how do we form perception?
-
hi, i need some advise on understanding how we form perception?
taste, smell, sound, visual, feel and mind.. The 5 aggregates...........
what kind of meditation is useful as i want to learn and experience the awareness myself? -
the basic still in theravadaOriginally posted by Isis:hi, i need some advise on understanding how we form perception?
taste, smell, sound, visual, feel and mind.. The 5 aggregates...........
what kind of meditation is useful as i want to learn and experience the awareness myself?
anapanasatti (breathing)
then u can progress to vipassana
for mahayana ,after vipassana , u have to go thru contemplation meditation -
This is a good question. I came across this before. I probably be not the best person to explain it well.
But I believe the answer you are seeking is about the 1st to 8th sense (in our mind/conciousness).
I cant remember exactly about these senses, maybe someone else can explain this better. But these senses actually form perception and create a vibrations that constantly broadcast out into the interspaces of the universe.
Originally posted by Isis:hi, i need some advise on understanding how we form perception?
taste, smell, sound, visual, feel and mind.. The 5 aggregates...........
what kind of meditation is useful as i want to learn and experience the awareness myself? -
i'd like to share a meditation experience some time ago.
during that time, i sat down completely relaxed and let go of everything around me. frankly, my mind never rested for a single moment. anything that is micro-scopic small, the mind continued to notice. is that what is called the formation or perception? i was aware of that, the arising and falling of the formations in thoughts, colors or feelings. how about blankness, is that a perception too when you know it is blankness?
i ever had my mind focus on the wide vast empty space in the eyes(mind). i asked, do i have to fly in a rocket to space to look at space? no.... that space is already inside my mind here and now...... slowly mind seemed to become that space. is that formation? when it was starting to form, i didn't realised it was forming..... untill when i realised my body and mind has become one with space, i saw the connection. again this seeing of connection has formed another perception which is identifying the separation. that's when form and perception is formed through this awareness. and this awareness i felt is not pure awareness for me because by nature and truth, we are actually all dissolved into space as one both body and mind indivisibly.
well i am still not good at practicing. i admit i still need alot of guidances and more practices.......
to add on...
i also realised one thing is that, one can choose to continue to be in this state for as long as you want or as short as you want. the call is yours. you can continue to realise this formation and you can also do not have to associate or think about the formation. there is actually no form to form at all actually. it is there and again it is actually not really there. -
actually this posting catches my eye
Orginally posted by Thusness in the emptiness thread:
From a conventional point of view, it is. If we feel, see, hear and think in terms of ‘entity’, then it seems that there is a ‘self’ leaving the body. This is because all along, we experience all phenomenon appearances as ‘solid things’ existing independently. Such conventional mode of comprehending our meditative experiences masked the true character of these experiences.
If we treat consciousness to be an atomic-like-particle residing in our body somewhere, then we are making it as a self too. Do not do that. The true character of Consciousness is not a thing, it does not enter, leave, reside within or outside the body. Clear Luminosity is bonded by karmic propensities, causes and conditions. There is no need for a place ‘within’. Yes, there is a ‘mental phenomenon’ arising but the sensation of ‘entering’ and ‘leaving’ is the result of associating it with a ‘self’. Just like it is illusionary to see a ‘self’ succeeding from moment to moment, an ‘entrance’ and ‘exit’ is equally illusionary.
Mystical experiences are extremely crucial during the journey of enlightenment. Do not discard them unwisely but assign them correct places. These experiences loosen karmic bonds that latent deep down in our consciousness where it is almost impossible to break through ordinary means. It is an essential condition for the awakening of penetrating insight. The main different between non Buddhist and Buddhist practitioners is that transcendental and mystical experiences are not molded into a ‘self’ but correctly understood and purified with the wisdom of emptiness. This applies true to the Luminous Clarity Knowingness that is non-dual, it is not wrongly personified into Brahman. In perfect clarity, there are no praises for radiance bright, only the Dharma is in sight. The wisdom of emptiness is so deep and profound that even if one has entered the realm of non-dual, he/she will still not be able to grasp its essence in full. This is the wisdom of the Blessed One. The second level of Presence. Smile[b]
From the above posting, it seem that you have experienced it in meditative experience..? what meditation do you practise?
what you say make sense to me...
