What is REAL? (spinoff)
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What is zhen ru ben xing?
(the ch'an master just smile or just pick up a rock... and that's it.)
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[removed.... discuss in private]
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That is what I have been hinting all along, that at the end of Buddhism, is nothing.
Samsara is inherently empty; everything is conditionally arisen, nothing is real, nothing is eternal, you live your life, hope for the best and at the end of it, nothing.
No wonder people say that Buddhism is a sad religion.
But I must say that Buddhism has a very good way to explain the "flesh" part of the world. That which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit - Jesus. -
Void and Nothingness is NOT emptiness.Originally posted by casino_king:That is what I have been hinting all along, that at the end of Buddhism, is nothing.
Samsara is inherently empty; everything is conditionally arisen, nothing is real, nothing is eternal, you live your life, hope for the best and at the end of it, nothing.
No wonder people say that Buddhism is a sad religion.
But I must say that Buddhism has a very good way to explain the "flesh" part of the world. That which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit - Jesus. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Do not sit with a mind fixed on emptiness.
If you do, you will fall into a neutral kind of emptiness.
Emptiness includes the sun, moon, stars and planets,
The great earth, mountains and rivers,
All trees and grasses,
Bad people and good people,
Bad things and good things,
Heaven and hell;
They are all in the midst of emptiness.
- Hui-neng (638-713) -
Then why say MIND and not say SPIRIT? Why not say CONSCIOUSNESS? Why not say AWARENESS? Why not say NOTHING? VOID? EMPTINESS?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Void and Nothingness is NOT emptiness.
If people ask you what and you keep quiet; just smile or just pick up a rock... -
77 Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.Originally posted by casino_king:Then why say MIND and not say SPIRIT? Why not say CONSCIOUSNESS? Why not say AWARENESS? Why not say NOTHING? VOID? EMPTINESS?
If people ask you what and you keep quiet; just smile or just pick up a rock...
Split a piece of wood; I am there.
Lift up the stone, and you will find me there." -
I asked you to tell me what in Buddhism is REAL and you tell me that it cannot be explained.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:77 Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.
Split a piece of wood; I am there.
Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."
The Big 3 religions teaught that samsara proceeded from the mouth of God, the words of God and is inherently empty.
I also know from Big 3 teaching that God is REAL and SPIRIT is REAL but we are not discussing Big 3 teaching here are we? We are discussing Buddhism. -
Can you give your best description of what is Spirit before proceeding further. It is your experience... you must bring out that experience.Originally posted by casino_king:God is REAL and SPIRIT is REAL -
it is Truth, and Truth is everywhere, everymoment, everyone, everyhow, everywhy.
we not always use MIND. can say SPIRIT oso can (but some might think it's ghost), can say CONSCIOUSNESS also can, best one can say AWARENESS; some say NOTHING(but i do not prefer as due to nihilism/annihilationism). can say VOIDness(abt the same meaning as emptiness to me). can say EMPTINESS as we always do.
AEN and some mentioned the "Amness", 'Thusness'. it's layman term NATURAL.
why so many name? just don't want u to attached to one name.
why cannot be explain? as we want u to STILL the mind and sever attachment, discrimination/dualism...don't move your thoughts, and everything is "Thusness" or NATURAL. to the ppl without basic , the ch'an master cannot use similing or picking a rock...only to ppl with certain level of understanding, then can they taste the Dharma within.
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Do you know what "spirit" is? Do you know a person's "spirit" in relation to AMNESS or THUSNESS?
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AEN's sms:
Amness is somewat different from Thusness. Amness is consciousness experience but still a latent attachment to the experience as 'self'. Even that experience has different degrees. One might has only exprienced the consciousness is lifeforce within(a form of Amness, the ultimate centre) but there is not much aspect of clarity and does not experience it outside. It's the highest goal of hinduism(which is more).
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Thusness can be said to be luminosity and emptiness in thusness flow. -
Am I right in thinking that the following things are "empty" (devoid of permanent, inherent identity):
1. Body
2. Ego
3. Emotions
4. Thoughts/beliefs
and that there is only one real, permanent thing about us:
1. The mental continuum
I am a bit confused because what I mean by "mental continuum" (Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's term) is the thing that experiences rebirth, that bears our positive and negative karmic imprints. I think that maybe different Buddhist traditions call it different things (is it the same thing as "subtle mind"?) Not sure. Would be grateful if someone would explain the different names used for this thing. -
This is a really an interesting question. It is something that i will like to hear from others as well.Originally posted by la lapine blanche:Am I right in thinking that the following things are "empty" (devoid of permanent, inherent identity):
1. Body
2. Ego
3. Emotions
4. Thoughts/beliefs
and that there is only one real, permanent thing about us:
1. The mental continuum
I am a bit confused because what I mean by "mental continuum" (Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's term) is the thing that experiences rebirth, that bears our positive and negative karmic imprints. I think that maybe different Buddhist traditions call it different things (is it the same thing as "subtle mind"?) Not sure. Would be grateful if someone would explain the different names used for this thing.
from my understanding, ..
everything is in a constant state of change. Our thoughts, emotions, body are manifestation of essense(presence). However, presence and the manifestions are not 2 thing. They are the same thing, just in different states. The various states of consciousness are all different states of Presence.
