Is reality like quantum physics?
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Dear experienced ones, especially Thusness,
I will like to seek your wisdom and experience.
Is Reality like quantum physics?
In Quantum physics, subatomic particles can be immaterial waves as well. Likewise, form/thought/perception is pure awareness/presence. Form/thought is pure awareness in its 'manifestation stage'. Pure awareness is 'essense stage'. There is this continuous change from manifestion to essense and so on so forth. Continuous stream of moment and change. There is no separation, but this very everchanging-ness.
However, through subtle intuitive knowingness, thought dissolves back to pure awareness. More and more of thoughts dissolve/revert back as the 'immediate' presence.
Thanks and kind regards. -
Actually Quantum Physics is based on Reality.
Whatever claims Quantum Physics made can be independently observed.
Scientists can do the experiments independently to verify the claims.
When you try to extend Quantum Physics findings into consciousness; you have moved from science into speculation. It is no longer science; even though your speculation proceeded from Quantum Physics.
Quantum Physics made no associations between particles and thoughts. -
Hi Casino King,
You do not know what I am talking about.
Only a person with transcendental experience can explain this thing. However, these transcendental experiences can have much subtleties and misunderstanding as well. So I am seeking the advice of persons who have better clarity and understanding from these experiences.
I am not writing from mental speculation, but from intuitiveness. But then, these intuitiveness can have very subtle misconception as well. -
To try to tie these experiences to Quantum Physics is a waste of time. You are better off cultivating then to try to tie it to science.Originally posted by longchen:Hi Casino King, You do not know what I am talking about.
Only a person with transcendental experience can explain this thing. However, these transcendental experiences can have much subtleties and misunderstanding as well. So I am seeking the advice of persons who have better clarity and understanding from these experiences.
I am not writing from mental speculation, but from intuitiveness. But then, these intuitiveness can have very subtle misconception as well.
Actually if you boil it all down, there are 2 things you need to observe only. One: Elimination of Suffering (within yourself) and Compassion (outside of yourself.)
So you do your cultivation and to see if you are going along the right path, keep asking yourself if you are suffering less and less and becoming more and more compassionate. If you are, continue. If you are not seek help.
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Hi, have you bought the book The Holographic Universe? It is a great book which contents are derived from amazing findings out of quantum physics and neuroscience. People of all sorts became were convinced with this model of reality after they found that the current model is unsatisfatory. Thusness said The book is about Consciousness as wave. Though not all its content is relevant, it is pretty good read and close to Buddhism. And even in meditative experience, we experience what that is being described.
Also for those who would like to read more, there is also a book with high ratings called: The Universe in a Single Atom : The Convergence of Science and Spirituality written by the Dalai Lama himself. This book has received many good reviews so I believe it'd be worth reading although I haven't read that book before. Perhaps Casino_King may too wish to check this book out.
The Dalai Lama's interest in science began when he was a small boy, shut away with elderly tutors in the gigantic Potala Palace in Lhasa, Tibet. He tells the story of spending hours and hours tinkering with the mechanical objects left there by his predecessor, the 13th Dalai Lama. Some readers will be surprised to see that his fascination with mechanics, science and technology was established then and has long flourished despite his having had no formal education in the sciences.
About a decade after his exile in 1959 he began traveling extensively, and ever since he's enjoyed long friendships with many scientists, including the late renowned philosopher of science Sir Karl Popper, physicist Carl von Weizs�cker and the late quantum physicist David Bohm. This knowledge is the basis for the book and HH convenes neuroscientists and Buddhist scholars to define the next steps in the study of the mind and brain. These have typically been intimate meetings at his residence in Dharamsala, India. The descriptions are heavy and deep. It's not an easy read but it is a highly enlightening one. The main thrust of the book is how science and Buddhism share a common objective: to serve humanity and create a better understanding of the world. Science offers powerful tools for understanding the interconnectedness of all life, he says. Indeed!
Another book I enjoyed recently is "The Emotional Intelligence Quick Book." I saw it was endorsed by The Dalai Lama and it's a fascinating look at research and strategies around being more aware of our emotions and using them to our benefit. It let me test my own EQ online, which was neat.
