What is REAL? (spinoff)
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How does one then transcend the duality of Samsara and Nirvana if there is no inherent existence? 60 verses, verse 3Originally posted by An Eternal Now:When we say 'Empty', it does not mean that phenomenal world is empty and there is an opposite, an inherently existence essence that is not affected by the phenomenal world, some sort of 'Amness' that is inherently existent. Or Spirit. Or Mind. Even that is Empty by nature. That is why Thusness says, those who have certain experiences of 'Amness' have even greater difficulty to comprehend Emptiness because of a subtle attachment to their experience as truly inherently existent. We talk about 'Buddha Nature' as 'Luminosity and Emptiness inseperable'. So even Buddha Nature is empty by nature. ALL is Buddha Nature, all is Empty and Luminous.
This is what sets Buddhism different compared to other contemplative traditions.
Verse Three
Liberation is gained by transcending this duality
(Why suddenly you became mindful of what the issue is?
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GTG
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I did not suddenly become mindful, I just joined in the discussion today.Originally posted by casino_king:How does one then transcend the duality of Samsara and Nirvana if there is no inherent existence? 60 verses, verse 3
Verse Three
Liberation is gained by transcending this duality
(Why suddenly you became mindful of what the issue is? )
And to start with, I need to share some basic concepts with you and remind you of certain fundamentals again.
As to your current question, it is precisely because there is no inherent existence therefore one can transcend the duality of Samsara and Nirvana. Duality implies inherent existence.
I know what you are going to say next/soon... and the discussion will be interesting. -
How does one transcend samsara?
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Seeing - as Steve Hagen puts it.Originally posted by casino_king:How does one transcend samsara? -
tran·scend (trăn-sĕnd') pronunciationOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:Seeing - as Steve Hagen puts it.
v., -scend·ed, -scend·ing, -scends.
v.tr.
1. To pass beyond the limits of: emotions that transcend understanding.
2. To be greater than, as in intensity or power; surpass: love that transcends infatuation. See synonyms at excel.
3. To exist above and independent of (material experience or the universe): “One never can see the thing in itself, because the mind does not transcend phenomena” (Hilaire Belloc).
Can mere seeing be "transcend?" -
What do u understand from steve hagan's 'seeing'?
Sincerely know it in actual practice. A mind that is pre-occupied cannot see.
See it in actual practice, the 'transcend' is not in 'what'.
See it for yourself.. you are trapped in your questioning. Understand yourself what Steve Hagen meant by seeing and do not pretend that you understand, that doesn't help. -
It is pointless to argue about the meaning of words. 60 verses say transcend. It did not say "seeing."Originally posted by An Eternal Now:What do u understand from steve hagan's 'seeing'?
Sincerely know it in actual practice. A mind that is pre-occupied cannot see.
See it in actual practice, the 'transcend' is not in 'what'.
See it for yourself.. you are trapped in your questioning. Understand yourself what Steve Hagen meant by seeing and do not pretend that you understand, that doesn't help... that is all I can do to help.
Transcend as provided for in the definitions is:
3. To exist above and independent of (material experience or the universe): “One never can see the thing in itself, because the mind does not transcend phenomena” (Hilaire Belloc).
The definition is very clear. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
it's only half right.
Transcend as provided for in the definitions is:
3. To exist above and independent of (material experience or the universe): “One never can see the thing in itself, because the mind does not transcend phenomena” (Hilaire Belloc).
The definition is very clear.
Hilaire Belloc is just a writer that i found, not an enlightened being.
transcendence is more than mere transcending phenomena. even to transcend both phenomena and noumenon is still astray.
"To exist above and independent of " still is siding one side of the coin, which is illustrated in my Diag B, thinking the enlighten side or nirvana or transcendence is 'independent" of samsara.
hint: it's not mere words can explain. everytime u try to explain or think, it' astray..other word it's 'non-wandering thoughts'.
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It is very difficult when you pop up and then AEN pops up... then you pop up... haiz...Originally posted by sinweiy:it's only half right.
Hilaire Belloc is just a writer that i found, not an enlightened being.
transcendence is more than mere transcending phenomena. even to transcend both phenomena and noumenon is still astray.
"To exist above and independent of " still is siding one side of the coin, which is illustrated in my Diag B, thinking the enlighten side or nirvana or transcendence is 'independent" of samsara.
hint: it's not mere words can explain. everytime u try to explain or think, it' astray..other word it's 'non-wandering thoughts'.
/\
You understand something but AEN does not understand something and AEN understands something but you do not understand something...
Verse Three
Liberation is gained by transcending this duality
How do you transcend this duality?
Hint: you are inherently empty, your existence is conditional... -
as i 'hinted' already.
How do you transcend this duality?
btw:
i think this word "inherently existent" is misuse. ppl can easily conceptualize
it to be conventional existence which is missing the mark.
'inherently' is sort of like 'ben lai' or intrinsic or originally. we only use ban wu or inherently empty. seldom we use ben you(inherently existent ).
Yogacara mean zhen ru ben xing...like Dharmakaya/Buddhanature/Primordial mind, rather than the conventional mind.
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What is zhen ru ben xing? What is "Dharmakaya/Buddhanature/Primordial mind?"Originally posted by sinweiy:as i 'hinted' already.
btw:
i think this word "inherently existent" is misuse. ppl can easily conceptualize
it to be conventional existence which is missing the mark.
'inherently' is sort of like 'ben lai' or intrinsic or originally. we only use ban wu or inherently empty. seldom we use ben you(inherently existent ).
Yogacara mean zhen ru ben xing...like Dharmakaya/Buddhanature/Primordial mind, rather than the conventional mind.
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Is "zhen ru ben xing, Dharmakaya/Buddhanature/Primordial mind" inherently empty?
