self". I will take it that Visakha is seeking for the deepest level of understanding on the doctrine of ‘no-self’ from sravaka viewpoint -- progressing from a third stage of holiness to the final stage of Arahatship that Dhammadinna has attained.
If we were to ask what is ‘self’? A series of questions may follow like the case of Visakha. This form of enquiries will continue without end like a never ending samsaric cycle. It is analogous to rebirth where the previous question serves as the cause and the answer serves as condition for the next question to arise. We witness old mental tendencies in action, replacing one fragment of thought with another fragment where every fragment is unsatisfactory during the process of enquiry. How is it that we can't even know who we really are? What exactly is lacking? If we were to replace the question to “without using any languages, any symbols to represent ‘I’, how is ‘I’ experienced?” To answer such a question, the old chain-cycle habit of answering must come to a halt. To answer, the mind cannot continue its chats. The mind must be silent, raw, undefined, direct and attentive – it must be mindful. A question arises, the answer isn’t made up of words but rather a raw direct naked experience of what it is, i.e., using mindfulness as the way of knowing.
The entire teaching of Buddha is very much alive. When Buddha taught us ‘impermanence’ and ‘interdependence’, he does not only teach us the analytical and logical mode of knowing the seals but also the direct mode of knowing -- being participative and experiential in all moments. He taught us the four foundation of mindfulness that brings about clear knowing that eventually leads to nirvana. It is amazing to realise the immense clarity that arises in mindfulness, knowing that arises not out measurement and comparision. Apply mindfulness as the mode of knowing in all that can be experienced – body, feeling, perception, mental formation and consciousness. Leave nothing out. It is through this sort of concentrated mindfulness of phenomena that can give rise to the flow of clear knowingness that comes only with the absence of words, labels and perceptions. This signless clear knowingness is release, it is bliss, it is what that leads to the other side of unbinding:
"What lies on the other side of ignorance?"
"Clear knowing lies on the other side of ignorance."
"What lies on the other side of clear knowing?"
"Release lies on the other side of clear knowing."
"What lies on the other side of release?"
"Unbinding lies on the other side of release."
"What lies on the other side of Unbinding?"
-- Cula-vedalla Sutta -
thats great ,thusnessOriginally posted by Thusness:Hi Bohiruci,
I am not familiar with the Culavedalla Sutta so I will just share what is in my mind after reading it.
First, I think it is unlikely that Visakha, who has attained the stage of Anagami, is confused with what Buddha meant by the term "self". I will take it that Visakha is seeking for the deepest level of understanding on the doctrine of ‘no-self’ from sravaka viewpoint -- progressing from a third stage of holiness to the final stage of Arahatship that Dhammadinna has attained.
If we were to ask what is ‘self’? A series of questions may follow like the case of Visakha. This form of enquiries will continue without end like a never ending samsaric cycle. It is analogous to rebirth where the previous question serves as the cause and the answer serves as condition for the next question to arise. We witness old mental tendencies in action, replacing one fragment of thought with another fragment where every fragment is unsatisfactory during the process of enquiry. How is it that we can't even know who we really are? What exactly is lacking? If we were to replace the question to “without using any languages, any symbols to represent ‘I’, how is ‘I’ experienced?” To answer such a question, the old chain-cycle habit of answering must come to a halt. To answer, the mind cannot continue its chats. The mind must be silent, raw, undefined, direct and attentive – it must be mindful. A question arises, the answer isn’t made up of words but rather a raw direct naked experience of what it is, i.e., using mindfulness as the way of knowing.
The entire teaching of Buddha is very much alive. When Buddha taught us ‘impermanence’ and ‘interdependence’, he does not only teach us the analytical and logical mode of knowing the seals but also the direct mode of knowing -- being participative and experiential in all moments. He taught us the four foundation of mindfulness that brings about clear knowing that eventually leads to nirvana. It is amazing to realise the immense clarity that arises in mindfulness, knowing that arises not out measurement and comparision. Apply mindfulness as the mode of knowing in all that can be experienced – body, feeling, perception, mental formation and consciousness. Leave nothing out. It is through this sort of concentrated mindfulness of phenomena that can give rise to the flow of clear knowingness that comes only with the absence of words, labels and perceptions. This signless clear knowingness is release, it is bliss, it is what that leads to the other side of unbinding:
"What lies on the other side of ignorance?"
"Clear knowing lies on the other side of ignorance."
"What lies on the other side of clear knowing?"
"Release lies on the other side of clear knowing."
"What lies on the other side of release?"
"Unbinding lies on the other side of release."
"What lies on the other side of Unbinding?"
-- Cula-vedalla Sutta
at least you saw something I have fail
-
[qutoe]"The three aggregates are not included under the noble eightfold path, friend Visakha, but the noble eightfold path is included under the three aggregates. Right speech, right action, & right livelihood come under the aggregate of virtue. Right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration come under the aggregate of concentration. Right view & right resolve come under the aggregate of discernment.";[/quote]
Virtue , Concentration and Discernment
Indeed this are 3 aggregates of the noble eightfold path
By practising virtue aggregates ,we will not harm sentient beings and build on trust to live in the modern society
By practising the Concentration aggregates we explore the spiritual aspect of our practise and handle every problem in life with great wisdom and less emotional -motivated rash moves
By practising discernment we direct our practise to the correct direction -
Ogha-tarana Sutta
Crossing over the Flood
Translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS page: S i 1
CDB i 89
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Transcribed from a file provided by the translator.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright © 1998 Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
Access to Insight edition © 1998
For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Translator's note: This discourse opens the Samyutta Nikaya with a paradox. The Commentary informs us that the Buddha teaches the devata in terms of the paradox in order to subdue her pride. To give this paradox some context, you might want to read other passages from the Canon that discuss right effort.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then a certain devata, in the far extreme of the night, her extreme radiance lighting up the entirety of Jeta's Grove, went to the Blessed One. On arrival, having bowed down to him, she stood to one side. As she was standing there, she said to him, "Tell me, dear sir, how you crossed over the flood."
"I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."1
"But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place?"
"When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."
[The devata:]
At long last I see
a brahman, totally unbound,
who without pushing forward,
without staying in place,
has crossed over
the entanglements
of the world.
That is what the devata said. The Teacher approved. Realizing that "The Teacher has approved of me," she bowed down to him, circumambulated him — keeping him to her right — and then vanished right there.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note
1. Or: "unestablished." See Ud VIII.1. Related references are in SN XII.38 and SN XII.64. -
"
Tell me, dear sir, how you crossed over the flood."
"I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."1
"But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place?"
"When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."
thus is the wisdom to crossed over the flood of samsara
sadhu sadhu sadhu