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--The Dalai Lama has been interested in science since childhood, and has collaborated with some of the best minds in science and psychology for many years. This book gives some perspectives on that collaboration. The author discusses evolution and consciousness, "karma" and causality, how we may improve reliability in knowledge, how we can manage unprovable concepts we believe to be true, how a refined Awareness can be used to help understand our mind and consciousness, a Buddhist perspective on genetic engineering, and above all else, the benefits of combining Wisdom and Compassion. The author notes that scientists, too, can and should add wisdom and compassion to their knowledge, and suggests they not just let their discoveries be managed by political leaders, lawyers, bureaucrats, financiers, or the media (gulp!). The author also warmly introduces us to his educational background and gives marvelous insights into classical Buddhist and Hindu views of issues that still intrigue Western philosophers and scientists. He also discusses why we may encounter a "dual nature" of truth -- for instance, we are innately comfortable with a classical explanation for everyday events even when we know that we encounter a profoundly non-classical reality at the atomic or psychological level. This book makes a superb addition to all the wonderful books on quantum science, cognitive science, and cosmology.
--In my opinion, BY FAR THE MOST VALUABLE GIFT OF THIS BOOK is the irreplaceably valuable perspective of a credibly Wise Human Being. One significant difference between valid science and spirituality is that science focuses on Knowledge while the spiritual approach seeks Wisdom (which includes compassion and ethics). Both should use integrity to seek truth. Because this latter goal is shared, many scientists (including atheists) respect one such as the Dalai Lama and have been more than eager to share their insights with him (I attended a recent medical conference and more than one leading scientist said that amidst all their years of honor and success in highly competitive and intellectually demanding fields, the chance to discuss their views with the Dalai Lama was the high point of their lives). The Dalai Lama does not have a technical degree, he may not have published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, and his knowledge of mathematics is not great, but he provides an irreplaceably valuable perspecitve -- a credibly wise, humble, and compassionate human being who embraces, understands, and appreciates scientific knowledge. It's not always an easy read, sometimes you have to suspend your judgment for a few pages, and you won't agree with everything but it's a remarkable book.
--Those interested in spirituality should also find an appreciation of scientific knowledge will enrich their practices and their understanding. For instance, the author gives the best short technical description I have ever read of the Buddhist concept of Shunyata, often unsatisfactorily translated as Emptiness. Shunyata suggests that nothing has a detectable absolutely independent or unqualified existence, so instead of "things" or "ideas," we experience causally-connected interrelationships between essentially transient events. Giving an entity some artificially conceptual permanence is often useful, but is often done at our peril -- we cannot "possess" something we "desire" any more than we can "possess" a cloud or a fogbank (conceptually realizing this may be easy but integrating it into our lives is difficult). So Buddhist awareness, in addition to being a source of profound spiritual insight, can also add a valuable and cogent perspective to our understanding of Reality.
--I hope this review helps you and that you consider looking into this wonderful book. -
For many years, I have belonged to a Sutta study group in which we have read many of the key texts of the Pali canon, the earliest of the surviving Buddhist scriptures. We recently read the famous text (Sutta no. 63) in the Mahjima Nikaya, the mid-length discourses,in which the Buddha tried to discourage certain kinds of speculation by offering a simile based upon a poisoned arrow. If someone is struck by such an arrow, the important thing is to have it removed rather than to worry about the type of the arrow's wood or feathers, the clothing worn by the person who shot it, etc. The Buddha suggests that those who worry about certain metaphysical questions, such as whether the world is finite or infinite, whether the world is eternal or transient, or whether the soul is separate from the body or part of it, are like those people who ask irrelevant questions about the poisoned arrow rather than try to remove it as expeditiously as possible. This simile to me seems to capture something important about the relationship between Buddhist spirituality and certain scientific questions, and it encouraged me to read the Dalai Lama's recent book, "The Universe in a Single Atom."
His Holiness the Dalai Lama's eloquent book in fact discusses (pp. 77-7 this enigmatic Sutta together with the divergent interpretations it has received in Buddhist thought. Difficult as the Sutta is, I think it captures a great deal of the Dalai Lama's message in his book, both in his teachings themselves and especially in the tone and manner with which the Dalai Lama conveys his teachings.
