Tolerance for 'relativism'?
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Originally posted by Isis:
there are ways.
However, even if we learn from a venerable, we are encouraged to learn to explore the teaching ourselves so as to clear our doubts. This enhance learnings. Sometime we don't know whether the venerable or dharma lay teacher is truly enlightened, there are people who advocate false dharma... it could not be wise to accept these teachings blindly right if we don't understand ourselves?
Buddhist is free to believe in what they want. What type of strict practise you are refering to? It's very much free-will from my understanding.[/b]
Finding the "right teacher"
by Lim Kooi Fong, The Buddhist News Network, Jan 14, 2004
http://www.buddhistnews.tv/current/thubten-chodron-140104.php
Ven. Thubten Chodron, on the Malaysian leg of her Asian tour, talks about an age old problem faced by practitioners: How does one find a teacher that is "suitable"? What does being suitable mean? And suitable for who? Lim Kooi Fong finds out in his hour long interview with the learned Venerable.
in the Lam-drön, A Lamp for the Path to Enlightenment
http://www.budaedu.org/ghosa/C008/T0183/index.php3?snd_page=3&ref_page=1#snd, do say how u can judge a good teacher thru 10 characteristics. but due to dharma ending, if u can find 3 or 4 characteristics of a teacher, it is very good already.
it also said u must need a student characteristics, before a teacher can find u.
that's to say if u have the standard of a good student, and when u follow any teacher, u will still accomprise the way. as one do not judge if the teacher do bad, u reflect back to oneself, hence accomprisement.
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Oh... Ok...Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Really up to them then.. but if contradict Buddhist belief then really have to question what is it that contradicts Buddhist belief, is it against the 8 Fold Path and is that condusive to enlightenment? If that is not condusive to enlightenment better not follow it.
Up to you whether you want to explore or not.. but as a Buddhist one should ask "Is this against the 3 Dharma Seals/4 Seals?" Is it condusive to enlightenment or a hindrance to enlightenment?
But what if it's a hindrance to enlightenment...? Would they be encouraged to explore nonetheless..? Would they be allowed to..? Would they be considered to be on the path of straying if they do? Would they be tolerated if the do? -
See the Kalama Sutta - "Buddha's charter on free inquiry" which I posted in this topic. Everyone is allowed to explore but whether to accept it we must use wisdom and not blindly follow them.Originally posted by Devil1976:Oh... Ok...
But what if it's a hindrance to enlightenment...? Would they be encouraged to explore nonetheless..? Would they be allowed to..? Would they be considered to be on the path of straying if they do? Would they be tolerated if the do?
If it is uncondusive to enlightenment, probably it means it will add more "greed, hatred, ignorance", so we should not follow them. It's not a matter of whether it be allowed... nobody can really stop you from following foolishly and doing foolishly. -
But if we're learning... And we don't know who's genuine and who's not... Believe not the scripts or anything presented to us... Then how do we know if what we might be taught is the 'true path to enlightenment'...?Originally posted by Isis:Hi im not an enlightened being..
However, i just want to say that dharma teachings are Profound.
It is not like memorising or understanding physic concepts or maths.
It is rather different.
Venerable spend time or even devote their life to learn, understand and realise Dharma. When they are qualified to teach us, human being like us will of course feel more comfortable and safer to learn from a qualified person. This is why Buddhist are encouraged to seek refuge in Triple Treasures
Buddha, Dharma and Sangha ( Monks and nuns). Sangha are there to guide us.
However, even if we learn from a venerable, we are encouraged to learn to explore the teaching ourselves so as to clear our doubts. This enhance learnings. Sometime we don't know whether the venerable or dharma lay teacher is truly enlightened, there are people who advocate false dharma... it could not be wise to accept these teachings blindly right if we don't understand ourselves?
Buddhist is free to believe in what they want. What type of strict practise you are refering to? It's very much free-will from my understanding. -
Hi im not an enlightened being. i can only be able to offer a little bit of insight from my limited knowledge.In buddhism, there is 84000 dharma doors ( many ways for you to gain enlightenment). Different people have differents needs. Buddhism do not have a fixed one true path for you. Instead, you can find the path that suits you best so that you can gain enlightenment quicker.Originally posted by Devil1976:But if we're learning... And we don't know who's genuine and who's not... Believe not the scripts or anything presented to us... Then how do we know if what we might be taught is the 'true path to enlightenment'...?
u might want to refer to Sinwey's posting above as in charactertistic of a finding a good teachers. Dharma seals ( refer to An external Now) to identify the right dharma teachings ( the essence of the wisdom reside within the reading materials ) These are some guideline.
