I can believe in Buddhism and still keep my faith?
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Originally posted by ICanOnlyHope:
There are many problems assoc with a Creator God. Like why did He create satan & demons? Like why He allow humans to suffer? Like why if He is good & at the same time omnipotent He cannot prevent suffering & bad things from happening? There are so many contradictions with a Creator God. So many questions of which human suffering is one of them. JMHO.
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[quote]Originally posted by sinweiy:
[b]our creator is the Original Mind. so in a way, we don't exactly reject a creator.
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[quote]Originally posted by casino_king:
[b]Why then did the mind create..... satan & demons? why allow humans to suffer?
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The Eternal Buddha Nature
by Venerable Master Hsuan Hua
http://sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=189927
"People are transformed from nothing; we manifest from out of nothing. That is the nature of all living beings. They appear from nothing. Originally, living beings did not exist, but then they came about through transformation. In cultivating the Way, we want to get back to the place where from something we become nothing. This is called "going back to the origin and returning to the sources" -returning to the original Buddhanature. "What good is there to this?" you ask. Well, what good is there in being a person? If you return to the original nature you can quickly accomplish the Buddha Way. Even if heaven and earth were to no longer exist, the Buddha-nature would still be ever-present. And even if all of mankind were finished off by the "death ray," the Buddhanature would still abide, be forever indestructible. " -
the original mind is actual just is. it's non-discriminative of perfection or imperfection, good or evil. it's so vast and powerful that it's also quite 'innocence'. it just producing and producing existence unknowingly. as the moment as one generate a single thought of ignorance/not knowingly, it manifest the entire existence in a slip second.
didn't the scientist calculated that big bang happen in less less less then a millisecond? it's like 'bang' we have existence. we think it didn't just bang for once. it's continuos. bang, bang bang, like flash, flash flash. like seeing a movie projection, film by film.
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interesting read on how things are created in Shurangama Sutra:
The Buddha said, "Purna, you have asked why in fundamental purity the mountains, the rivers, and the great earth suddenly arise.
"Have you not often heard the Thus Come One expound upon the wonderful light of the enlightened nature and the bright wonder of fundamental enlightenment?"
Purna said, "Yes, World Honored One, I have often heard the Buddha expound upon that subject."
The Buddha said, "You speak of understanding enlightenment; does the nature understand and is that called enlightenment? Or does enlightenment initially lack understanding and so you speak of understanding enlightenment?"
Purna said, "If a lack of understanding is called enlightenment, then there would be no understanding at all."
The Buddha said, "If there were no understanding at all, then there could be no understanding of enlightenment. If understanding is added, then that is not enlightenment. If understanding is not added, then thereÂ’s no understanding. But a lack of understanding or ignorance is not the lucid bright nature of enlightenment.
"The nature of enlightenment certainly includes understanding. ItÂ’s redundant to speak of understanding enlightenment.
"Enlightenment is not a kind of understanding. Understanding sets up an objective realm. Once that objective realm is set up, your false subjective state arises.
"Where there was neither sameness nor difference, suddenly difference appears. What differs from that difference becomes sameness. Once sameness and difference mutually arise, and due to them, what is neither the same nor different is created.
"This turmoil eventually brings about weariness. Prolonged weariness produces defilement. The combination of these in a murky turbidity creates afflictions with respect to wearisome defilements.
"The world comes about through this arising; the lack of any arising becomes emptiness. Emptiness is sameness; the world, difference. Those that have neither difference nor sameness become conditioned dharmas.
"The understanding added to enlightenment creates a light that stands in mutual opposition with the darkness of emptiness. As a result, wind wheels that support the world come into being.
"The tension between emptiness and that light creates movement. The false, persistent light congeals into a solidity that becomes metal. A lack of enlightenment nurtures that persistence and causes metal wheels to secure all lands.
"That tenacious unenlightened state creates metal, while the fluctuations of light cause the wind to rise. The friction between wind and metal creates fire, which is mutable in nature.
"Metal produces moisture, which causes flame to rise from the fire. Thus the wheel of water that encompasses all realms in the ten directions comes about.
"Fire rises and water falls, and the combination becomes tenacious. What is wet becomes the oceans and seas; what is dry becomes the continents and islands.
"Because of this, fire often rises up in the oceans, and on the continents the streams and rivers ever flow.
"When the power of water is less then that of fire, high mountains result. That is why mountain rocks give off sparks when struck, and become liquid when melted.
"When the power of earth is less then that of water, the outcome is grasses and trees. That is why the vegetation in groves and marshes turns to ashes when burned and oozes water when twisted.
