Is God A Thing?
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What then are the implications that the conditions that causes the arising of the objects are inherently empty?
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Originally posted by Isis:
indeed.
in other words, it is clinging to 'no-to-cling '... it is still an act of clinging...
am i right?
So neither yes non no is meaningless unless you realise the non existence of the conditions that causes the arising.
So neither yes non no is meaningless unless you realise the true emptiness of the conditions that causes the arising AND the true existence of the conditions that causes the arising .
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
At which point does the inherently empty building blocks and inherently empty conditions become inherently existing?
So neither yes non no is meaningless unless you realise the [b]true emptiness of the conditions that causes the arising AND the true existence of the conditions that causes the arising .
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Originally posted by casino_king:
i first check the meaning first:
What then are the implications that the conditions that causes the arising of the objects are inherently empty?[
inherently - involved in the constitution or essential character of something : belonging by nature or habit...ok.
i can think of 2 factors that implicate sunyata(emptiness).
1) alway changing.
2) made of conditions (conditions in itself also have conditions).
so does "the conditions that causes the arising of the objects" changes and are also made up of other conditions. yes, hence it's inherently "empty".
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Originally posted by casino_king:At which point does the inherently empty building blocks and inherently empty conditions become inherently existing?
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the wave is the building blocks of ocean. they both exist together. w/o wave, there's no ocean. w/o ocean there's no wave.
it's some what like Quantum Metaphysics .HOLON PRINCIPLES
http://www.quantum-metaphysics.com/essay.htm#THE%20KEY%20CONCEPTS
HP1. *The whole has more dimensions than each of its constituent parts.*
HP2. *Each part is an aspect of the whole, seen from a lower order.*
HP3. *The whole encompasses all its parts.*
HP4. *The whole is invisible from the orders of its parts.*
HP5. *The whole is an undivided and homogeneous entity, while its parts appear as separate individual entities in their order.*
HP6. *The whole and its parts are one and the same, viewed from different dimensional orders.*
HP7. *Both the whole and its parts are real, but the whole has a more profound reality.*
HP8. *The parts are wholes in their own right at a lower order.*
HP9. *The whole is immanent in each of its parts.*
HP10. *A change of any part goes simultaneously with a change of the whole, and a change of the whole goes with changes in its parts.*
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heads and tail... is the coin head or tail? Are there Waves and Ocean?
Is there inherent emptiness without inherent existence? -
depend on which dimensional order one perceive at.
r u trying to return to nothingness?
inherent emptiness is not all don't have or nothingness. to have an idea of all don't have is cult follower; not Buddhadharma.
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fyi:
THREE UNIVERSAL CHARACTERISTICS
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A characteristic is a fact which tells us something about the nature of a things. If a fact is sometimes connected with a things and sometimes not, then it is not a characteristic and will not help us very much to understand the nature of that thing.
Heat, for example, is a fact. Heat is not characteristic of water, as water is not always hot. the heat of water depends upon other factors like sun or an electric stove. But heat is a characteristic of fire because fire is always hot and heat of fire does not depend on any other factors. Heat is always connected with fire and tells us something about the nature of fire.
When the Buddha taught that there are three characteristics of facts of existence. They are generally found in all that exists and so they can tell us something about the nature of existence.
The three characteristics of existence taught by the Buddha are impermanence , suffering and impersonality.
ref:
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/5215/uc.html
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samsara and nivarda. both sides of the same coin. recognising inherent existence is nirvarda and both are sides of the same coin.Originally posted by sinweiy:depend on which dimensional order one perceive at.
r u trying to return to nothingness?
inherent emptiness is not all don't have or nothingness. to have an idea of all don't have is cult follower; not Buddhadharma.
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now we go back to page 2: 22 June 2006 · 07:03 PM
Existing or not existing? Inherently empty or inherently existing?Originally posted by casino_king:"Correct, not enough. I am not in existence is also not enough. Who is Buddha? The Buddha who is passed away from earth?" -
if there's a fixed answer, it aint Dharma already. how?
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Verse Twenty One
How is the Holy Dharma understood?
So to conclude:
There is no origination;
there is no destruction.
The path of origination and destruction has however been expounded by the Buddhas for a practical purpose:
(No absolute dependent origination, but still it is not completely non-existent, or useless: There is no absolute origination and cessation; but those are used as adapted skillful means depending on the situation. The teachings of dependent origination, of karma, Â… are necessary for beginners.)
Verse Twenty Two
By knowing origination, destruction is known;
by knowing destruction, impermanence is known;
by knowing impermanence the Holy Dharma is understood. [4]
(The path is composed of gradual adapted skillful means. The teachings of the Wheel of Life, of dependent origination, lead to the realization of impermanence, which will lead to the realization of the emptiness of everything, and to non-duality.)
