What is REAL? (spinoff)
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We came to the end of NargarjunaÂ’s Sixty Verses of Arguments (spinoff)
Which was it self a spinoff from Is God A Thing?
Basically we have come to see that the 60 verses was referring to Samsara when it talks of EMPTINESS
Verse 2 : The real nature of the duality samsara vs. Nirvana The duality being vs. non-being
Verse 3 : Liberation is gained by transcending this duality
Verse 4 : Liberation is gained by seeing through this duality
Verse 5 : Those who do not see reality believe in samsara and nirvana, but those who see reality believe in neither.
So we see that SAMSARA is not "real;" it is empty.
If I say that the animal is not an animal, then what is it?
If we say that SAMSARA is not "real;" then what is.
So if you want to post in this topic, then read the two other topics first and get a real feel of what the issues are.
Muslims and Christians and Taoists and Hindus and even Atheists and so on have their own interpretation of what is REAL.
I would like this topic to be a discussion of what Buddhism considers REAL. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
So you are saying that Buddhism only says this universe is not real (inherently empty) but does not say what is real?Originally posted by sinweiy:
actually i was trying to say my range of answer is too wide to fix. while u play reduction (wu wei) so as to pin point an answer, i play expansion (you wei) so as to infinitum the answer.
in the Mind-Only School (Yogacara), there are 94 you wei(have origination and destruction) and 6 wu wei (no origination or destruction). not sure the exact translation for the 6 wu wei though.
real or not, eventually it is upto mind only,( hence i, you , them.)
http://www.bfnn.org/bookgb/books3/2092.htm
1 person argue, it is the flag that move, another person argue it's the wind that make it move. wat late Master Hui Neng say?
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
quote:
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Originally posted by casino_king:
Can anybody be carefree if he does not know reality?
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quote:Originally posted by sinweiy:
i can say yes, with a set of reasoning;
and i can say no, with another set of reasoning.
can u?
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a folly who do not know, cannot, but the wise can.
as to the wise, to know reality is Not to know reality.
so is the anybody a folly or a wise?
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Amituofo!
"Enlightenment is to turn around and see MY own mistake, Other's mistake is also my mistake. Others are right even if they are wrong. i'm wrong even if i'm right. " - Master Chin Kung
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[/b] -
to say : "to know reality is Not to know reality" is simply say that you do not know what is REAL?
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Originally posted by casino_king:
do not know what is REAL or unreal is still folly.
to say : [b]"to know reality is Not to know reality" is simply say that you do not know what is REAL?[/b]
the wise is more profound than simply "Not to know reality".
As the expression goes, ignorance(aka not knowing) no doubt might be the overall condition of beings, but it is also through 'Not wanting to know' (stilling the mind) that Springs All Knowing of Buddha(s).
Stilling the water make the base and the reflection of everything clear.
Not knowing and enlightenment complement each other.
See if Shurangama Sutra state of the emptiness of Conditioning itself?
The Buddha said to �nanda, "From beginning less time onward, all living beings and in all kinds of upside down ways, have created seeds of karma which naturally run their course, like the aksha cluster.
"The reason that cultivators cannot accomplish unsurpassed Bodhi, but instead reach the level of Hearers or of those enlightened to conditions, or become accomplished in externalist ways as heaven-dwellers or as demon kings or as members of the demonsÂ’ retinues
is that they do not know the two fundamental roots and so are mistaken and confused in their cultivation. They are like one who cooks sand in the hope of creating savory delicacies. They may do so for as many eons as there are motes of dust, but in the end they will not obtain what they want.
"What are the two? �nanda, the first is the root of beginning less birth and death, which is the mind that seizes upon conditions and that you and all living beings now make use of, taking it to be your own nature.
"The second is the primal pure substance of beginning less Bodhi Nirvana. It is the primal bright essence of consciousness that can bring forth all conditions. Due to these conditions, you consider it to be lost.
"Having lost sight of that original brightness, although beings use it to the end of their days, they are unaware of it, and unintentionally enter the various destinies.
"�nanda, now you wish to know about the path of shamatha with the hope of quitting birth and death. I will now question you further."......