However to realise the essence... it's rather hard... need experience it myself -
breathing techniques.Originally posted by Isis:hi, i need some advise on understanding how we form perception?
taste, smell, sound, visual, feel and mind.. The 5 aggregates...........
what kind of meditation is useful as i want to learn and experience the awareness myself?
perception comes from the mind thinking it is simple, it is complicated, it is this, it is that, that's what one thinks and these forms or perception are created because the mind thinks. its through personal experience & observation. some may have different views, some same.
it is sweet, what is sweet actually? the tongue or the sugar. why is it called sugar and sweet? does it have a label at all in the 1st place? -
road to enlightenment is indeed ain't easy......
being a sentient being is indeed difficult
i wish to be free from this. i wish to be formless or way beyond formless.....
no wonder the mind has so many layers to unpeal...... pu sa, pu sa, how did you do it? -
To understand it we must understand in terms of dependant origination, that is the 12 links of interdependant origination.Originally posted by Isis:hi, i need some advise on understanding how we form perception?
taste, smell, sound, visual, feel and mind.. The 5 aggregates...........
what kind of meditation is useful as i want to learn and experience the awareness myself?
* Dependent on ignorance (avijjá) mental formations...
* ... arise.
* From mental formations (saýkhárá), rebirth consciousness arises.
* Consciousness (viññáša) gives rise to mental and physical phenomena.
* From mental and physical phenomena (náma rúpa), the spheres of the six senses arise.
* From the spheres of the six senses (sa¦áyatana), contact arises.
* Contact (phassa) causes sensation.
* Sensation (vedaná) leads to craving.
* From craving (tašhá), attachment results.
* Attachment (upádána) produces becoming.
* From becoming (bhava) birth arises.
* Finally, birth (játi) leads to decay (jará), death (marašaµ), grief (soka), lamentation (parideva), pain (dukkha), sorrow (domanassa), despair (upáyása).
--------
As for meditation, personally I practise the Anapanasati. Anyway for meditation it is best you learn under a dharma teacher.
I would also like to take this chance to introduce forummers a very good book written by Ajahn Maha Boowa, who is known as living Arhant in Thailand. Very valuable insights on meditation and practise, definitely a sincere practitioner.
http://www.forestdhammabooks.com/
Download - Book 3: Arahattamagga-Arahattaphala: The Path to Arahantship (Ajahn Maha Boowa's experience all the way from beginning towards Arhantship)
and Book 4: Wisdom Develops Samadhi - a much shorter book on meditation. -
Originally posted by Isis:
Yes.. Thusness taught me that there are three levels of Presence
actually this posting catches my eye
Orginally posted by Thusness in the emptiness thread:
From a conventional point of view, it is. If we feel, see, hear and think in terms of ‘entity’, then it seems that there is a ‘self’ leaving the body. This is because all along, we experience all phenomenon appearances as ‘solid things’ existing independently. Such conventional mode of comprehending our meditative experiences masked the true character of these experiences.
If we treat consciousness to be an atomic-like-particle residing in our body somewhere, then we are making it as a self too. Do not do that. The true character of Consciousness is not a thing, it does not enter, leave, reside within or outside the body. Clear Luminosity is bonded by karmic propensities, causes and conditions. There is no need for a place ‘within’. Yes, there is a ‘mental phenomenon’ arising but the sensation of ‘entering’ and ‘leaving’ is the result of associating it with a ‘self’. Just like it is illusionary to see a ‘self’ succeeding from moment to moment, an ‘entrance’ and ‘exit’ is equally illusionary.
