Since it is so rare and recognised by Buddha to be so, we can safely concluded that the main aim of Buddhism is not Enlightenment (Buddhahood?)Originally posted by sinweiy:rare indeed. see the mountain producing charcoal. how many become diamond.
Buddha also grap a handful of soil and make a comparision that the handful is born human. the soil on the gound are other living organisms/beings. when the soil is let go, those sand trap in the finger nail are studying Dharma.
though we all have the nature to become Buddha like all charcoal can become diamond.
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Aim is still to become Buddha. Even though it is rare to see a Buddha doesn't mean we cannot aim to become a Buddha.Originally posted by casino_king:Since it is so rare and recognised by Buddha to be so, we can safely concluded that the main aim of Buddhism is not Enlightenment (Buddhahood?)
So Enlightenment is not Buddhahood? Not even Bodhisattva? What is the heirarchy? Where is Enlightenment? I understand that monks are ranked based on how many precepts they follow (Thailand)?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Aim is still to become Buddha. Even though it is rare to see a Buddha doesn't mean we cannot aim to become a Buddha.
In fact although there is not many Buddhas manifesting to us, there are many Bodhisattvas who are on their way to Buddhahood. Anyone can practise as a practitioner, then proceed to practising as a Bodhisattva and then eventually attain Buddhahood.
There are countless enlightened people in the world, although they have not reached stage of the Buddha. They have awakened to reality, and may be considered at various stages on the path of the Bodhisattva or the path towards Arhantship, or they have attained Arhantship.
Originally posted by casino_king:then u stay suffering lor. i aim for ending suffering.
Since it is so rare and recognised by Buddha to be so, we can safely concluded that the main aim of Buddhism is not Enlightenment (Buddhahood
Yes only for ending suffering or what... now I am a little confused because I always thought that when Gautama became Enlightened, he became Buddha.Originally posted by sinweiy:then u stay suffering lor. i aim for ending suffering.
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Only Buddha's enlightenment is called 'Anuttarasamyaksambodhi', the 'Unsurpassed, Proper and Equal, Right Enlightenment'.Originally posted by casino_king:So Enlightenment is not Buddhahood? Not even Bodhisattva? What is the heirarchy? Where is Enlightenment? I understand that monks are ranked based on how many precepts they follow (Thailand)?
Originally posted by casino_king:Enlightenment is like onion peeling, layer by layer. the core, nothing to peel, Buddhahood is Full enlightenment. Bodhisattva bit lower, on the way.
Yes only for ending suffering or what... now I am a little confused because I always thought that when Gautama became Enlightened, he became Buddha.
Enlightenment is not Buddhahood? Not even Bodhisattva? What is the heirarchy? Where is Enlightenment in the heirarchy?
Originally posted by sinweiy:Well said
Enlightenment is like onion peeling, layer by layer. the core Buddhahood is [b]Full enlightenment. Bodhisattva bit lower, on the way.
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[/b]
Initial enlightenment can come as a glimpse, like a flash of Satori. But this is not the end.Originally posted by casino_king:OIC I always thought that you cross a line and by magic you become Enlightened; so enlightenment is like becoming wiser and wiser?
Originally posted by casino_king:can like that say. giving that Buddha is ominscience, all knowing, or having used the water parable, it's the stilless water ever. bodhisattva still have a bit of turbulence depending on the level.
OIC I always thought that you cross a line and by magic you become Enlightened; so enlightenment is like becoming wiser and wiser? [/b]
Sudden Enlightenment may come to one, but unless he or she is prepared to recognize it, and even more importantly to integrate it into his or her everyday psychological being, it will almost certainly come only to slip away./\
Neither the Gradualist nor the Suddenist approach can guarantee Enlightenment, but each in their own way can give one a chance at gaining it. For the person who can commit him or herself to a fully monastic life the Gradual way may offer more hope than the Sudden way. For those who can not make such a dramatic commitment it may be the Sudden way that offers the hope. Like all religious and philosophical views various rational arguments can be made to support either a Gradualist or Suddenist approach, but the bottom line is that neither can be logically proven nor disproven. Both, in the final analysis, depend largely upon faith. Indeed, all schools of Buddhism, if not all religious traditions, require a strong faith component before any real Spiritual Awakening can occur.
Originally posted by casino_king:Faith, literally means belief without proof. So if you ask me, I would say, no. Because u are not taught to accept everything in face value in Buddhism, instead you are encourage to investigate, practise and realise it for yourself. In fact, Buddhism is not even a religion to begin with, because there is no supreme being to worship to.
While I am most impressed that you can find and paste quotes to almost any question I ask; I find them sometimes very contradictory.
