Great Awakening seeking questions
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1. Saying onions skin peel bit by bit for gradual enlightenment ,what about a knife thrust rite into the heart of the onion ?
2.Where do one stand when one enlightened ?
3.What kind of wisdom is suchness ?
4.Who is being reborn when we attain our Dharmakaya ? -
Personally I do not go with the slowly slowly school. This means that everybody is Enlightened to a more or less degree. Buddha would not have said: I am no longer the person you previously knew.Originally posted by bohiruci:1. Saying onions skin peel bit by bit for gradual enlightenment ,what about a knife thrust rite into the heart of the onion ?
2.Where do one stand when one enlightened ?
3.What kind of wisdom is suchness ?
4.Who is being reborn when we attain our Dharmakaya ?
I much prefer to think that after enlightenment, one moves towards Buddhahood.
So it is a one time sudden awakening then gradual path to greater and greater evolution. It is like without becoming human and remaining an ape; it is totally impossible, no matter how much time you spend with the ape, for it to become more and more human.
The wisdom is the wisdom that enables the enlightened person to grow.
I do not know what is Dharmakaya. -
Hi Casino King,
I think you are very sharp and intuitive. -
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Sudden Awaken is like chop off the head
as mentioned in Ven Master Hui lu on 6th Patriach Hui Neng Platform Sutra
not 42 stage of gradual enlightenment
that is why tientai much different from Chan school -
then this should be posted here:
SUDDEN OR GRADUAL ENLIGHTENMENT?
by Rev.Vajra Karuna
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/awakening101/sudgrad2.html
quote:
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Sudden Enlightenment may come to one, but unless he or she is prepared to recognize it, and even more importantly to integrate it into his or her everyday psychological being, it will almost certainly come only to slip away.
Neither the Gradualist nor the Suddenist approach can guarantee Enlightenment, but each in their own way can give one a chance at gaining it. For the person who can commit him or herself to a fully monastic life the Gradual way may offer more hope than the Sudden way. For those who can not make such a dramatic commitment it may be the Sudden way that offers the hope. Like all religious and philosophical views various rational arguments can be made to support either a Gradualist or Suddenist approach, but the bottom line is that neither can be logically proven nor disproven. Both, in the final analysis, depend largely upon faith. Indeed, all schools of Buddhism, if not all religious traditions, require a strong faith component before any real Spiritual Awakening can occur.
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fyi, from my archive note translation:
It's said from Master Yi Guang Da Shi that Chan practitioners must have good roots in order to practice Chan and gain Great Awakening. They need great fortunes of 7 dynasties of Emperor's rebirth and great wisdom of 9 rebirths of Top imperial scholar. It's with such roots that can one be able to attain enlightenment, if not it become nothing else but Chan of words. And when speak of 7 dynasties of Emperor's rebirth, it does not mean Presidency. Presidency only last for 4 years but Emperors have such great merits that they can summon people, and all lands are belong to HimÂ…such merits! Moreover, being a Top imperial scholar is also not easy. Best of the best in the
entire country! Now there's seldom heard of one such Chan Master. Old
Master Xu yun was one of a last Chan Masters, and look what he encourage 90 % want us to do, recite Amitabha. Then what about Vajrayana, it a great vehicle; founder Samantabhadra Bodhisattva; but see what he say and vowed in Infinite Life sutra: - "The Western Pure Land is the ultimate destination for practicing Samantabhadra's Ten Great Vows."
Now to be able to believe and have no doubts in PL is also not easy as said in Amitabha Sutra. Did we too have greats merits? One can read the Infinite Life sutra, and you'll know. A Prince Ah Se Wang who met and adored 400 billion Buddhas in the past but he did not say he wanted to take rebirth in PL, nor did 500 great elders. This mean their merits are still not enough! If we had vowed to take rebirth in PL that would mean that our merits exceeded Prince Ah Se Wang and the 500 elders. We have actually met and adored countless Buddhas, not 400 billion Buddhas, as 400 billion Buddhas are still countable! For countless time and rebirth, we have been taking rebirths and do not know why PL. The problem is they doubted PL.
Take a look at ants. For how long did they dell in samsara? 7 Buddha's rebirth! And they are still attached to their bodies. How pitiful.
amtf,
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Originally posted by casino_king:
Embodimnet of Truth.