The Dalai explores the Sutta I have mentioned in an appropriate place -- in the context of a discussion between the relationship between Buddhist thought and the big bang theory of the origin of the universe. The Sutta and the discussion suggest to me that spiritual questions have an urgency and immediacy of their own, notwithstanding scientific findings. But for me, the most revealing parts of this book were not the sections in which the Dalai Lama discusses the relationship between Buddhist thought and specific scientific teachings. Rather, I thought the most moving discussions were in the opening chapters and in the conclusion. In the opening chapters the Dalai Lama offers some personal biographical information about growing up in Tibet, his monastic training and teachers, and his budding interest in mechanical and scientific subjects. He describes with obvious affection the many Western scientists he has met over the years and how he has responded to what they have taught him. He also tries to draw a distinction between scientific study, which is based upon repeatable, empirical observation and theory -- what he describes as the standpoint of the "third party" and introspection and the search for meaning, which is subject of spirituality and of creative and altruistic endeavor. Science and spirituality freqently interpenetrate, for the Dalai Lama, and have much to give each other. He expands upon this discussion throughout his book and in its conclusion.
In successive chapters of his book, the Dalai Lama discusses, quantum physics, the big bang theory, and evolution. He frequently draws parallels between the results of contemporary science and the results of Buddhist thought. In some cases, he points out that scientific discoveries invalidate certain crude assumptions about the nature of the physical universe found in early Buddhist texts. He candidly recognizes that where specific scientific findings conflict with a Buddhist teaching, the Buddhist teaching must give way. But in other cases, the Dalai Lama is somewhat critial of scientifc theory. Thus, the Dalai Lama seems to suggest that the theory of evolution takes too little account of karma -- the nature of consciousness and intentionality -- that he believes necessary to a full understanding of the world. In my opinion, these criticisms of evolutionary theory are unnecessary to the weight of the Dalai Lama's message to look within, to study consciousness and to develop wisdom and compassion. In the process of discussing evolutionary theory, however, the Dalai Lama gives a lucid discussion of kamma, distinguishing it from simple mechanical causation of from the fatalism with which it is sometimes confused. Richard Petty makes this point in his excellent review on this site.
The strongest scientific discussions in the book are those of the last several chapters where the Dalai Lama discusses consciousness, as developed in Buddhist texts and in the practice of meditation. He suggests ways in which scientists working with the brain and meditators can interact in valuable ways that complement their respective practices without denying either of them. Because these discussions of consciousness and introspection involve subjects the Dalai Lama knows intimately and at first-hand, I found them more persuasive than some of the other writing in the book about the interaction between science and Buddhism.
What I took from this book, and from the Pali Sutta discussed at the outset of this review, is that, in some instances, such as those captured by the poisoned arrow simile, spiritual questions are separate from those of science but that in other instances these questions interpenetrate. (That is, a person trying to understand him or herself needs to understand where science belongs in that particular endeavor) The results of scientific investigation, including specifically evolutionary theory, must be respected. But whatever science teaches, one must try to understand oneself and one's feelings, to understand suffering and grief, and to work towards a development of wisdom, compassion, and understanding. This is the message I took from the Dalai Lama's wonderful book.
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Finally, a spiritual leader who isn't afraid of the facts. The Dalai Lama brings science and spirituality together with compassion and an open-mind. He wasn't afraid to say that he didn't know something, and he was concise in the areas that he knew very well. Namely Buddhism. He showed that there are a lot of similarities between modern science and ancient and contemporary mysticism. Plus he made a comment that I think needs to be understood by all people of faith everywhere, '...to defy the authority of emperical evidence is to disqualify oneself as someone worthy of critical engagement in a dialogue.' -
Hi An Eternal Now,
Thanks...
Hi Casino King,
The universe arises out of pure awareness/consciousness. It is not the other way round.
Scientist make a fundamental error in assuming that consciousness is the product of matter.
There is a relationship between consciousness, thought and the physical world.
Ponder upon this: If there is no thought and mind, will the physical world exist for you? -
When I am dead, will my thought and mind continue to exist? So many people died and yet doesn't the physical world continue to exist for the rest of us who are alive?Originally posted by longchen:Hi An Eternal Now,
Thanks...
Hi Casino King,
The universe arises out of pure awareness/consciousness. It is not the other way round.
Scientist make a fundamental error in assuming that consciousness is the product of matter.
There is a relationship between consciousness, thought and the physical world.
Ponder upon this: If there is no thought and mind, will the physical world exist for you? -
You still do not know what i am trying to convey...Originally posted by casino_king:When I am dead, will my thought and mind continue to exist? So many people died and yet doesn't the physical world continue to exist for the rest of us who are alive?
My 2 cents thought on this is that:
The world you see is the thought in your mind. No thought, the world does not exist for you. The world is a holographic projection... illusory!