"All of you good people, I have often said that all conditions that bring about forms and the mind as well as dharmas pertaining to the mind and all the conditioned dharmas are manifestations of the mind only. Your bodies and your minds all appear within the wonder of the bright, true, essential, magnificent mind.
http://www.buddhistinformation.com/shurangama_sutra.htm
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casino-king is moving into very dangerous ground.
believing his conceptualisation to be realisations. THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS FOR YOU, C_KING!!! YOU WILL GET YOUR STUCK INTO DELUSIONS.
Let it be known that thinking that one is realised and yet getting deluded in egoistic mindset is very dangerous... moreso after the death too.
The death process will determine whose deluded and whose not. The deluded that beliefed that he is realised can get stuck into deluded realms.
All the best. I pray for you.
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from my archive:
In the Wei Shi Consciousness-only School, each of our eight consciousnesses is also classified into Mutual-division (form)'xiang fen', Observing-division 'jian fen', Self-verifying-division 'zi zhen fen'(aka a confused Buddhanature) and Verifying Self-verifying-division (aka True Mind or Enlightened Buddha Nature). Manas Consciousness attach to a self, due to the "observing-division" of the Alaya Consciousness The Self-verifying-division and Verifying Self-verifying-division are mutually related. If the Self-verifying-division is an Object of Operation, the Verifying Self-verifying-division becomes the Operative. And vice versa. Existence actually does not hold a 'self', but due to a strong attachment of "self" in the deluded Manas Consciousness, it truly become a self and that of self-possessions/views. Alaya (8th) is the container of the lower 7, as all the karmic seeds of the lower 7 go back to the 8th. If we can realize that the root-self, instrumental world and karmic seeds are just projections of the Thus Come One, Tathagatagarbha, and that all phenomenon are like dream/delusions, and not self can attain, then all will return to Tathagatagarbha.
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Good analogy. When your pair of eyes see another set of eyes, you can only see the outside appearance of others' eyes and NOT what the other set of eyes can see. So on the perspective of your eyes, the other eyes is only the image of your eyes.
ref:
http://www.dharma.com.tw/X1Chinese/D33SProb/P494.htm
http://maitreya.sun.net.tw:6666/c07/3.htm
http://www.buddhanet.com.tw/gem/ggz-c2.htm
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You have no idea what you are talking about so I think that it is best that you pray for yourself.Originally posted by dreamer24:casino-king is moving into very dangerous ground.
believing his conceptualisation to be realisations. THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS FOR YOU, C_KING!!! YOU WILL GET YOUR STUCK INTO DELUSIONS.
Let it be known that thinking that one is realised and yet getting deluded in egoistic mindset is very dangerous... moreso after the death too.
The death process will determine whose deluded and whose not. The deluded that beliefed that he is realised can get stuck into deluded realms.
All the best. I pray for you. -
great insight! thanks for the great post.Originally posted by sinweiy:from my archive:
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Good analogy. When your pair of eyes see another set of eyes, you can only see the outside appearance of others' eyes and NOT what the other set of eyes can see. So on the perspective of your eyes, the other eyes is only the image of your eyes.
ref:
http://www.dharma.com.tw/X1Chinese/D33SProb/P494.htm
http://maitreya.sun.net.tw:6666/c07/3.htm
http://www.buddhanet.com.tw/gem/ggz-c2.htm
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I would suggest that you have no idea what is REAL because you cannot describe at all what REAL is.Originally posted by sinweiy:do not know what is REAL or unreal is still folly.
the wise is more profound than simply "Not to know reality".
http://www.buddhistinformation.com/shurangama_sutra.htm
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Anyway if you cannot describe "REAL" at least show me how Buddhism describe the "REAL?" -
oh... i do know a bit about the afterlife.Originally posted by casino_king:You have no idea what you are talking about so I think that it is best that you pray for yourself.
the bardo and afterlife attracts onto oneself the destination of afterlife existence based on their remaining karmic habits, delusions and belief.
There are cases of monk who thought that they are enlightened and yet their consciosness is stuck into some limbo realm... -
if 'real' can be described... then upon reading it, everybody will be awakened loh...Originally posted by casino_king:I would suggest that you have no idea what is REAL because you cannot describe at all what REAL is.