I do not know what is Dharmakaya.[/b]
Dharma = fa
kaya = body/sheng1
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what are great awakening seeking questions?
u mean the questions use to ask during meditating that could give a flash of awakening to truth? -
Questions that will riddle your mind and propel you to seek enlightenmentOriginally posted by paperflower:what are great awakening seeking questions?
u mean the questions use to ask during meditating that could give a flash of awakening to truth?
If you dun have questions of your existence in this saha world ,you will never want to seek enlightenment -
Kind of understanding your reasoning...Originally posted by sinweiy:fyi, from my archive note translation:
It's said from Master Yi Guang Da Shi that Chan practitioners must have good roots in order to practice Chan and gain Great Awakening. They need great fortunes of 7 dynasties of Emperor's rebirth and great wisdom of 9 rebirths of Top imperial scholar. It's with such roots that can one be able to attain enlightenment, if not it become nothing else but Chan of words. And when speak of 7 dynasties of Emperor's rebirth, it does not mean Presidency. Presidency only last for 4 years but Emperors have such great merits that they can summon people, and all lands are belong to HimÂ…such merits! Moreover, being a Top imperial scholar is also not easy. Best of the best in the
entire country! Now there's seldom heard of one such Chan Master. Old
Master Xu yun was one of a last Chan Masters, and look what he encourage 90 % want us to do, recite Amitabha. Then what about Vajrayana, it a great vehicle; founder Samantabhadra Bodhisattva; but see what he say and vowed in Infinite Life sutra: - "The Western Pure Land is the ultimate destination for practicing Samantabhadra's Ten Great Vows."
Now to be able to believe and have no doubts in PL is also not easy as said in Amitabha Sutra. Did we too have greats merits? One can read the Infinite Life sutra, and you'll know. A Prince Ah Se Wang who met and adored 400 billion Buddhas in the past but he did not say he wanted to take rebirth in PL, nor did 500 great elders. This mean their merits are still not enough! If we had vowed to take rebirth in PL that would mean that our merits exceeded Prince Ah Se Wang and the 500 elders. We have actually met and adored countless Buddhas, not 400 billion Buddhas, as 400 billion Buddhas are still countable! For countless time and rebirth, we have been taking rebirths and do not know why PL. The problem is they doubted PL.
Take a look at ants. For how long did they dell in samsara? 7 Buddha's rebirth! And they are still attached to their bodies. How pitiful.
amtf,
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but maybe I should said Pureland and Chan have no difference
and some of the points maybe u based somewhere ,but from my understanding and
the Tibetan Buddhism lineage is that
the founder of Vajrayana is not Samantabhadra ,it is rather Buddha Sakyamuni
Hope we understand Vairocana is the Dharma body of Buddha Sakyamuni
and the first patriach that all Tibetan Buddhism agree is Vajrapani
The Vajra Hand Bodhisattva
Samantabhadra Bodhisattva is the tibetan manifestation of Vajrasattva
I believe Tibetan Buddhist who explore more will give you a better idea
and the ants story should be in this way
Once when Buddha Sakyamuni was about to preach
He chanced upon a school of ants climbing up the tree
Using his meditative power , He understand this ants have been ants for the life of Seven Buddhas before
the purpose is for us to cherish the importance of being human and not wasting time on pursuit of desire
Maybe would like to check on the Ah se wang ... can u post a chinese character image using Photobucket, I dun quite get the part on that
that will be nice to the forummer here
With Humility
Bohiruci -
Originally posted by bohiruci:
maybe, i shouldn't use 'founder'. i know Samantabhadra is Bodhisattva of bodhisattva and His Great Pure conduct is foremost indeed.