How do you know if what we might be taught is the 'true path to enlightenment?'
This question is rather tricky. As i have said im not enlightened.Thus i took out some simile and Quotes from Ajahn Chah ( Venerable )... I hope it helps to answer your questions.
"Dhamma is in your mind, not in the forest. Don't believe others. Just listen to your mind. You don't have to go and look anywhere else. Wisdom is in yourself, just like a sweet ripe mango is already in a young green one."
"Once there was a layman who came to Ajahn Chah and asked him who Ajahn Chah was. Ajahn Chah, seeing that the spiritual development of the individual was not very advanced, pointed to himself and said, This, this is Ajahn Chah."
"Once there was a layman who came to Ajahn Chah and asked him who Ajahn Chah was. Ajahn Chah, seeing that the questioners capacity to understand the Dhamma was higher, Ajahn Chah answered by saying Ajahn Chah? There is NO Ajahn Chah!"
"First you understand the Dhamma with your thoughts. If you begin to understand it, you will practice it. And if you practice it, you will begin to see it. And when you see it, you are the Dhamma, and you have the joy of the Buddha."
"You are your own teacher. Looking for teachers can't solve your own doubts. Investigate yourself to find the truth - inside, not outside. Knowing yourself is most important."
"Outward scriptural study is not important. Of course, the Dhamma books are correct, but they are not right. They cannot give you right understanding. To see the word anger in print is not the same as experiencing anger. Only experiencing yourself can give you the true faith"
"Just know what is happening in your mind - not happy or sad about it, not attached. If you suffer see it, know it, and be empty. It's like a letter - you have to open it before you can know what's in it."
Once a visitor asked Ajahn Chah if he was an arahant. He said, I am like a tree in a forest. Birds come to the tree, they sit on its branches and eat its fruits. To the birds, the fruit may be sweet or sour or whatever. The birds say sweet or they say sour, but from the trees point of view, this is just the chattering of birds."
"Someone commented, I can observe desire and aversion in my mind, but its hard to observe delusion. You're riding on a horse and asking where the horse is! was Ajahn Chah's reply."
http://www.bodhinyanarama.net.nz/acquote.htm -
Originally posted by Isis:
Hmm... Quite CHEEM...?
Hi im not an enlightened being. i can only be able to offer a little bit of insight from my limited knowledge.In buddhism, there is 84000 dharma doors ( many ways for you to gain enlightenment). Different people have differents needs. Buddhism do not have a fixed one true path for you. Instead, you can find the path that suits you best so that you can gain enlightenment quicker.
u might want to refer to Sinwey's posting above as in charactertistic of a finding a good teachers. Dharma seals ( refer to An external Now) to identify the right dharma teachings ( the essence of the wisdom reside within the reading materials ) These are some guideline.
How do you know if what we might be taught is the 'true path to enlightenment?'
This question is rather tricky. As i have said im not enlightened.Thus i took out some simile and Quotes from Ajahn Chah ( Venerable )... I hope it helps to answer your questions.
[b]
"Dhamma is in your mind, not in the forest. Don't believe others. Just listen to your mind. You don't have to go and look anywhere else. Wisdom is in yourself, just like a sweet ripe mango is already in a young green one."
"Once there was a layman who came to Ajahn Chah and asked him who Ajahn Chah was. Ajahn Chah, seeing that the spiritual development of the individual was not very advanced, pointed to himself and said, This, this is Ajahn Chah."
"Once there was a layman who came to Ajahn Chah and asked him who Ajahn Chah was. Ajahn Chah, seeing that the questioners capacity to understand the Dhamma was higher, Ajahn Chah answered by saying Ajahn Chah? There is NO Ajahn Chah!"
"First you understand the Dhamma with your thoughts. If you begin to understand it, you will practice it. And if you practice it, you will begin to see it. And when you see it, you are the Dhamma, and you have the joy of the Buddha."
"You are your own teacher. Looking for teachers can't solve your own doubts. Investigate yourself to find the truth - inside, not outside. Knowing yourself is most important."
"Outward scriptural study is not important. Of course, the Dhamma books are correct, but they are not right. They cannot give you right understanding. To see the word anger in print is not the same as experiencing anger. Only experiencing yourself can give you the true faith"
"Just know what is happening in your mind - not happy or sad about it, not attached. If you suffer see it, know it, and be empty. It's like a letter - you have to open it before you can know what's in it."