But the perfection of the understanding of dependent origination leads to its inseparability with emptiness
The Wheel of Dependent Origination refers to the 12 Links of Dependant Origination. It means each element of the 12 Link of Dependant Origination is also empty of existenece/non-existence/etc.
What "elements of the Wheel of Dependent Origination" is empty? At which point does "emptiness doctrine" ends?
The twelve links are as follows:
* Dependent on ignorance (avijj±), reactions (saªkh±r±) arise,
* Dependent on reactions, consciousness (viññ±ºa) arises,
* Dependent on consciousness, mind and body (n±ma-r³pa) arise,
* Dependent on mind and body, the six sense doors (sa¼±yatana) arise,
* Dependent on the six sense doors, contact (phassa) arises,
* Dependent on contact, sensation (vedan±) arises,
* Dependent on sensation, craving (taºh±) arises,
* Dependent on craving, clinging (up±d±na) arises,
* Dependent on clinging, becoming (bhava) arises,
* Dependent on becoming, birth (j±ti) arises,
* Dependent on birth, decay and death (jar±, maraºa) arise -
The table is Dependant Co-arising/Conditioned Arising, empty of inherent existence/nonexistence/neither/both.Originally posted by casino_king:Is the wood that the table is born/made of; existing or non existing?
Existence and non existence is relative, that is to say, you have to grasp on a concept of 'table' to know its existence or nonexistence.
"Table" is just a label, in reality there is no essence/inherent existence anywhere to be called a 'thing', only dependant co-arising, therefore non-arising and non-cessation (of existence into non-existence), therefore empty of inherent existence. All is consciousness with the emptiness nature. The key is Spontaneity, Naturalness and Self-Arising. It takes place by itself.
Also usually when we analysis, our mind automatically splits time into past present future.
Buddha says: Subhuti, it is impossible to retain past mind, impossible to hold on to present mind, and impossible to grasp future mind for in none of its activities does the mind have substance or existence.Originally posted by Thusness:Yes, there is no 'something' coming into being and undergoing disintegration. When the mind attempts to understand the phenomenon existence through our current mode of knowing that works through comparison and measurement, the conclusion we derived seems paradoxical. When we choose to see the 'arising', the thinking mind cannot see the cessation. Neither 'arising' nor 'cessation' 'is before nor after the other. The sequence is caused by the mind. By choosing one, it has to give up the other. The thinking mind needs a base and the base becomes an 'entity', a ''something'. That 'something', that 'entity' is required due to the poverty of our thinking mechanism, it is not the true face of reality. A lighting flash of moment exhibits the entirety of the Dharma seals and it is only in Buddhism that is pointed out. Not only that, Buddha also taught us the systematic way of developing the intuitive insight into reality.
Past is 'present' memories, present is ungraspable obviously, future, just a mental concept or expectation. Empty.Everything we call "the past" is, literally, nothing but present memories. Likewise, everything we call "the future" is nothing but present memories inverted, or rearranged, to form a prediction or expectation. The appearance of "time" is little more than a trick of memory, as the Avatamsaka Sutra (Flower Ornament Scripture) says. You can easily discern this for yourself: simply figure out what it is you consider "the past" and "the future." You will discover that it is nothing but thoughts--nothing but memories, nothing but expectations, nothing but mental commentary. It's "all in your head," so to speak. There's really no such thing as time. There is really only Now--an eternally present Present with no beginning and no ending. Everything is completely new, distinct, and original every instant, with no real "change" or "motion" at all. The mystic-philosopher Heraclitus, explaining this point, said, "A man cannot step in the same river twice."
http://www.buddhistinformation.com/buddhism_and_the_illusion_of_time.htm
Now we all know that our body's cells are all totally renewed after 7 years, there is not a part of your body cell that remains the same after 7 years. Are you still the same existence after 7 years or are you a different person? Neither the same existence nor a different existence, bcos empty of inherent existence. There is really only Now--an eternally present Present with no beginning and no ending. ~ Everything is completely new, distinct, and original every instant, with no real "change" or "motion" at all. -
The doctrine of "Dependant Origination" is for what purpose? Is the purpose of teaching "Dependant Origination" to prove Emptiness?
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Verse Twenty Five
Those who understand things see that things are impermanent, fraudulent, vain, empty, selfless, and void.
Verse Twenty Six
Homeless, non-objective, rootless, unfixed, arising wholly through ignorance, without a beginning, middle or end; [5] -
It shows what is seemingly solid with inherent existence to be empty of inherent existence but dependant co-arising.Originally posted by casino_king:The doctrine of "Dependant Origination" is for what purpose? Is the purpose of teaching "Dependant Origination" to prove Emptiness? -
http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=129929
The metaphor of Indra's Jeweled Net is attributed to an ancient Buddhist named Tu-Shun (557-640 B.C.E.) who asks us to envision a vast net that:
* at each juncture there lies a jewel;
* each jewel reflects all the other jewels in this cosmic matrix.