Maybe would like to check on the Ah se wang ... can u post a chinese character image using Photobucket, I dun quite get the part on that
that will be nice to the forummer here
With Humility
Bohiruci
[/b]
wat can u tell us abt relation of Samantabhadra Bodhisattva and Samantabhadra Buddha, the Primordial Buddha?
the english name is Ajatasatru. if u watch Buddhist cartoon, got his story.At that time, in the great city of Rajagrha, there was a prince named Ajatasatru. Following the counsel of Devadatta, an evil friend, he arrested his father, King Bimbisara, and confined him in a cell surrounded by walls seven layers deep, forbidding any officials or ministers from going there. The queen, whose name was Vaidehi, remained loyal to the king. Purifying herself by bathing, she anointed her body with an ointment of cream and honey mixed with wheat flour, and filled her ornaments with grape juice. She then offered them to the king in secret. ---The Sutra of Visualization of the Buddha of Infinite Life as Expounded by Shakyamuni Buddha
http://www.cloudwater.org/visualization.html
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and in Lotus sutra:Later Ajatasatru, who was also at first an enemy of the Buddha, became a disciple and generously contributed to the Sangha. In the Sutras he was said to have learned the confession and attained the enduring gentleness from Manjusri. Having committed what is among the most grave of the premeditated sins, he should have fallen into the Avici (Interminable) Hell but instead he only entered the Pindala Hell (a relatively painless purgatory) from which he was quickly released, later to enter into the Buddha Realm as the Bodhisattva Steadfast and receive his prophecy of future enlightenment.
http://www.tientai.net/lit/LS/LS1/LS1audience7ajase.htm
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Where did you get this information of Samantabhadra Buddha ,the primordial Buddha ?Originally posted by sinweiy:
Show me which sutra u based upon in your discussion
thanks -
Originally posted by bohiruci:
it was mentioned in esangha
Where did you get this information of Samantabhadra Buddha ,the primordial Buddha ?
Show me which sutra u based upon in your discussion
thanks [/b]
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/lofiversion/index.php/t19445.html
henry oso talk abt it.
did a search:
http://sg.search.yahoo.com/search?p=Samantabhadra+primordial+&y=All+the+Web&ei=UTF-8&fl=0&meta=0&0&fr=FP-tab-img-t&b=21
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okie , great effort for finding the resource , just keep on in that directionsOriginally posted by sinweiy:it was mentioned in esangha
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/lofiversion/index.php/t19445.html
henry oso talk abt it.
did a search:
http://sg.search.yahoo.com/search?p=Samantabhadra+primordial+&y=All+the+Web&ei=UTF-8&fl=0&meta=0&0&fr=FP-tab-img-t&b=21
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Everyone in the forum have the right to know where and the source it is mentioned
thanks
Namo Amitabha
Homage to Buddha Amitabha and the Lotus Assembly of Sages of Buddhas and Bodhisattva -
Yong Ming Yan Shou* Chan Master 10th Patriach of Pureland Writes
With Chan and Pureland
its like a tiger with horns
........
Praising the practice of Chan Practice and Pureland Teaching -
Originally posted by bohiruci:Questions that will riddle your mind and propel you to seek enlightenment
If you dun have questions of your existence in this saha world ,you will never want to seek enlightenment Sorry, I thought it should be if you are no pure or cleansed in mind will ended you with a lot of questions which will delay your enlightenment.
Once enlighted, you don't need to be enlighted again.It should be concentrating on mediation or something like this or practising instead of questioning.
Use normal heart to feel thing and everything will be normal..I hope my statement is right.. -
Normal (pin chang xing) is also a methodOriginally posted by king108: Sorry, I thought it should be if you are no pure or cleansed in mind will ended you with a lot of questions which will delay your enlightenment.
Once enlighted, you don't need to be enlighted again.It should be concentrating on mediation or something like this or practising instead of questioning.
Use normal heart to feel thing and everything will be normal..I hope my statement is right..
Great ,you does know about the teaching of Chan Patriach Ma Zu
here is an precious URL on chan lineage
http://www.dabase.net/buddhism.htm
the biography of ma tzu (ma zu ) chan master is inside
http://www.dabase.net/matsu.htm
Keep posting -
i see....Originally posted by bohiruci:Questions that will riddle your mind and propel you to seek enlightenment
If you dun have questions of your existence in this saha world ,you will never want to seek enlightenment
the questions seem to be there but when try to pick them out, they don't seem to be there.
why is that so?
would you like to try to find the questions to the answers?
kekeee......
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Merry Meet To All,
Well personally i do not see a need to seek answers to any questions, as the answers might be just beside you all these while. Why seek for answers when they are already there. Perhaps in time you will see these so called answers you seek is nothing but sands of time... dust that scattered with winds of change...on your path to enlightenment...