The world that we perceive is an illusionary world(insubstantial) that is thought construct. Our 'sense of self' is also thought construct. The impression of a 'self' perceiving and interacting with the world and others is also a thought construct. However, this does not mean that others do not exist. Perhaps we can say that all that we percieve are various manifestion of Presence... your true 'self' so to speak.
I do not really understand 'emptiness'... but my take is that it is refering to the lack of object and solidity of reality. When we talk about objects we are defining something that is contained and with boundaries. Like a cup is the shape of a cup. However, in reality, boundary is a concept of the mind that say that this 'shape' is a cup. This is conceptual, in actuality the thinking mind defined this shape as cup. IMO, this conceptuality is also a though construct.
just my opinion. nothing definitive
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Nothing really wrong with your post, in fact its good... but just a slight note, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is not recognised in this forum and he is a controversial figure which is also not recognised by the Dalai Lama due to his continous practise worshipping dorje shugden, which is a worldly deity (although they think otherwise). Due to insulting Dalai Lama in the past, he got kicked out of Sera Monastery, and later formed the New Kadampa Tradition. _Wanderer_ has advised that we should be wary of NKT materials and books.Originally posted by la lapine blanche:Am I right in thinking that the following things are "empty" (devoid of permanent, inherent identity):
1. Body
2. Ego
3. Emotions
4. Thoughts/beliefs
and that there is only one real, permanent thing about us:
1. The mental continuum
I am a bit confused because what I mean by "mental continuum" (Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's term) is the thing that experiences rebirth, that bears our positive and negative karmic imprints. I think that maybe different Buddhist traditions call it different things (is it the same thing as "subtle mind"?) Not sure. Would be grateful if someone would explain the different names used for this thing. -
Just to add, if you are not careful, the path you are pursuing from here is a "dangerous" path and I would advise that you seek guidance from people you trust, face to face.Originally posted by la lapine blanche:Am I right in thinking that the following things are "empty" (devoid of permanent, inherent identity):
1. Body
2. Ego
3. Emotions
4. Thoughts/beliefs
and that there is only one real, permanent thing about us:
1. The mental continuum
I am a bit confused because what I mean by "mental continuum" (Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's term) is the thing that experiences rebirth, that bears our positive and negative karmic imprints. I think that maybe different Buddhist traditions call it different things (is it the same thing as "subtle mind"?) Not sure. Would be grateful if someone would explain the different names used for this thing.
Most of us here debating this know the dangers and since you say you are a novice... this is my advice for you.
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Anyway... You must be quite outstanding to come out such a conclusion after all the sutras and verses quoted. And surely Buddha doesn't need so many volumes of emptiness, conditionality, to leads us to Nihilism.. With all devas singing songs and all the supernatural arguments.... you can still come out such a conclusion that emptiness leads to nihiliims. IQ must be quite high...Originally posted by casino_king:That is what I have been hinting all along, that at the end of Buddhism, is nothing.
Samsara is inherently empty; everything is conditionally arisen, nothing is real, nothing is eternal, you live your life, hope for the best and at the end of it, nothing.
No wonder people say that Buddhism is a sad religion.
But I must say that Buddhism has a very good way to explain the "flesh" part of the world. That which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit - Jesus.
And still common believers still can pray to Buddha as one that is Greater than all devas gods...etc....isn't this something very exciting and extra-ordinary eh?
I think it takes more than blind faith to believe. -
Eternal Now,
Thank-you for the warning about the NKT. I realised about the issues with this group earlier in the year and stopped attending their meditation classes as a result. However, I have to say that although these issues may be sources of real concern, they did give me good, helpful meditation classes and advice for several years, and encourage me in the way of Buddhism. I have not had any bad experiences of them and I think they are genuinely practising the Dharma (although I will not be involved with them again because of my respect for the Dalai Lama).
Everyone,
Coming back to my question - is the "mental continuum" also known as "subtle mind" or is this something else? What is this "permanent thing" with the karmic imprints? -
this is wonderful quote, which i can connect to.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Do not sit with a mind fixed on emptiness.
If you do, you will fall into a neutral kind of emptiness.
Emptiness includes the sun, moon, stars and planets,
The great earth, mountains and rivers,
All trees and grasses,
Bad people and good people,
Bad things and good things,
Heaven and hell;
They are all in the midst of emptiness.