"The interaction of that false dichotomy in turn creates these elements as seeds and from these causes and conditions comes the continuity of the world.
"Moreover, Purna, the false understanding is none other than the mistake of adding understanding to enlightenment.
"After the falseness of the objective realm is established, the subjective understanding cannot transcend it. Due to that, hearing does not go beyond sound, and seeing does not surpass form.
"Forms, smells, tastes, objects of touch and the others of the six falsenesses are realized. Because of them there is a division into seeing, sensation, hearing, and knowing.
"Similar karma binds beings together; union and separation bring about their transformations.
"The manifestation of light is caused by false view and ignorance. Competitive views generate hatred; compatible views create love. The flow of love becomes a seed; the potential fetus is taken in and conception occurs. When intercourse takes place, beings with similar karma are drawn in. From these causes and conditions, the kalaka, arbuda, and other fetal stages evolve.
http://www.buddhistinformation.com/shurangama_sutra.htm
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profound it is...
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Why then did the mind create..... satan & demons? why allow humans to suffer?
in Buddhism, demon is also form of mind. the direct opposite of Buddha, ie Awakened Mind is actually Delusive Mind. so 'demon' is just the mind of unawaken/defiled/deluded mind. not demon as a evil Person as we normally think. it's 'within' all of us as to Buddhanature is within all of us per se.
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
It is this "innocent" MIND that produced the sufferings and the demons and spirits; how does going back to this "innocent" mind then solve the problem? It will keep on doing it?
the original mind is actual [b]just is. it's non-discriminative of perfection or imperfection, good or evil. it's so vast and powerful that it's also quite 'innocence'. it just producing and producing existence unknowingly. as the moment as one generate a single thought of ignorance/not knowingly, it manifest the entire existence in a slip second.
didn't the scientist calculated that big bang happen in less less less then a millisecond? it's like 'bang' we have existence. we think it didn't just bang for once. it's continuos. bang, bang bang, like flash, flash flash. like seeing a movie projection, film by film.
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Thanks guys for your responses. So I have to indeed choose one and not the other. The concept of absolute truth.
It's just that many buddhists keep saying I can always learn from Buddha if I'm in another religion.
Fact is, we can't, unless your religion allows relativism. -
No the picture does not confuse me. It only tells me that some buddhists accept relativism.Originally posted by casino_king:Christians do not believe idols, by producing the picture, you are just confusing him.
I see only Buddha.
Or Jesus Christ in that picture. There is no two ways about it. -
You can me face the same problem. The difference is, I want to find out more to know this Creator God. You depart away from it and calls it an illusion of the mind.Originally posted by ICanOnlyHope:There are many problems assoc with a Creator God. Like why did He create satan & demons? Like why He allow humans to suffer? Like why if He is good & at the same time omnipotent He cannot prevent suffering & bad things from happening? There are so many contradictions with a Creator God. So many questions of which human suffering is one of them. JMHO.
And yes, I would like to hear the buddhist explanation of human suffering. Thanks! -
No it is not that "buddhists accept relativism" they were told by Buddha to work out their own salvation. Personally I think that is very important. To work out one's salvation and not be dependent on others (whether pastors or priests or holy books.) You can learn from others and let other people guide you but you have to work it all out for yourself.Originally posted by SocialOutcast:No the picture does not confuse me. It only tells me that some buddhists accept relativism.
I see only Buddha.
Or Jesus Christ in that picture. There is no two ways about it. -
Well no one is stopping you from learning more about Buddhism.Originally posted by SocialOutcast:Thanks guys for your responses. So I have to indeed choose one and not the other. The concept of absolute truth.
It's just that many buddhists keep saying I can always learn from Buddha if I'm in another religion.
Fact is, we can't, unless your religion allows relativism.
But if you want to be a buddhist, you will have to spend some time deciding, and nobody will rush you.
Buddha never demanded that people believe in every word he say. But to take note of it and realise yourself. See Kalama Sutta in full - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-065.html -
From another topic, on why the words of Buddha are not held as absolute (http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=192355&page=1):
Ok first, you need to know what are the 8 fold path to enlightenment. If guidelines are held as absolute it will inevitably become a dualism. In Christianity, the essential two commandments is "Thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." (Deut 6:5, Mat 22:37) and " Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Lev 19:18, Mat 22:39.). Why are they the essentials? Because when there is the Unconditional Love which is itself without discriminations as Jesus always taught, things will fall in place, everything will become One and naturally all other 'commandments' are met without fail.Originally posted by laoda99:so in short, u r saying:
1) guidelines are for beginners
2) when u are more advanced can discard all the guidelines liao?Book: Buddhism Plain and Simple by Steve Hagen
Page 53:
5. The Art of Seeing
THE FOURTH TRUTH OF THE BUDDHA-dharma, also known as the eightfold path, offers us a realisation and a practice for bringing about the cessation of dukkha.