Mystical experiences are extremely crucial during the journey of enlightenment. Do not discard them unwisely but assign them correct places. These experiences loosen karmic bonds that latent deep down in our consciousness where it is almost impossible to break through ordinary means. It is an essential condition for the awakening of penetrating insight. The main different between non Buddhist and Buddhist practitioners is that transcendental and mystical experiences are not molded into a ‘self’ but correctly understood and purified with the wisdom of emptiness. This applies true to the Luminous Clarity Knowingness that is non-dual, it is not wrongly personified into Brahman. In perfect clarity, there are no praises for radiance bright, only the Dharma is in sight. The wisdom of emptiness is so deep and profound that even if one has entered the realm of non-dual, he/she will still not be able to grasp its essence in full. This is the wisdom of the Blessed One. The second level of Presence. Smile[b][/b]
But I shall not discuss here... only when there is 'yuan' to discuss, then maybe. -
yuan???? heh do u mind private msg me some materials?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Yes.. Thusness taught me that there are three levels of Presence But I shall not discuss here... only when there is 'yuan' to discuss, then maybe. -
No need la.. anyway irrelevant to this topic. heheOriginally posted by Isis:yuan???? heh do u mind private msg me some materials? -
Mmm but it still does not answer my question: how do we form perception?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:To understand it we must understand in terms of dependant origination, that is the 12 links of interdependant origination.
* Dependent on ignorance (avijjá) mental formations...
* ... arise.
* From mental formations (saýkhárá), rebirth consciousness arises.
* Consciousness (viññáša) gives rise to mental and physical phenomena.
* From mental and physical phenomena (náma rúpa), the spheres of the six senses arise.
* From the spheres of the six senses (sa¦áyatana), contact arises.
* Contact (phassa) causes sensation.
* Sensation (vedaná) leads to craving.
* From craving (tašhá), attachment results.
* Attachment (upádána) produces becoming.
* From becoming (bhava) birth arises.
* Finally, birth (játi) leads to decay (jará), death (marašaµ), grief (soka), lamentation (parideva), pain (dukkha), sorrow (domanassa), despair (upáyása).
.
does it?
-------- -
Perception is formed as part of the interdependant links of origination. This arise, that arise, etc. This is the teaching of Conditioned Arising - all things are Conditioned Arisings.Originally posted by Isis:Mmm but it still does not answer my question: how do we form perception?
does it?
--------
The 12 Links of Interdependent Origination -
icic... thxOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:Perception is formed as part of the interdependant links of origination. This arise, that arise, etc. This is the teaching of Conditioned Arising - all things are Conditioned Arisings.
The 12 Links of Interdependent Origination
Btw i chance upon concerned man's posting in another thread... quite interesting..
i am wondering how does our 5 aggregate and.. ...actually create a mental impression (preception) in our mind.. the below article seems to explain some reasons why...
hance on an article at http://www.serve.com/~cmtan/buddhism/Misc/noself.html
Do not believe just because someone have told you. Examine and investigate. Smile
SELF AND NO-SELF
-Tan Chade Meng
(This article explores the very difficult question of "no-self". It is one of my favourites among all the articles I've written.)
I'm a Research Engineer by profession and the bulk of my work is in the areas of Neural networks and Computer vision. I have also recently developed an interest in Artificial Life (Alife). I approach the issue of "self" both from what little I've learned from my work and what little I've learned as a meditator.
In my line of research, I find it useful to think of "intelligence"; as an "emergent" quality. Perhaps an example will illustrate this idea. Take the example of a flock of birds flying in one direction. The amazing thing about the flock is that it's always organized in a "V" shape, which can be proven to be the most energy-efficient formation (The bird in front generates air movements that lessens the load of the birds behind. When the front bird gets tired, some bird from behind takes over). Another amazing thing is that when the flock meets an obstacle, such as a tall building, it finds a perfect way to split apart and reform again once the obstacle is passed.
Flock behaviour can be described as an "intelligent" behaviour. One observing the flock might be tempted to conclude that there is an overall intelligence controlling the behaviour of individual birds. But then again, it's obvious that there is no bird in overall control.
Here's the fun part. It can be shown in simulations that all each bird does is to follow a simple algorithm. Each bird notes only the position of birds immediately surrounding it and puts itself in a position according to what its sees. From such simple behaviours of individual birds, an intelligent overall flock behaviour *emerges*!
This is what I mean when I say that "intelligence"; is "emergent". There is no "central soul" of intelligence, and each element (bird) follows only simple behaviours. But working together, an intelligent behaviour emerges and becomes apparent. Similar emergence of intelligence can be observed in ant behaviour.
