Will the soul leaves one when one meditate
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This thread is worse!!!!!!!Originally posted by neutral_onliner: -
Originally posted by Ito_^:sui la. so a soul is not a soul. but is a conscious, that was influenced by the actions of another.. anyways, a person can remember his past lives through hypnosis, but he does not have memories of his past lives because they don't exist even though he can remember.. but actually the memories are there but he cannot remember because it was defiled, or rather garbage is blocking it. so there is nothing pernament, so a person has no past incarnation but has a past concious, but since he rebirth, its not the same concious so should be blank but karma dictates his present life, so there is memory of a past existence but not an existence that is of an existence, but a past concious that has memory that does not exist but could be retrieved through hypnosis somehow from emptiness. so the current concious does not exist, as it existed 5 minutes ago due to the changing state of time, so 5 minutes ago don't exist now, so it was being defiled into memory and this memory shouldn't exist but could be remembered and become garbage for the next concious after rebirth, yet not the same as the current one but a completely new concious even though karma dictates its life which only can be reflected in the next rebirth, which has no physical relations with the past life, but there is no past life, so its a past concious..
Heed neutral_onliner's advise to read the Emptiness thread first.. -
Try this one, should be easy and since its from buddhanet - THE THREE UNIVERSAL CHARACTERISTICSOriginally posted by laoda99:This thread is worse!!!!!!! -
This is the reasons why Buddhism is so attractive. It teaches about the mind - whatever that is in there.
Originally posted by laoda99:Hmmm....consciousness permanent? But I thought in Buddhism nothing is permanent? -
pai seh. when i was typing (and working) at the same time, he haven't post dat reply yet.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Heed neutral_onliner's advise to read the Emptiness thread first..
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ok pal i try to help have a slight idea wat is emptiness abtOriginally posted by laoda99:ARRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
Emptyness really means 'empty of inherent existence'.
ok do u noe wat it mean by 'empty of inherent existence'. -
There appears to be a 'self' undergoing rebirth, but the ultimate reality is that there is no real 'self' going through rebirth.
There is only rebirth, with no 'self' undergoing rebirth.
It is not easy to comprehend in the beginning, but the difficulty is due to the limitation of the conceptual mind.
Nagarjuna used the eg of a waterfall. You see a 'waterfall', but when you examine further, you cannot find a truly existing 'waterfall' that never changes. 'It' changes every moment, yet 'it' is there. Actually there is no one truly existing unchanging 'waterfall' that exists there; there is only continous flowing, forming the illusion of a 'truly existing entity called ' waterfall'.
Because there is continuity, we mistakenly think that there is a thing called "waterfall" truly existing there.
Similarly, because there is continuity in our lives from moment to moment and from live to live, we mistakenly think that there is such a thing called a "real me" truly existing and undergoing rebirth.
In the Milinda Panha, Ven Nagasena gave excellent replies to questions by King Milinda.
(http://web.singnet.com.sg/~rjp31831/nagasena.htm#ID)The king asked: "When someone is reborn, Venerable Nagasena, is he the same as the one who just died, or is he another?"
The elder replied: "He is neither the same nor another."
"Give me an illustration!'
"What do you think, Great King? When you were a tiny infant, newly born and quite soft, were you then the same as the one who is now grown up?"
"No, that infant was one, I, now grown up, am another."
"If that is so, then, Great King, you have had no mother, no father, no reaching, no schooling! Do we then take it that there is one mother for the embryo in the first stage, another for the second stage, another for the third, another for the fourth, another for the baby, another for the grown-up man? Is the school-boy one person, and the one who has finished school another? Does one commit a crime, but the hands and feet of another are cut off?"
"Certainly not! But what would you say, Reverend Sir, to all that?"
The elder replied: "I was neither the tiny infant, newly born and quite soft, nor am I now the grown-up man; but all these are comprised in one unit depending on this very body."
"Give me a simile!"
"If a man were to light a lamp, could it give light throughout the whole night?"
"Yes, it could."
"Is now the flame which burns in the first watch of the night the same as the one which burns in the second?"
"It is not the same."
"Or is the flame which burns in the second watch the same as the one which burns in the last one?"
"It is not the same."
"Do we then take it that there is one lamp in the first watch of the night, another in the second, and another again in the third?"
"No, it is just because of the light of the lamp shines throughout the night."
"Even so must we understand the collocation of a series of successive dharmas. At rebirth one dharma arises, while another stops; but the two processes take place almost simultaneously (i.e. they are continous). Therefore, the first act of consciousness in the new existence is neither the same as the last act of consciousness in the previous existence, nor it is the another."
"Give me another simile!"
"Milk, once the milking is done, turns after sometimes into curds; from curds it turns into fresh butter; and from fresh butter into ghee. Would it now be correct to say that the milk is the same thing as the curds, or the fresh butter, or the ghee?"
"No, it would not. But they have been produced because of it."
"Just so must be understood the collocation of a series of successive dharmas."
Just as the flame of a candle. At moment 1, the 'flame1' is a production of the candle, the oil, the wick, the oxygen etc at moment 1.