- Hui-neng (638-713)
ps: again would like to stress that we only say the inside is empty (ie self-nature of all thing is empty..XING KONG), outside is conditional(YUAN QI).
there's no such term as "XING YOU"(inherently existent/Inside is Real) in Buddhism. existent can only be associated with the outside, hence CONDITIONAL EXISTENCE. i oso don't mind ppl say outside is 'real'. but remember that the inside is empty.
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Originally posted by la lapine blanche:
quote:
Everyone,
Coming back to my question - is the "mental continuum" also known as "subtle mind" or is this something else? What is this "permanent thing" with the karmic imprints?
What is Reborn ?
A very good, classic & somewhat complex question!
In brevity:
Causes & Conditioning is passed on & reborn ...
No being, substance, soul or self is reborn as such assumed constant entity or core substance has never existed or ever been observed in the first place...
So how can it then ever be 'reborn' !!!
Existence is a chain of discrete mental states (dhammas) all new yet conditioned by the prior, both proximate and far.
Just like the pearl in a necklace is in contact with the next & next & next etc.
In that way do the prior mental moment condition the next;
Some Examples:
If angry now in this moment one cannot be happy in the immediate next moment, but is conditioned to be either angry also there or indifferent!
If glad now in this moment one cannot be angry in the immediate next moment, but is conditioned to be either glad also there or indifferent!
One is 'reborn' in every moment of life!
Frequency = ~ billions/second!
The conditioning in the terminal life moment is crucial as it determines the next state:
If having killed many beings in life how then to die in a peaceful & calm state ?
Due to the agitation of remorse & regrets in death moment => bad state rebirth.
If having given & done much good in life it is easy to die in peaceful state !
Due to the satisfied serene content in death moment => good state rebirth.
Mind or consciousness descends & settles at a new level corresponding or fitting to its last mixture of characteristics. Very mechanic & not metaphysical at all!
Like a protein molecule sediments in a mixed solution according to its boyancy.
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It is not that I am outstanding, you got it wrong... you people came to that conclusion; you are the outstanding ones when you cannot tell me anything when I asked what is REAL in Buddhism.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Anyway... You must be quite outstanding to come out such a conclusion after all the sutras and verses quoted. And surely Buddha doesn't need so many volumes of emptiness, conditionality, to leads us to Nihilism.. With all devas singing songs and all the supernatural arguments.... you can still come out such a conclusion that emptiness leads to nihiliims. IQ must be quite high...
And still common believers still can pray to Buddha as one that is Greater than all devas gods...etc....isn't this something very exciting and extra-ordinary eh?
I think it takes more than blind faith to believe. -
Originally posted by sinweiy:
That is what I am asking. In Buddhism, what is "XING YOU?" What is REAL? Or to put it in another way; if nothing is "XING YOU" then how can anything be carried over to the next birth/life cycle? How can anything remain when there is no "XING YOU?"
this is wonderful quote, which i can connect to.
ps: again would like to stress that we only say the inside is empty (ie self-nature of all thing is empty..[b]XING KONG), outside is conditional(YUAN QI).
there's no such term as "XING YOU"(inherently existent/Inside is Real) in Buddhism. existent can only be associated with the outside, hence CONDITIONAL EXISTENCE. i oso don't mind ppl say outside is 'real'. but remember that the inside is empty.
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The minute you realise emptiness, without "XING YOU" then that instant you vanish. What remains if you do not instantly vanish? That which does not instantly vanish is "XING YOU." -
Hi longchen,Originally posted by longchen:This is a really an interesting question. It is something that i will like to hear from others as well.
from my understanding, ..
everything is in a constant state of change. Our thoughts, emotions, body are manifestation of essense(presence). However, presence and the manifestions are not 2 thing. They are the same thing, just in different states. The various states of consciousness are all different states of Presence.
The world that we perceive is an illusionary world(insubstantial) that is thought construct. Our 'sense of self' is also thought construct. The impression of a 'self' perceiving and interacting with the world and others is also a thought construct. However, this does not mean that others do not exist. Perhaps we can say that all that we percieve are various manifestion of Presence... your true 'self' so to speak.
I do not really understand 'emptiness'... but my take is that it is refering to the lack of object and solidity of reality. When we talk about objects we are defining something that is contained and with boundaries. Like a cup is the shape of a cup. However, in reality, boundary is a concept of the mind that say that this 'shape' is a cup. This is conceptual, in actuality the thinking mind defined this shape as cup. IMO, this conceptuality is also a though construct.
just my opinion. nothing definitive
What you said is one aspect of emptiness -- the emptiness of self, you may want to explore into another aspect of emptiness, arising without a point of origination, without a point of centricity. However without certain stability in the experience of no-self (anatta) in all entry and exit points (sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, mind), this aspect of Emptiness can only be appreciated conceptually; it will not be understood intuitively.
Happy Journey. -
Let me try a new line of questioning to see if we can crack this...
Form is emptiness and emptiness is form.
What "thing" best describe this? (Hint: you might have to look outside of Buddhism to find the answer if you cannot find it in Buddhist scriptures.)