The way of seeing/perception of most 'sentient beings' is a fundamental perceptual error. This way of perception is like chasing shadows... A cosmic gameplay... where player and game is the same.
There are no coincidence, accident or chances..in life... this can never happen! The universe is driven by unwavering synchronisation.
OK... let it be...
Anyway, have a nice day.
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I do not think that you can call it "an error." Some people percieve it this way and others, another way. The perception then becomes the reality. Whether one perception is better or not, it is definitely not "in error" or "correct."Originally posted by longchen:You still do not know what i am trying to convey...
My 2 cents thought on this is that:
The way of seeing/perception of most 'sentient beings' is a fundamental perceptual error. This way of perception is like chasing shadows... A cosmic gameplay... where player and game is the same.
OK... let it be...
Anyway, have a nice day.
When you understand this, you will go further in your understanding of emptiness. -
You have a very long way to go... And when you think you already know it , you have sealed and delayed your own progress...Originally posted by casino_king:I do not think that you can call it "an error." Some people percieve it this way and others, another way. The perception then becomes the reality. Whether one perception is better or not, it is definitely not "in error" or "correct."
When you understand this, you will go further in your understanding of emptiness.
All the best.
Sayonara Casino King -
nope..its Theoretical Physics instead
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OK Thanks for the tip. People know what they know but have no idea what they don't know.
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Yes, exactlyOriginally posted by casino_king:OK Thanks for the tip. People know what they know but have no idea what they don't know.
It is doubt that propels one towards greater and greater discoveries. -
Originally posted by longchen:
Hi Longchen,
Is Reality like quantum physics?
In Quantum physics, subatomic particles can be immaterial waves as well.
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You may want to grab the book ‘The Spiritual Universe’ by Fred Alan Wolf, it is a good read. He is a Ph.D in theoretical physics and described matter as follows:
“…Matter seemingly solid when observed on a scale of inches and seconds, was mostly empty space with tiny bits of something call probability clouds filling that space. These clouds are fundamental particles’ ‘tendencies to exist’ to somehow pop out of nothing and become coherent matter…”
If quantum reality is as what he described, then yes. In terms of reality as a “flux”, “tendencies to exist”, “non-locality” and collapsing of quantum waves, it is in line with Buddhist thought. One additional point I need to stress, the process itself knows. This point is missing. -
Yes Longchen,Originally posted by longchen:Likewise, form/thought/perception is pure awareness/presence. Form/thought is pure awareness in its 'manifestation stage'. Pure awareness is 'essense stage'. There is this continuous change from manifestion to essense and so on so forth. Continuous stream of moment and change. There is no separation, but this very everchanging-ness.
All is the emptiness nature of this luminous everchanging-ness at work. From manifestation to manifestation, essence isn’t lost. The manifestation itself knows; no knower needed. In both doingness and beingness, in activity or at rest, all is Presence with differing causes and conditions; but none is more superior to the other. When we impute no extra layer of abstraction and not label any states of experience as “purest”, then one truly enters the stream. The manifested and the un-manifest are one and inseparable, take out one and the other subsides. Analyze one without the other, and both are distorted. When the ‘self’ dissolves, outside and inside fuse, the mysterious connection of things is seen. How does the Presence arises? This is, that is. Experience the arising and the ceasing, zoom into the very heart of taste, smell, sight, touch, sound and thought and extend it beyond the six foot body, the trees, the sun, the light, the humming birds…All is and are the IS that never remains. Still the experience of “Thou are That” but this time with an Empty nature.
My two cents. -
Hi Thusness,Originally posted by Thusness:Yes Longchen,
All is the emptiness nature of this luminous everchanging-ness at work. From manifestation to manifestation, essence isn’t lost. The manifestation itself knows; no knower needed. In both doingness and beingness, in activity or at rest, all is Presence with differing causes and conditions; but none is more superior to the other. When we impute no extra layer of abstraction and not label any states of experience as “purest”, then one truly enters the stream. The manifested and the un-manifest are one and inseparable, take out one and the other subsides. Analyze one without the other, and both are distorted. When the ‘self’ dissolves, outside and inside fuse, the mysterious connection of things is seen. How does the Presence arises? This is, that is. Experience the arising and the ceasing, zoom into the very heart of taste, smell, sight, touch, sound and thought and extend it beyond the six foot body, the trees, the sun, the light, the humming birds…All is and are the IS that never remains. Still the experience of “Thou are That” but this time with an Empty nature.