Blessed Be,
Oceanos -
Originally posted by OCEANOS:
A mind full of schemes is not lack of answers so questions are asked but no answers expected. The purpose is to lead us to the unfathomably deep and rest in the place empty of known. To be alive, we need to experience the wonder that arises out of silence. This is the path of the traceless.
[b]Merry Meet To All,
Well personally i do not see a need to seek answers to any questions, as the answers might be just beside you all these while. Why seek for answers when they are already there. Perhaps in time you will see these so called answers you seek is nothing but sands of time... dust that scattered with winds of change...on your path to enlightenment...
Blessed Be,
Oceanos[/b] -
Those questions sound very much like koans indeed..Originally posted by Thusness:A mind full of schemes is not lack of answers so questions are asked but no answers expected. The purpose is to lead us to the unfathomably deep and rest in the place empty of known. To be alive, we need to experience the wonder that arises out of silence. This is the path of the traceless. -
Yes indeed.. from my previous post:Originally posted by bohiruci:Questions that will riddle your mind and propel you to seek enlightenment
If you dun have questions of your existence in this saha world ,you will never want to seek enlightenment
The Zen masters would tell you, for enlightenment to occur, you need doubt. And as my Master said, and many other Zen masters said, we Not only need doubt, as small doubt can only produce small realisations, but GREAT DOUBT (of intense questioning) will produce Great Enlightenment. By great doubt, a person persistantly inquires on his Koan until he reaches breakthrough. 'Great Faith, Great Doubt, Great Determination' are three needs of zen practise.http://www2.bc.cc.ca.us/resperic/science_and_spirituality.htm
A.H.Almaas: "Well the first thing about inquiry, is to recognise that we don't know basic things about ourselves and reality. To have the humility to NOT KNOW. And also to have the courage. It's very scary to say 'I don't know who I am; what I am', or to know what is going on now. First that's the opening is the humility to acknowledge we don't know. In science they call it doubt or scepticism. But here it is not really doubt or scepticism. The doubt and scepticism turns into an emotional thing. What here is just an openness. 'I don't really know'. After that, is the love to find out. The heart-felt appreciation of 'What is the truth of us? What I am? What am I? What is humanity? What is reality? What is God?', from a loving and also curious place. So that's the general inquiry about knowing about spiritual nature. There are many things that will help us - steadfastness; courageous; an openness and curiosity that brings in questions."
“Great faith” in Zen practice refers to a trust in the process, as demonstrated by the many who have gone on before, as well as a firm trust in one’s capabilities to see the essential nature of reality for oneself. In scientific work, “great faith” refers to a trust in the scientific method, successfully applied by scientists of the past, as well as an underlying belief in one’s inherent capability to understand the phenomena being studied.
“Great doubt” in Zen refers to a willingness to profoundly question all of one’s most cherished beliefs, and ultimately to uproot them. Beliefs are but concepts, floating on the surface. The conceptual realm may be useful at times, but compulsive attachment to particular concepts is a hindrance to penetrating to deeper levels of realization of the fundamental nature of reality, which is beyond all concepts. An ancient Chinese saying states that when a wise man points his finger to the moon, the fool sees only his finger. In science, “great doubt” is based on a realization that the model is not the reality. Being too attached to a particular hypothesis or theory can prevent one from arriving at a better theory that reflects a deeper understanding of the phenomena of interest.
“Great determination” in Zen is required in order to not give in to laziness. The process may take some time, and without determination one may never attain deep realization. In fact, there is no deepest realization, and only by great determination will one keep going deeper. Of course the same can be said of scientific research. -
Be the big question mark and ride on the cloud of unknowing, without arbitary thought, experience the immediate! At that moment whatever it is, it is entire.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Those questions sound very much like koans indeed.. -
Yes... the Truth naturally reveals itself like thisOriginally posted by Thusness:Be the big question mark and ride on the cloud of unknowing, without arbitary thought, experience the immediate! At that moment whatever it is, it is entire.
'Only keep this don't know mind' - Zen Master Seung Sahn
p.s Toni Packer's new book The Silent Question: Meditating in the Stillness of Not-Knowing will be released in 'Spring 2007'