At moment 2, the 'flame2' is the production of the candle oil wick etc at moment 2.
At moment 3, the 'flame3' is the production of those conditions at moment 3.
Each of these conditions are changing at every instant. Eg. the wick is shortening, the oil is depleting, the candle's mixture of elements have changed. So since these conditions have changed, the 'flames' have also changed.
Therefore, there is no one 'flame' existing throughout the night. There is only a succession of dependently arisen 'flames', which instantaneously arise and simultaneously cease, in a continuous fashion.
... flame 1 - flame 2 - flame 3 - flame 4 - ...
This is analogous to our experience of 'self'.
There appears to be a 'wanderer' that existed since age 1 till age 20.
However, 'age 1 wanderer' liked toys and 'age 20 wanderer' liked books.
'age 1 wanderer' had small hands while 'age 20 wanderer' has big hands.
'age 5 wanderer' wanted to be a teacher while 'age 20 wanderer' hated teaching.
now which is the real 'wanderer'?
while 'wanderer' recalls a continuity of growth from 'wanderer 1' to 'wanderer 20' and so on... there is no one truly existing 'wanderer' that grew up.
from wanderer 1 to wanderer 20, all the instantaneous moments of the 'wanderers' are merely dependently arisen, based on the coming together and falling apart of temporary causes and conditions. These causes and conditions, sometimes also known as karma, provide the force that continually brings about birth-death... This forms the illusion of a 'self' undergoing rebirth.
Your question of why some people can remember their past lives - it's because even though there is no 'self' truly existing, there is continuity due to the continuous occurrence of karma. Under particular circumstances, with the right conditions, people are able to have a glimpse of what happened in 'their' past lives.
It is just like when you sleep last night and you woke up this morning, you remember what happened to you last night. However, if you analyse the 'you' yesterday and the 'you' today, you realize that there is no real 'you' that slept through the night and woke up in the day, but there is a continuity of a dependently arisen temporary 'you before sleep' to the dependently arisen temporary 'you while sleeping' to the dependently arisen temporary 'you awake'.
*Phew* very lengthy.
Hope it helps to clarify and doesn't create even more confusion.
This is a very impt qn in Buddhism. Thanks for raising it. -
dun really understand pal...Originally posted by neutral_onliner:ok pal i try to help have a slight idea wat is emptiness abt
Emptyness really means 'empty of inherent existence'.
ok do u noe wat it mean by 'empty of inherent existence'.
is consciousness permanent btw? -
ok i have come out wf a veri good example.ok u wat buddha is trying to tell us is tat we see thing thru our perception and give them label rather than see thing as they truly are.Originally posted by laoda99:dun really understand pal...
is consciousness permanent btw?
Everything we see thru our eyes seem so real as if it truly exist as a single entity.Whereas in reality this is not so
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ok pal...sorry u sacrifice ur sleepOriginally posted by neutral_onliner:ok i have come out wf a veri good example.ok u wat buddha is trying to tell us is tat we see thing thru our perception and give them label rather than see thing as they truly are.
Everything we see thru our eyes seem so real as if it truly exist as a single entity.Whereas in reality this is not so
it means our perception deceive us?
so in reality what is it? -
Have a rest with a clear mind. It will be better that you can realise it yourself. It is really difficult to explain such a high wisdom level thing, especially from a novice me.
This may help you as it has helped me.
Originally posted by laoda99:dun really understand pal...
is consciousness permanent btw? -
ok so far so good huh...Originally posted by laoda99:ok pal...sorry u sacrifice ur sleep
it means our perception deceive us?
so in reality what is it?
in our ordinary view, things appear to have some true of inherent nature, as if they were really there, as if we could find these real, independent entities if we searched for them. They appear to be there, independent of the causes and conditions that created them, independent of the parts of which they are made, and independent of the mind which conceives and gives them a name. This is the appearance of true or inherent existence and our mind grasps it as real.
Actually they exist depending on causes and conditions, parts
ok take alook at this pic
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Consciousness, in concerned_man's sense, is likened to a mirror that is ever reflecting what is happening. The reflections on the mirror is ever fluctuating, and sentient beings fail to see the true face of the mirror. Our mirror is the same as Buddha's mirror except that our mirror is full of dust, that which can be known as 'defilements', and therefore the buddhist practise of purifying the mind is to scrub the mirror until it becomes clear.Originally posted by laoda99:dun really understand pal...
is consciousness permanent btw?
But yet again 'consciousness' shouldnt be understood in terms of an entity, but spontaneously in terms of clarity and mindfulness. 'Permanent' may not be a very correct way of putting it. It is merely said in this way as an analogy. Ppl pls correct me if i'm wrong. -
yap so far so good...
so they exist depending on causes and conditions, means that they exist right? So they exist or not exist?Originally posted by neutral_onliner:
ok so far so good huh...
in our ordinary view, things appear to have some true of inherent nature, as if they were really there, as if we could find these real, independent entities if we searched for them. They appear to be there, independent of the causes and conditions that created them, independent of the parts of which they are made, and independent of the mind which conceives and gives them a name. [b]This is the appearance of true or inherent existence and our mind grasps it as real.