This is not a path we can take to get from point A to point B. Its peculiar nature is that the moment we step on it, the entire path is realised at once. Still, with each step we take we can deepen our understanding.
The eight aspects of this path are right view. right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right meditation.
We'll preview each of these in a moment, but first let's consider the word "right." The word the Buddha actually used was samma. Samma is translated as "right" - but not "right" as opposed to "wrong," or "bad," or "evil." Normally, the moment we say "right," we've already implied "wrong." We've implied dualism.
For those unfamiliar with the term as it's being used here, dualism simply refers to the world of left and right, dark and light, good and bad, pure and impure. It's the psychological backdrop for our everyday world of chasing after something and running away from others, the world in which if you differ from me, then there's something wrong with you.
Obviously, this isn't what the Buddha meant by samma. The term suggests something far more subtle. It's better that we understand right as "this is appropriate," "this works," "this is in sync with Reality." Right, on the eightfold path, doesn't mean right versus wrong so much as it means seeing versus not seeing. It refers to being in touch with Reality as opposed to Samma refers to Wholeness rather than fragmentation.
Thus, when I use the word "right" in the chapters to come, I intend it to refer to what is conducive awakening, rather than something that can be compared against something wrong.
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6. Wisdom
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page 66:
Right view is seeing reality in all its fullness and fluidity. Yet there's nothing in particular to be seen.
In the world of our common ordinary mind, everything is divided up: left and right, good and bad, above and below.
For example, we see the puma stalking the deer and we want to call out to the deer to help him escape. And when the puma pounces on the deer, our heart goes out to the deer.
So we look for a way to protect the deer. We put bells on the puma so the deer knows when she's around. As a result, the puma suffers. Eventually, she starves.
With no more puma to keep the deer population in check, the number of deer increases. Before long there are more deer than the local environment can support. The deer overgraze the land and strip the trees and shrubs bare of leaves. And eventually, due to overpopulation, the deer, too, begin to starve.
We believe we're expressing compsasion. But compassion must be balanced with wisdom. To the extent we don't see, we waste our compassion.
If you see Reality in its fluidity and fullness, then you see the puma as well as the deer. You see how the two fit together as parts of a seamless Whole.
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7. Morality
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page 78:
What's the point of right speech? It's to remind ourselves, to constantly bring ourselves back to this moment - not only for ourselves, but for others as well. It's to do whatever leads us out of confusion and bondage. It's to see what's really going on.
The Buddha did not lay down any commandments. If we say, "Thou shalt not lie," applying it as a rule, what are we to do when the Gestapo pounds at our door and we're harbouring a family of innocent fugitives in the attic? If not lying were an absolute rule to live by, we'd be in deep moral trouble.
Nevertheless, it's not the case that buddhas simply live out of their own individual truths. The buddha-dharma - what the awakened teach - is about directly seeing Truth itself, prior to forming any ideas about it. It is about responding to each particular situation as it comes to be, not according to some lockstep programs of do's and don'ts. We can't use a hard and fast rule to deal with the dilemmas and uncertainties and ambiguities of life. A rule - any rule - would only open the door for more relativism and contradiction.
Nevertheless, we can see what's morally appropriate in each situation. We can easily see what actions and speech will lead us and others into hatred, confusion, difficulty, and suffering. And we can see what actions and speech will lead us and others into hatred, confusion, difficulty, and suffering. And we can see what words and actions will not. It all has to do with our intention. Is our intention to hoodwink, mislead, inflate, or deceive others - or is it to be awake?
Here is the focus for right speech. In any given moment, our eyes must be open to see our situation fully for what it is. Our intent- and the action, speech, and though that arise from the intent - is that we all become free of our confusion. For this, it's not necessary that we see one thing pitted against another.
Right speech omits nothing. It includes the whole picture: the Gestapo, the fugitive family, yourself, and the world in which you live.
Right speech doesn't rely on judgment or discriminative thinking. In judging we weigh everything out. We base our speech on some conceptual frame that we've arranged to accommodate ourselves and process ideas - like, for example, the idea that the Gestapo are inherently bad, and the people upstairs are inherently good. This is precisely the thinking that got us into trouble in the first place. Indeed, it's the very thinking that produces both the Gestapo and the fugitives.
Instead, we have to simply see the situation in all its pain, conflict, difficulty, and contradiction, and see how it is we become so confused. Then, and only then, can we speak and act in a way that's conducive to awakening.