Anyway if you cannot describe "REAL" at least show me how Buddhism describe the "REAL?"
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You do not know what you are talking about so please just keep your comments to yourself.Originally posted by dreamer24:oh... i do know a bit about the afterlife.
the bardo and afterlife attracts onto oneself the destination of afterlife existence based on their remaining karmic habits, delusions and belief.
There are cases of monk who thought that they are enlightened and yet their consciosness is stuck into some limbo realm... -
How would you know that upon reading everybody will be awakened? You have no understanding so just keep your comments to yourself.Originally posted by dreamer24:if 'real' can be described... then upon reading it, everybody will be awakened loh... -
Casino_King,
Can you know what God is? -
According to whom? The big 3 think of God as Spirit.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Casino_King,
Can you know what God is?
So, according to Buddhist teaching, what is REAL? -
Big 3 = Christianity, Islam, Hinduism?Originally posted by casino_king:According to whom? The big 3 think of God as Spirit.
So, according to Buddhist teaching, what is REAL?
Which means Buddhism = Small 4? -
You seem only interested in avoiding difficult questions... if you cannot answer then just say so...Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Big 3 = Christianity, Islam, Hinduism?
Which means Buddhism = Small 4? -
I did not join in the discussion to answer your question.Originally posted by casino_king:You seem only interested in avoiding difficult questions... if you cannot answer then just say so...
I came to ask something and guide you to find out for yourself. -
According to the big 3, God is spirit and in their scriptures, you have many desciptions of encounters with God.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I did not join in the discussion to answer your question.
I came to ask something.
The totality of these encounters do not make up God but it does show that God interacts with people. While nobody knows what God is (what is Spirit?) people do have a glimpse of God.
So what is REAL as taught by Buddhism?
Maybe this question is too difficult for the Buddhists here to answer as the "What is Empty?" question had shown.
I do hope that as Buddhists you will discover the answer. -
Because you are contained within your own experience of spirit, I am unable to discuss with you, unless you do 3 things:Originally posted by casino_king:According to the big 3, God is spirit and in their scriptures, you have many desciptions of encounters with God.
The totality of these encounters do not make up God but it does show that God interacts with people. While nobody knows what God is (what is Spirit?) people do have a glimpse of God.
So what is REAL as taught by Buddhism?
Maybe this question is too difficult for the Buddhists here to answer as the "What is Empty?" question had shown.
I do hope that as Buddhists you will discover the answer.
1) Are you able to forgot whatever is being discussed, not even a trace in ur mind, and go back to what that is born spiritually?
2) Seriously look into the link that Longchen posted. Interesting site about stages of progress
3) Most important of all, you must be sincere and stop useless pretense.
Only a geniune heart can attract geniune answers.
If people sense your sincerity, there will definitely be contributors. Even there is no consensus, there will be true gain. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
If you do not know the answer or Buddhism does not have the answer than simply say so. I asked you a simple question and that is, what is REAL in Buddhism? Those who have touched reality, what did they say? Nobody had touched reality? Nobody knows? Nobody can say anything about it? Nobody can describe their experience?
Because you are contained within your own experience of spirit, I am unable to discuss with you, unless you do 3 things:
[b]1) Are you able to forgot whatever is being discussed, not even a trace in ur mind, and go back to what that is born spiritually?
2) Seriously look into the link that Longchen posted. Interesting site about stages of progress
3) Most important of all, you must be sincere and stop useless pretense.[/b] -
You said before - ask, don't tell.Originally posted by casino_king:If you do not know the answer or Buddhism does not have the answer than simply say so. I asked you a simple question and that is, what is REAL in Buddhism? Those who have touched reality, what did they say? Nobody had touched reality? Nobody knows? Nobody can say anything about it? Nobody can describe their experience? -
Then answer the questions. Simple.Originally posted by casino_king:If you do not know the answer or Buddhism does not have the answer than simply say so. I asked you a simple question and that is, what is REAL in Buddhism? Those who have touched reality, what did they say? Nobody had touched reality? Nobody knows? Nobody can say anything about it? Nobody can describe their experience? -
Originally posted by casino_king:Then answer the questions. Simple.
I think you blur liao. See my previous post.