* Every jewel represents an individual life form, atom, cell or unit of consciousness.
* Each jewel, in turn, is intrinsically and intimately connected to all the others;
* thus, a change in one gem is reflected in all the others.
This last aspect of the jeweled net is explored in a question/answer dialog of teacher and student in the Avatamsaka Sutra. In answer to the question: "how can all these jewels be considered one jewel?" it is replied: "If you don't believe that one jewel...is all the jewels...just put a dot on the jewel [in question]. When one jewel is dotted, there are dots on all the jewels...Since there are dots on all the jewels...We know that all the jewels are one jewel" ...".
The moral of Indra's net is that the compassionate and the constructive interventions a person makes or does can produce a ripple effect of beneficial action that will reverberate throughout the universe or until it plays out. By the same token you cannot damage one strand of the web without damaging the others or setting off a cascade effect of destruction.
Source: Awakening 101
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...One of the images used to illustrate the nature of reality as understood in Mahayana is The Jewel Net of Indra. According to this image, all reality is to be understood on analogy with Indra's Net. This net consists entirely of jewels. Each jewel reflects all of the other jewels, and the existence of each jewel is wholly dependent on its reflection in all of the other jewels. As such, all parts of reality are interdependent with each other, but even the most basic parts of existence have no independent existence themselves. As such, to the degree that reality takes form and appears to us, it is because the whole arises in an interdependent matrix of parts to whole and of subject to object. But in the end, there is nothing (literally no-thing) there to grasp....
Source: Sunyata ('Emptiness') -
Not only is the table inherently empty, the conditions, the wood, the people that made the table are all empty.
All the verses you quote are still talking about Inherent Emptiness... we have moved on from Inherent Emptiness.
MOVE ON MOVE ON.... -
The key is Spontaneity, Naturalness and Self-ArisingOriginally posted by casino_king:Not only is the table inherently empty, the conditions, the wood, the people that made the table are all empty.
All the verses you quote are still talking about Inherent Emptiness... we have moved on from Inherent Emptiness.
MOVE ON MOVE ON.... -
How can something that is inherently non existing "self arise?"Originally posted by An Eternal Now:The key is Spontaneity, Naturalness and Self-Arising -
Dont fall into into any concepts of inherent existence and read my updated postings.. hope u can understand. i gtg now cyaOriginally posted by casino_king:How can something that is inherently non existing "self arise?" -
This is a cop out... to progress you must go further and further until you come to the end... even at the end, you realise and not "know."Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Dont fall into into any concepts of inherent existence and read my updated postings.. hope u can understand. i gtg now cya -
What are you talking about? I am simply saying, I am busy now, I got to go and logging off.Originally posted by casino_king:This is a cop out... to progress you must go further and further until you come to the end... even at the end, you realise and not "know." -
The part about "Don't fall into into any concepts of inherent existence" is a cop out...Originally posted by An Eternal Now:What are you talking about? I am simply saying, I am busy now, I got to go and logging off. -
Quoted: (taking just one chunk out of the whole thing )Originally posted by casino_king:heads and tail... is the coin head or tail? Are there Waves and Ocean?
Is there inherent emptiness without inherent existence?
The concept of Universal oneness-- that things in their essential nature have no distinguishing marks-- is called " Sunyata". Sunyata means non substantiality, the un-born, having no self nature, no duality. It is because things in themselves have no form or characteristic that we can speak of them as neither born nor being destroyed. There is nothing about the essential nature of things that can be described in terms of discrimination; that is why things we called non-substantiable. As pointed out, All things appear & disappear because of causes and conditions. Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everythings is in relation to everything else. Whenever there is light, there is shadow. Whenever, there is lengthy, there is shortness. Whenever there is head, there is tail of the coin. Just like these as the self nature of things cannot exist alone, they are called non-substantial. By the same reasoning, Enlightenment cannot exist apart from ignorance, nor ignorance apart from enlightenment. Since things do not differ in their essential reality, there can be no duality.
People cherish the distinction of purity and impurity, but in the nature of things, there is no such distinction, except as it raises from false and absurb imagines in their mind. In like manner, people make distinction between the good and evil, but good and evil does not exist separately. Those who are following the path to enlightenment recognize no such duality, and it leads them to neither praise the good and condemn the evil, nor depise the good and condone evil.People naturally fear misfortune and long for good fortune; but if the distinction are to studied carefully, misfortune often turns out to be good fortune and good fortune to be misfortune. The wiseman learns to meet the changing cirumstances of life with an equitable spirit, being either elated by success nor depressed by failure. Thus one realise the truth of non-duality.
Therefore, all words that express relations of duality such as existence and non-existence, good and evil; purity and impurity- none of these terms are of contrast in one thinkings are expressed or recongized in their true nature. When people keep free from such terms and emotion engendered by them, they realise Sunyata'S universal truth............
http://www.gotaro3.homestead.com/DalaiLama26.html