We must also observe our own intent, so that we can know when we're speaking or acting out of a leaning mind, out of a desire to bring about some particular end. Right speech concerns your intention. Are you using speech because you're trying to manipulate the world and other people? Or are you speaking in order to help yourself and others wake up? -
sure why not........That's the free spirit of enquiry of Buddhism.
if you think truths exists in other religion, go ahead.
But pls use your common sense to investigate the truth is the truth in that religion. do not blindly accept the truth without investigating it. -
I am curious, did you investigate the "spiritual" teachings by Buddhism or only the practical teachings? What were your findings, in detail?Originally posted by marcteng:sure why not........That's the free spirit of enquiry of Buddhism.
if you think truths exists in other religion, go ahead.
But pls use your common sense to investigate the truth is the truth in that religion. do not blindly accept the truth without investigating it. -
Buddhism is also a belief system which is tolerant of all other beliefs or religions. Buddhism agrees with the moral teachings of other religionsOriginally posted by SocialOutcast:No the picture does not confuse me. It only tells me that some buddhists accept relativism.
I see only Buddha.
Or Jesus Christ in that picture. There is no two ways about it.
As for tis pic,it telling us tat buddha and jesus r good frens liao so why can't the buddhists and christians?
A good buddhist is a good christian vice versa
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Originally posted by casino_king:
case by case basis. it wouldnÂ’t (from your perspective), as one would have up rooted ignorance which is the root cause of production.
[b]It is this "innocent" MIND that produced the sufferings and the demons and spirits; how does going back to this "innocent" mind then solve the problem? It will keep on doing it?
say if u were once confuse of getting to a place, but then you have found and realised the way to get there. confusion would be ended.
or say if charcoal had undergo refinement and turn into diamond. the diamond wouldnÂ’t become raw charcoal again. Purna also ask Buddha the query in Shurangama Sutra (linked above).
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Purna said, "If this wonderful enlightenment, the wonderful awareness of fundamental enlightenment, which is neither greater than nor less than the mind of the Thus Come One, abruptly brings forth the mountains, the rivers, and the great earth, and all conditioned phenomena, then now that the Thus Come One has attained the wonderful emptiness of clear enlightenment, will the mountains, the rivers, the great earth, and all conditioned habitual outflows arise ever again?"
The Buddha said to Purna, "If a person living in a village were confused about directions, mistaking south for north, would that confusion be the result of confusion or of awareness?"
Purna said, "His confusion would be the result of neither. Why not? Confusion is fundamentally baseless, so how could anything arise because of it? And as awareness does not produce confusion, how could confusion arise out of it?"
The Buddha said, "If someone who knows the directions points them out to the confused person, then once the person who was confused becomes aware, do you suppose, Purna, that he could lose his sense of direction again in that village?"
"No, World Honored One."
"Purna, the Thus Come Ones of the ten directions are the same way.
Confusion is groundless and ultimately empty in nature. In the past, there basically was no confusion. It merely seemed as if there were confusion and enlightenment. When the delusion about confusion and enlightenment is ended, enlightenment will not give rise to confusion.
"Consider the person who, because of cataracts, saw flowers in space. Once the cataracts were removed, the flowers in space disappeared. Were he to rush to the spot where the flowers disappeared and wait for them to reappear, would you consider that person to be stupid or wise?"
Purna said, "Originally there werenÂ’t any flowers in space. It was through a seeing disability that they appeared and disappeared. To see the disappearance of the flowers in space is already a distortion. To wait for them to reappear is sheer madness. Why bother to determine further if such a person is stupid or wise?"
The Buddha said, "Since you explain it that way, why do you ask if the clear emptiness of wonderful enlightenment can once again give rise to the mountains, the rivers, and the great earth?
"Consider a piece of ore containing gold and other metals mixed together. Once the pure gold is extracted it will never become ore again. Consider wood that has burnt to ashes; it will never become wood again.” The Bodhi and Nirvana of all Buddhas, the Thus Come Ones, are the same way.
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I am not saying that the enlightened people will become confused again; I am saying even if everybody existing become enlightened, it is pointless because, the Mind will just keep on creating more and more unenlightened people who would need to go through the whole process?Originally posted by sinweiy:case by case basis. it wouldnÂ’t (from your perspective), as one would have up rooted ignorance which is the root cause of production.
say if u were once confuse of getting to a place, but then you have found and realised the way to get there. confusion would be ended.
or say if charcoal had undergo refinement and turn into diamond. the diamond wouldnÂ’t become raw charcoal again. Purna also ask Buddha the query in Shurangama Sutra (linked above).