My two cents.
I see... Thanks so much again.
Now, i see how subtly one state is believed to be more favourable than the other. Thanks again.
Have a nice day -
Or maybe Chemistry, Biology, English, and MathsOriginally posted by ceecookie:nope..its Theoretical Physics instead
Ok but.. seriously.. Reality is actually beyond all theories
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:The Perfect One is free from any theory, for the Perfect One has understood what the body is, and how it arises, and passes away. He has understood what feeling is, and how it arises, and passes away. He has understood what perception is, and how it arises, and passes away. He has understood what the mental formations are, and how they arise, and pass away. He has understood what consciousness is, and how it arises, and passes away.
Therefore, I say, the Perfect One has won complete deliverance through the extinction, fading away, disappearance, rejection, and getting rid of all opinions and conjectures, of all inclination to the vainglory of I and mine.
- Majjhima Nikaya, 72 -
- a friend -
No.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
- a friend -
how abt chaos theory.
Chaos theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses of the term, see Chaos Theory (disambiguation).
A plot of the trajectory Lorenz system for values r = 28, ó = 10, b = 8/3In mathematics and physics, chaos theory describes the behavior of certain nonlinear dynamical systems that under certain conditions exhibit a phenomenon known as chaos. Among the characteristics of chaotic systems, described below, is a sensitivity to initial conditions (popularly referred to as the butterfly effect). As a result of this sensitivity, the behavior of systems that exhibit chaos appears to be random, even though the system is deterministic in the sense that it is well defined and contains no random parameters. Examples of such systems include the atmosphere, the solar system, plate tectonics, turbulent fluids, economics, and population growth.
Systems that exhibit mathematical chaos are deterministic and thus orderly in some sense; this technical use of the word chaos is at odds with common parlance, which suggests complete disorder. (See the article on mythological chaos for a discussion of the origin of the word in mythology, and other uses.) A related field of physics called quantum chaos theory studies non-deterministic systems that follow the laws of quantum mechanics.
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or y nobody believe Masaru Emoto's discovery. our thoughts are also like finger prints/dna data/pupil of the eye/snow flakes...ie very different.
http://www.thank-water.net/english/index.htm
Effects of our consciousness on water
Our consciousness definitely influences upon water. Especially when we concentrate our consciousness with the same intention, it will have a tremendous power. It is like a laser beam that can reach the surface of the moon.
In the summer of 1999, hundreds of people gathered along the lakeshore of the Lake Biwa, located at the central part of Japan, and prayed for the peace and harmony of universe. After one month, a local newspaper reported that only that summer, there were no complaints from local residents about the foul odor resulting from extraordinary growth of a foreign alga, which they had been experiencing every summer for years.
Such is the power of human consciousness.
Consciousness of each of us changes the world
Consciousness of each of us creates our world, which means we can change the world. When the Earth is filled with the vibration of Love and Thanks, then you will experience a world filled with Love and Thanks.
when the mind is pure, the land is pure.
fengshui master also said, fu ren ju fu di (virtues person live in a virtues location). when MCK when to Australia, the hole in the ozone layer there also shift place!
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Hmm can explain?Originally posted by Thusness:No. -
Hi Longchen,
While meditating, something came to my mind and I think it is necessary to just drop by to jot down some points to note when a practitioner is moving from an 'AMness' experience to the experience of No-Self. As the experience becomes more subtle, it gets more challenging to detail out the fine differences in terms of one's experience. I might not be the correct person to comment anything but just for the purpose of sharing.
The experience of the mirror bright flow is not an exchange between the divine and symbolic realm; not a divine play between the divine and symbols. For in this realm, thought already exists. The experience of no-self as the flux is taking place in a space without symbols. It is like widening the gap between 2 moments of thought and experiencing the moment to moment of transformation in this bardo gap. Here the practitioner moves into Presence forgetting Presence. When smell arises, there is no symbol at all. The odour is the experience of the air, nose, flower... It is the entire interaction, entire flow, entire 'sense', it is one whole unfathomable experience. It is not understanding the impermanence, not understanding interaction, it is the interaction, the impermanence itself telling what it is. This is the direct experience of anatta but due to defilement, it can still be mistaken as the Big Self. However when correctly understood it is also the experience that provides a practitioner the condition to understand the profound meaning of Emptiness before experiencing the Dharmakaya. -
Tonight IRC.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Hmm can explain?