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what is ming2 xin1 jian4 xing4
understand mind means seeing Consciousness
seeing nature means seeing emptiness nature
zhen ru is Thusness
luminosity and emptiness becomes one thusness flow
Buddhism Plain and Simple page 115:With the two types of views there are two kinds of minds. As human beings, we all have what we could call ordinary minds - the mind that you've always assumed you've had. It's a calculating mind, a discriminating mind, a fragmented mind. It's the mind of ordinary consciousness, the mind of self and other. We generally think of it as "my mind."
But there's another mind that is unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned. Unlike "your mind," it is unbound, for there is nothing beyond it. To this Mind, there is no "other mind."
This Mind is nothing other than the Whole. It's simply thus, the fabric of the world itself - the ongoing arising and falling away that are matter, energy and events.
Speaking of this Mind, the great Chinese Zen master Huang Po said,
All buddhas and ordinary people are just One Mind... This Mind is beyond all measurements, names, oppositions: this very being is It; as soon as you stir your mind you turn away from It.
This Mind is self-evident - it's always switched on, so to speak. We can - and, in fact, we do - see It in every moment. If we would refrain from stirring our minds (rest our frontal lobes, as my Zen teacher used to say) and let our conceptualising die down, like the ripples on a pond after the stirring wind has ceased, we would realise - we would know Mind directly. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:what is ming2 xin1 jian4 xing4
understand mind means seeing Consciousness
seeing nature means seeing emptiness nature
zhen ru is Thusness
luminosity and emptiness becomes one thusness flow
Buddhism Plain and Simple page 115:
quote:
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With the two types of views there are two kinds of minds. As human beings, we all have what we could call ordinary minds - the mind that you've always assumed you've had. It's a calculating mind, a discriminating mind, a fragmented mind. It's the mind of ordinary consciousness, the mind of self and other. We generally think of it as "my mind."
But there's another mind that is unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned. Unlike "your mind," it is unbound, for there is nothing beyond it. To this Mind, there is no "other mind."
This Mind is nothing other than the Whole. It's simply thus, the fabric of the world itself - the ongoing arising and falling away that are matter, energy and events.
Speaking of this Mind, the great Chinese Zen master Huang Po said,
All buddhas and ordinary people are just One Mind... This Mind is beyond all measurements, names, oppositions: this very being is It; as soon as you stir your mind you turn away from It.
This Mind is self-evident - it's always switched on, so to speak. We can - and, in fact, we do - see It in every moment. If we would refrain from stirring our minds (rest our frontal lobes, as my Zen teacher used to say) and let our conceptualising die down, like the ripples on a pond after the stirring wind has ceased, we would realise - we would know Mind directly.
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Buddhism Plain and Simple
By Steve Hagen
oso available in all libraries
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Those who are conscious of the MIND; those whose MIND are awaken; what did they say about it?
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And why do you assume what was being said is not said by people 'conscious of MIND'?Originally posted by casino_king:Those who are conscious of the MIND; those whose MIND are awaken; what did they say about it? -
Because the information you have provided so far is totally inadequate information? Awaken this MIND for what? How does awakening this MIND relate to the liberation of the duality of samsara and nirvana? Is the MIND eternal or also inherently empty and arisen conditionally?
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Originally posted by casino_king:Because the information you have provided so far is totally inadequate information? Awaken this MIND for what? How does awakening this MIND relate to the liberation of the duality of samsara and nirvana? Is the MIND eternal or also inherently empty and arisen conditionally?
An unawakened mind will always find it inadequate.... it will always seek more and more conceptual answers and will forever miss the essence.
If you notice my postings are not meant to really provide you with answers.
All buddhas and ordinary people are just One Mind... This Mind is beyond all measurements, names, oppositions: this very being is It; as soon as you stir your mind you turn away from It.
Liberation is instantaneous, timeless, there is really no 'how' and 'why'. Mind IS beyond duality. Eternal falls into realism, nothingness false into nihilism, as long as you get stuck in a fragmented conceptual viewpoint you will never be WHOLE, which is Mind.
p.s there are more enlightened people than u know -
see... i always advise u to go step by step now u see what kind of 'hay-wire' state ur learning process has gone toOriginally posted by casino_king:Because the information you have provided so far is totally inadequate information? Awaken this MIND for what? How does awakening this MIND relate to the liberation of the duality of samsara and nirvana? Is the MIND eternal or also inherently empty and arisen conditionally? -
yes AEN as casino king does not have a good foundation of basic knowledge yet i think it is unwise for u continue wf this.Pls advise him to go 'step by step'.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
An unawakened mind will always find it inadequate.... it will always seek more and more conceptual answers and will forever miss the essence.
I shall not provide you any more answers. -
Sometimes what he really needs is to quiet his mind and see for himself.Originally posted by neutral_onliner:yes AEN as casino king does not have a good foundation of basic knowledge yet i think it is unwise for u continue wf this.Pls advise him to go 'step by step'. 
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
This is so totally saying nothing. I can also say that all those who claimed to be enlightened are mistaken because it is up to the individual to imagine it for himself.
An unawakened mind will always find it inadequate.... it will always seek more and more conceptual answers and will forever miss the essence.
If you notice my postings are not meant to really provide you with answers.
All buddhas and ordinary people are just One Mind... This Mind is [b]beyond all measurements, names, oppositions: this very being is It; as soon as you stir your mind you turn away from It.
Liberation is instantaneous, timeless, there is really no 'how' and 'why'. Mind IS beyond duality. Eternal falls into realism, nothingness false into nihilism, as long as you get stuck in a fragmented conceptual viewpoint you will never be WHOLE, which is Mind.
p.s there are more enlightened people than u know[/b] -
What is zhen ru ben xing?
......
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*returns to silence*