This model of intelligence is extremely attractive to me because I feel that it matches perfectly what I feel the Buddha taught about "self". Based on my knowledge as a AI researcher and my experience as a meditator, I see the "self" as an emergent quality.
[b]The "self" emerges from the synergism (working together) of the 6 senses. The 6 senses, as defined by the Buddha, are the traditional 5 (sight, smell, touch, sound and taste) and the mind (there are also very practical reasons why the mind is classified as a "sense", but I'll leave this to another discussion). Each sense is formed by the aggregation of the 5 Aggregates. They are body (the sense organ itself), sensation (in my language, activation of sensual inputs), consciousness (the system responding to the presence of input activation), perception (processing of the input to give a symbolic output) and mental formations (post-processing of the output).[\b]
The 5 Aggregates interact to emerge a working sense, and the 6 senses interact to emerge a "self".
To me, it's a very beautiful idea. There is no "soul", no "essence of self that exists independently of and outside of the Aggregates", yet from this web of interaction, "self" emerges. And this "self" is very real, even though it isn't at all.
Perhaps it's useful to compare this to "team spirit". When a group of people come together to play basketball, the members interact to emerge the feeling of "team spirit". This quality can be felt by the members and is observable by other people. But there is no "central essence" of "team spirit". It's gone as soon as the team disbands.
It is therefore correct to say that "*I* feel this way", "*I* am responsible for this and this", "*I* achieved Sotapana-ship", "*I* love so and so", etc. It is also correct to say that "There is no *I*, no *self*. Just the Aggregates and the senses". To me, there are no contradictions, only a very beautiful realization that only a highly Enlightened one could have discovered.
To me, this is not just an intellectual idea. In my own meditations, I can identify very closely with what I described above. One who abides in Mindfulness and Concentration observes how each sense contributes to his feeling of "self-ness". He observes that he is not any of his senses. He obseves how his senses and aggregates makes him. He realizes self, and no-self. It's a very powerful discovery. [b] -
hehe =) Let strive on with diligence towards it no matter how difficult it is =)Originally posted by paperflower: road to enlightenment is indeed ain't easy......
being a sentient being is indeed difficult
i wish to be free from this. i wish to be formless or way beyond formless.....
no wonder the mind has so many layers to unpeal...... pu sa, pu sa, how did you do it?
food for thought
Impossible is not a fact. It's an opinion.
Impossible is potential.
Impossible is temporary.
Impossible is nothing -
Btw the link to the ebooks are good! thanks
the 12 interdependent links are quite difficult to understand. Nevertheless very interesting... -
If you really interested in the five aggregates and how they interact with each otherOriginally posted by Isis:icic... thx
Btw i chance upon concerned man's posting in another thread... quite interesting..
i am wondering how does our 5 aggregate and.. ...actually create a mental impression (preception) in our mind.. the below article seems to explain some reasons why...
hance on an article at http://www.serve.com/~cmtan/buddhism/Misc/noself.html
Do not believe just because someone have told you. Examine and investigate. Smile
SELF AND NO-SELF
-Tan Chade Meng
(This article explores the very difficult question of "no-self". It is one of my favourites among all the articles I've written.)
I'm a Research Engineer by profession and the bulk of my work is in the areas of Neural networks and Computer vision. I have also recently developed an interest in Artificial Life (Alife). I approach the issue of "self" both from what little I've learned from my work and what little I've learned as a meditator.
In my line of research, I find it useful to think of "intelligence"; as an "emergent" quality. Perhaps an example will illustrate this idea. Take the example of a flock of birds flying in one direction. The amazing thing about the flock is that it's always organized in a "V" shape, which can be proven to be the most energy-efficient formation (The bird in front generates air movements that lessens the load of the birds behind. When the front bird gets tired, some bird from behind takes over). Another amazing thing is that when the flock meets an obstacle, such as a tall building, it finds a perfect way to split apart and reform again once the obstacle is passed.
Flock behaviour can be described as an "intelligent" behaviour. One observing the flock might be tempted to conclude that there is an overall intelligence controlling the behaviour of individual birds. But then again, it's obvious that there is no bird in overall control.