Once a visitor asked Ajahn Chah if he was an arahant. He said, I am like a tree in a forest. Birds come to the tree, they sit on its branches and eat its fruits. To the birds, the fruit may be sweet or sour or whatever. The birds say sweet or they say sour, but from the trees point of view, this is just the chattering of birds."
"Someone commented, I can observe desire and aversion in my mind, but its hard to observe delusion. You're riding on a horse and asking where the horse is! was Ajahn Chah's reply."
http://www.bodhinyanarama.net.nz/acquote.htm
[/b]
But as of my previous question... If we cannot trust verse or people who try to tell of... How can we know if we can trust Ajahn Chah's words and heed his advices...
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By realising those words for yourself. Reject them if necessary. Reject them even if the words are true but not relevant to your own life.Originally posted by Devil1976:Hmm... Quite CHEEM...?
But as of my previous question... If we cannot trust verse or people who try to tell of... How can we know if we can trust Ajahn Chah's words and heed his advices... -
Hi Ajahn Chah never demand u to trust him.Originally posted by Devil1976:Hmm... Quite CHEEM...?
But as of my previous question... If we cannot trust verse or people who try to tell of... How can we know if we can trust Ajahn Chah's words and heed his advices...
The reasons why i put quotes and smile was for you to decide for yourself.
I can't tell you what to do. By the same reasoning, Ajahn Chah cannot tell you what and how to do. You are a person who can think for himself.
You have to decide whether you want to trust him.
U can refer to the 'Dharma seal' that indicate whether the teaching is right. This is passed down by Buddha. If the teaching is right, most likely you can trust him. But of course, you hve a mind of your own, you have to decide your own course of path -
Reject seems like strong word to me. u can brush aside those that is not necessary to you but pls note tht if you don't understand something, that does not mean it is wrong.Originally posted by casino_king:By realising those words for yourself. Reject them if necessary. Reject them even if the words are true but not relevant to your own life.
sometime it is due to lack of revelant informations and the wisdom to understand. We have to investigate to acertain whether it is wrong or correct.
For example, during an argument, you have to allow there someone to explain to you his or her stand. Instead labelling the person as guilty without an explaination. we need to know her reasons to see 2 side of the coins and in order for there we need to have more informations to decide.
Another example is, a person who has been raped can understand the feeling and experience as rape victim. ( just an example, no offence to anyone
) Similary when someone has to undergo training to be chef, will one become a qualified chef.
There people who learn how to cycle pretty fast and without hurting themselves. There are people who took a long time and painful multi-trys but did they manage to learn cycling in the end. Similary, we have to undergo many painful lessons in life to understand and gain some wisdom of life.
In dharma, it is about the same. We have to work hard to cultivate ourselves.
Triple Gems help to guide our way. There are pointers but in the end we still have to go there by ourselves. -
Agree...Originally posted by Isis:In dharma, it is about the same. We have to work hard to cultivate ourselves.
Triple Gems help to guide our way. There are pointers but in the end we still have to go there by ourselves.
"You must walk the path yourself," says the Buddha, "the Tathagata (Buddha) only points the way." -
Would that still be Buddhism then...?Originally posted by casino_king:By realising those words for yourself. Reject them if necessary. Reject them even if the words are true but not relevant to your own life.
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If we 'decide our own course', is it ok even if we stray from Buddhism...?Originally posted by Isis:Hi Ajahn Chah never demand u to trust him.
The reasons why i put quotes and smile was for you to decide for yourself.
I can't tell you what to do. By the same reasoning, Ajahn Chah cannot tell you what and how to do. You are a person who can think for himself.
You have to decide whether you want to trust him.
U can refer to the 'Dharma seal' that indicate whether the teaching is right. This is passed down by Buddha. If the teaching is right, most likely you can trust him. But of course, you hve a mind of your own, you have to decide your own course of path
Sorry but I'm not familar with the 'Dharma seal'.... But can we trust it...? Must we? How do we know we're even holding on to the original correct version... -
Buddhism isn't the same as other religion that requires u to have absolute faith.It is ok to stray from buddhism even when you decide on other course of my path. In fact it is absolutely alright. If you are happier with other path, so be it.Originally posted by Devil1976:If we 'decide our own course', is it ok even if we stray from Buddhism...?
Sorry but I'm not familar with the 'Dharma seal'.... But can we trust it...? Must we? How do we know we're even holding on to the original correct version... 
i am not enlightened and wise. This is a hard question.
How do u know when u are holdin onto correct teachings. You will know de and this depends on your affinity with buddhism.