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It could make a difference if 'evolution' takes place....Originally posted by casino_king:I am not saying that the enlightened people will become confused again; I am saying even if everybody existing become enlightened, it is pointless because, the Mind will just keep on creating more and more unenlightened people who would need to go through the whole process? -
Evovle into Buddhas? I think you take X-men too seriously.Originally posted by Devil1976:It could make a difference if 'evolution' takes place.... -
Originally posted by casino_king:
hmm, could there be a last? the last enlighten being depend on whom? Buddha actually see everyone of us be it good or bad as Buddha, hence HeÂ’s enlightened.
I am saying even if everybody existing become enlightened, it is pointless because, the Mind will just keep on creating more and more unenlightened people who would need to go through the whole process?[/b]
"When one realised one's True self/mind/buddhanature, then all sentient beings are Buddhas. But if one lose one's True self/mind/buddhanature, then all Buddhas are sentient beings." - Patriarch Huineng
not easy. people like to discriminate. if one can drop discrimination, then one's same as Bodhisattva.
the lotus grew from the mud (bad) and out of the water(good) and suspend in the air(pure). rare is it that the lotus seed(cause) and the flower(effect) exist at the same time.
Tai ji(Original Mind) born yin and yang or say enlighten and unenlighten at the same time. neither yin nor yang increase/decrease in number on the perspective of Oneness. itÂ’s a whole package of when This arises, that arises, and when that cease, that cease.
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Out of six billion people, maybe a a few million are Buddhists? Out of these few million, maybe a few hundred are Buddhas? SoOriginally posted by sinweiy:hmm, could there be a last? the last enlighten being depend on whom? Buddha actually see everyone of us be it good or bad as Buddha, hence HeÂ’s enlightened.
"When one realised one's True self/mind/buddhanature, then all sentient beings are Buddhas. But if one lose one's True self/mind/buddhanature, then all Buddhas are sentient beings." - Patriarch Huineng
the lotus grew from the mud (bad) and out of the water(good) and suspend in the air(pure). rare is it that the lotus seed(cause) and the flower(effect) exist at the same time.
Tai ji(Original Mind) born yin and yang or say enlighten and unenlighten at the same time. neither yin nor yang increase/decrease in number on the perspective of Oneness. itÂ’s a whole package of when This arises, that arises, and when that cease, that cease.
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99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of human are not Buddhas? If we take into account the other life forms then the number who are Buddhas can be said to be zero to a billion billion decimal places? If Buddhists believe that the MIND created lifeforms, we can safely conclude that the MIND creates suffering people? -
In Buddhism, the Buddha said that our instrinsic Buddha Nature is already wholly complete. We only need to realise that (not just conceptually) to awaken. Mind in essence is fundamentally pure, it should not be confused with our mind of ordinary sentient thoughts. Sufferings is caused by not seeing the true nature of our Mind, and ignorance is caused by various causes and conditions.Originally posted by casino_king:Out of six billion people, maybe a a few million are Buddhists? Out of these few million, maybe a few hundred are Buddhas? So
99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of human are not Buddhas? If we take into account the other life forms then the number who are Buddhas can be said to be zero to a billion billion decimal places? If Buddhists believe that the MIND created lifeforms, we can safely conclude that the MIND creates suffering people?
Investigating hua to or "looking into who is reciting Buddha's name" is contemplating Mind. Hence, contemplating Mind is illuminating pure awareness. It is also illuminating the Buddha-nature within oneself. Mind is nature, pure awareness, Buddha. Mind has no form, no characters, no directions; it cannot be found in any particular place. It cannot be grasped. Originally, Mind is purity, universally embracing all Dharma realms. No inn or out, no coming or going. Originally, Mind is pure Dharmakaya.
The nature of Sufferings, incessant thinking, attachments, Samsara itself, is Dharmakaya. But it is NOT dharmakaya. Thus once we realise the nature of sufferings, when it is seen in its essence, then it no longer affects us anymore just as passing clouds cannot obstruct the vast sky. We are liberated. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
rare indeed. see the mountain producing charcoal. how many become diamond.
Out of six billion people, maybe a a few million are Buddhists? Out of these few million, maybe a few hundred are Buddhas? So
99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of human are not Buddhas? If we take into account the other life forms then the number who are Buddhas can be said to be zero to a billion billion decimal places? If Buddhists believe that the MIND created lifeforms, we can safely conclude that the MIND creates suffering people?
Buddha also grap a handful of soil and make a comparision that the handful is born human. the soil on the gound are other living organisms/beings. when the soil is let go, those sand trap in the finger nail are studying Dharma.
though we all have the nature to become Buddha like all charcoal can become diamond.
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