Here's the fun part. It can be shown in simulations that all each bird does is to follow a simple algorithm. Each bird notes only the position of birds immediately surrounding it and puts itself in a position according to what its sees. From such simple behaviours of individual birds, an intelligent overall flock behaviour *emerges*!
This is what I mean when I say that "intelligence"; is "emergent". There is no "central soul" of intelligence, and each element (bird) follows only simple behaviours. But working together, an intelligent behaviour emerges and becomes apparent. Similar emergence of intelligence can be observed in ant behaviour.
This model of intelligence is extremely attractive to me because I feel that it matches perfectly what I feel the Buddha taught about "self". Based on my knowledge as a AI researcher and my experience as a meditator, I see the "self" as an emergent quality.
[b]The "self" emerges from the synergism (working together) of the 6 senses. The 6 senses, as defined by the Buddha, are the traditional 5 (sight, smell, touch, sound and taste) and the mind (there are also very practical reasons why the mind is classified as a "sense", but I'll leave this to another discussion). Each sense is formed by the aggregation of the 5 Aggregates. They are body (the sense organ itself), sensation (in my language, activation of sensual inputs), consciousness (the system responding to the presence of input activation), perception (processing of the input to give a symbolic output) and mental formations (post-processing of the output).[\b]
The 5 Aggregates interact to emerge a working sense, and the 6 senses interact to emerge a "self".
To me, it's a very beautiful idea. There is no "soul", no "essence of self that exists independently of and outside of the Aggregates", yet from this web of interaction, "self" emerges. And this "self" is very real, even though it isn't at all.
Perhaps it's useful to compare this to "team spirit". When a group of people come together to play basketball, the members interact to emerge the feeling of "team spirit". This quality can be felt by the members and is observable by other people. But there is no "central essence" of "team spirit". It's gone as soon as the team disbands.
It is therefore correct to say that "*I* feel this way", "*I* am responsible for this and this", "*I* achieved Sotapana-ship", "*I* love so and so", etc. It is also correct to say that "There is no *I*, no *self*. Just the Aggregates and the senses". To me, there are no contradictions, only a very beautiful realization that only a highly Enlightened one could have discovered.
To me, this is not just an intellectual idea. In my own meditations, I can identify very closely with what I described above. One who abides in Mindfulness and Concentration observes how each sense contributes to his feeling of "self-ness". He observes that he is not any of his senses. He obseves how his senses and aggregates makes him. He realizes self, and no-self. It's a very powerful discovery. [b]
I recommend you to learn the whole sets of teachings of the
Mahayana Yogacara School
from the hundred illumined Dharma Door to
the 30 verse of Mind-Only school by Vasubandhu
It examine how the 5 aggregates interplay to create the confusion and illusion in our lives
and it is a direct transmission from Maitreya Bodhisattva 500 years after Buddha Parinirvana to Asanga, Vasubandhu and Narasimha -
and a good read is the Great Contemplation of Stopping and visualisation meditation by Patriach Zhi zhe of Tientai SchoolOriginally posted by bohiruci:If you really interested in the five aggregates and how they interact with each other
I recommend you to learn the whole sets of teachings of the
Mahayana Yogacara School
from the hundred illumined Dharma Door to
the 30 verse of Mind-Only school by Vasubandhu
It examine how the 5 aggregates interplay to create the confusion and illusion in our lives
and it is a direct transmission from Maitreya Bodhisattva 500 years after Buddha Parinirvana to Asanga, Vasubandhu and Narasimha -
Yes, especially on page 69 onwards of book 3. How Venerable Acariya Maha Boowa struggled to understand his masterÂ’s warning of the bright radiance luminosity as the ultimate danger. The radiance bright luminosity that he has taken to be the ultimate virtue is indeed the ultimate danger and the doctrine of no-self is the antidote.Originally posted by Isis:Btw the link to the ebooks are good! thanks
the 12 interdependent links are quite difficult to understand. Nevertheless very interesting...
There is a thread about similar warning – How did Buddha got lost in Samsara http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=161161. I find this point of vital importance for meditators.
.