Like this statement: [b]Both, in the final analysis, depend largely upon faith. Indeed, all schools of Buddhism, if not all religious traditions, require a strong faith component before any real Spiritual Awakening can occur.
So now Buddhism requires faith?[/b]
Originally posted by casino_king:The Zen masters would tell you, for enlightenment to occur, you need doubt. And as my Master said, and many other Zen masters said, we Not only need doubt, as small doubt can only produce small realisations, but GREAT DOUBT (of intense questioning) will produce Great Enlightenment. By great doubt, a person persistantly inquires on his Koan until he reaches breakthrough. 'Great Faith, Great Doubt, Great Determination' are three needs of zen practise.
SUDDEN OR GRADUAL ENLIGHTENMENT?
by Rev.Vajra Karuna
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/awakening101/sudgrad2.html
quote:
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Sudden Enlightenment may come to one, but unless he or she is prepared to recognize it, and even more importantly to integrate it into his or her everyday psychological being, it will almost certainly come only to slip away.
Neither the Gradualist nor the Suddenist approach can guarantee Enlightenment, but each in their own way can give one a chance at gaining it. For the person who can commit him or herself to a fully monastic life the Gradual way may offer more hope than the Sudden way. For those who can not make such a dramatic commitment it may be the Sudden way that offers the hope. Like all religious and philosophical views various rational arguments can be made to support either a Gradualist or Suddenist approach, but the bottom line is that neither can be logically proven nor disproven. [b]Both, in the final analysis, depend largely upon faith. Indeed, all schools of Buddhism, if not all religious traditions, require a strong faith component before any real Spiritual Awakening can occur.
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As you can see the faith statement comes from the above quote provided by the mod. You see how it will confuse people?[/b]
http://www2.bc.cc.ca.us/resperic/science_and_spirituality.htm
“Great faith” in Zen practice refers to a trust in the process, as demonstrated by the many who have gone on before, as well as a firm trust in one’s capabilities to see the essential nature of reality for oneself. In scientific work, “great faith” refers to a trust in the scientific method, successfully applied by scientists of the past, as well as an underlying belief in one’s inherent capability to understand the phenomena being studied.
“Great doubt” in Zen refers to a willingness to profoundly question all of one’s most cherished beliefs, and ultimately to uproot them. Beliefs are but concepts, floating on the surface. The conceptual realm may be useful at times, but compulsive attachment to particular concepts is a hindrance to penetrating to deeper levels of realization of the fundamental nature of reality, which is beyond all concepts. An ancient Chinese saying states that when a wise man points his finger to the moon, the fool sees only his finger. In science, “great doubt” is based on a realization that the model is not the reality. Being too attached to a particular hypothesis or theory can prevent one from arriving at a better theory that reflects a deeper understanding of the phenomena of interest.
“Great determination” in Zen is required in order to not give in to laziness. The process may take some time, and without determination one may never attain deep realization. In fact, there is no deepest realization, and only by great determination will one keep going deeper. Of course the same can be said of scientific research.
yes in buddhism we are taught to investigateOriginally posted by coolbluewater:Faith, literally means belief without proof. So if you ask me, I would say, no. Because u are not taught to accept everything in face value in Buddhism, instead you are encourage to investigate, practise and realise it for yourself. In fact, Buddhism is not even a religion to begin with, because there is no supreme being to worship to.
Saddha Suttaps: somehow the last potions describe the like of pureland as indicated
Conviction
Translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
"For a lay person, there are these five rewards of conviction. Which
five?
"When the truly good people in the world show compassion, they will
first show compassion to people of conviction, and not to people
without conviction. When visiting, they first visit people of
conviction, and not people without conviction. When accepting gifts,
they will first accept those from people with conviction, and not
from people without conviction. When teaching the Dhamma, they will
first teach those with conviction, and not those without conviction.
A person of conviction, on the break-up of the body, after death,
will arise in a good destination, the heavenly world. For a lay
person, these are the five rewards of conviction.
"Just as a large banyan tree, on level ground where four roads meet,
is a haven for the birds all around, even so a lay person of
conviction is a haven for many people: monks, nuns, male lay
followers, & female lay followers."
A massive tree
whose branches carry fruits & leaves,
with trunks & roots
& an abundance of fruits:
There the birds find rest.
In that delightful sphere
they make their home.
Those seeking shade
come to the shade,
those seeking fruit
find fruit to eat.
So with the person consummate
in virtue & conviction,
humble, sensitive, gentle,
delightful, & mild:
To him come those without effluent —
free from passion,
free from aversion,
free from delusion —
the field of merit for the world.
They(noble beings) teach him the Dhamma
that dispels all stress.
And when he understands,
he is freed from effluents,
totally unbound.---