Actually they exist depending on causes and conditions, parts
ok take alook at this pic[/b] -
But if nothing is permanent, how can conscious be able to pass on to another? Will it not just disappear somewhere?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Consciousness, in concerned_man's sense, is likened to a mirror that is ever reflecting what is happening. The reflections on the mirror is ever fluctuating, and sentient beings fail to see the true face of the mirror. Our mirror is the same as Buddha's mirror except that our mirror is full of dust, that which can be known as 'defilements', and therefore the buddhist practise of purifying the mind is to scrub the mirror until it becomes clear.
But yet again 'consciousness' shouldnt be understood in terms of an entity, but spontaneously in terms of clarity and mindfulness. 'Permanent' may not be a very correct way of putting it. It is merely said in this way as an analogy. Ppl pls correct me if i'm wrong. -
I am trying to think of a right word to put it.
There is one thing that our karma reference to. If this is not permanent, then karma will not hold. At least the 8th Sense is a lasting storage space. What I wanted to say is that our mind (conciousness or maybe other better word) is actually the same as the Buddha - which breaks awaw from the boundary time.
What make us different from Buddha is that our mind has differentiation, thinking and wondering thoughts, and attachments. Which make us a Fan Fu. Buddha's XIN is in the state of perfect clarity with no differentiation, wondering thoughts and attachments. Which make Him a Buddha.
It is all the works of the mind, differentiate us from a Enlighten or sentinent being. It is between "MI" and "WU", but the mind is the same.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Consciousness, in concerned_man's sense, is likened to a mirror that is ever reflecting what is happening. The reflections on the mirror is ever fluctuating, and sentient beings fail to see the true face of the mirror. Our mirror is the same as Buddha's mirror except that our mirror is full of dust, that which can be known as 'defilements', and therefore the buddhist practise of purifying the mind is to scrub the mirror until it becomes clear.
But yet again 'consciousness' shouldnt be understood in terms of an entity, but spontaneously in terms of clarity and mindfulness. 'Permanent' may not be a very correct way of putting it. It is merely said in this way as an analogy. Ppl pls correct me if i'm wrong. -
ok so in conventional term this bicycle exist no doubt but if u look carefully (let say for example the bicycle is made up of three part :Originally posted by laoda99:yap so far so good...
so they exist depending on causes and conditions, means that they exist right?
The metal structure
front wheel
rear wheel
now pls tell me where is the bicycle ? which part can be really considered a bicycle?
is The metal structure the bicycle?
or
is it the front wheel?
or
rear wheel? -
All the parts then make up the bicycle.
If individual they are just parts.Originally posted by neutral_onliner:ok so in conventional term this bicycle exist no doubt but if u look carefully (let say for example the bicycle is made up of three part :
The metal structure
front wheel
rear wheel
now pls tell me where is the bicycle ? which part can be really considered a bicycle?
is The metal structure the bicycle?
or
is it the front wheel?
or
rear wheel? -
hmm no reply maybe sleep liao ok tell next time
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what if i leave my body den someone saw me..
eeek!! GHOST!! -
got leh!!!Originally posted by neutral_onliner:hmm no reply maybe sleep liao ok tell next time -
Therefore, we can say the bicycle is dependant on the various conditions and does not have an inherent existence.Originally posted by laoda99:All the parts then make up the bicycle.
If individual they are just parts. -
yes correct so u see actually everything u see does not exist as a single entity.It is alway depended on other enity and condition.As for this example when all entities(wheel,metal structure) and all necessary conditons are met it will produced an effect when u eyes project on it. And ur mind will give a label called"bicycle" to it.To ur perception the bicycle seem so real so permanent as if it a single entity ,a one WHOLE item.BUT in actual fact in reality what the natural 'see' it just a wheel ,a metal structure and two wheels.There no bicycle in the 1st place.Originally posted by laoda99:All the parts then make up the bicycle.
If individual they are just parts.
try dismentle it part by part ..hey where is the bicycle now.
So u see we see thing thru the label we gave rather than see thing as they truly are -
ok why not u go observe ur environment and see for yourself.Everything be it a car, a computer , a chair and photocopy machine , they DO NOT exist as a single entity.It is alway depended on other enity and condition.To put it simple it alway something plus something to give u something.however u mind will project them as if they are real so permanent as if it a single entity ,a one WHOLE item.And start giving labels.Originally posted by neutral_onliner:yes correct so u see actually everything u see does not exist as a single entity.It is alway depended on other enity and condition.As for this example when all entities(wheel,metal structure) and all necessary conditons are met it will produced an effect when u eyes project on it. And ur mind will give a label called"bicycle" to it.To ur perception the bicycle seem so real so permanent as if it a single entity ,a one WHOLE item.BUT in actual fact in reality what the natural 'see' it just a wheel ,a metal structure and two wheels.There no bicycle in the 1st place.
try dismentle it part by part ..hey where is the bicycle now.
So u see we see thing thru the label we gave rather than see thing as they truly are -
hmmm think tis time really sleep liao gd nite