What is REAL? (spinoff)
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Hi Thusness,Originally posted by Thusness:Hi longchen,
What you said is one aspect of emptiness -- the emptiness of self, you may want to explore into another aspect of emptiness, arising without a point of origination, without a point of centricity. However without certain stability in the experience of no-self (anatta) in all entry and exit points (sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, mind), this aspect of Emptiness can only be appreciated conceptually; it will not be understood intuitively.
Happy Journey.
I have read your message. Thanks so much for the pointers. Really grateful.
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Originally posted by casino_king:Let me try a new line of questioning to see if we can crack this...
Form is emptiness and emptiness is form.
What "thing" best describe this? (Hint: you might have to look outside of Buddhism to find the answer if you cannot find it in Buddhist scriptures.) -
Originally posted by casino_king:
becos outside is 'real' what~ - CONDITIONAL EXISTENCE.
That is what I am asking. In Buddhism, what is "XING YOU?" What is REAL? Or to put it in another way; if nothing is "XING YOU" then how can anything be carried over to the next birth/life cycle? How can anything remain when there is no "XING YOU?"
The minute you realise emptiness, without "XING YOU" then that instant you vanish. What remains if you do not instantly vanish? That which does not instantly vanish is "XING YOU."
like i say no such term as "XING YOU" in Buddhism. (maybe in casino_kingism have.
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did u go thru the quote?:Causes & Conditioning is passed on & reborn ...
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No being, substance, soul or self is reborn as such assumed constant entity or core substance has never existed or ever been observed in the first place...
So how can it then ever be 'reborn' !!!
Existence is a chain of discrete mental states (dhammas) all new yet conditioned by the prior, both proximate and far.
Just like the pearl in a necklace is in contact with the next & next & next etc.
In that way do the prior mental moment condition the next; -
Originally posted by casino_king:
Middle way.
Let me try a new line of questioning to see if we can crack this...
Form is emptiness and emptiness is form.
What "thing" best describe this? (Hint: you might have to look outside of Buddhism to find the answer if you cannot find it in Buddhist scriptures.)
"Form is emptiness and emptiness is form." is misuse too.
should be in this Maxim:
emptiness affirm the existence of form;
emptiness negates the self-nature of form.
Form cannot be seperated from emptiness.
every "thing" have a outer form, and have a inner emptiness.
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The flesh certainly is destroyed does not continue. If you say mental states (dhammas) continue, then what are mental states (dhammas?)Originally posted by sinweiy:Existence is a chain of discrete mental states (dhammas) all new yet conditioned by the prior, both proximate and far.
Just like the pearl in a necklace is in contact with the next & next & next etc.
In that way do the prior mental moment condition the next;
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Are they ((mental states, dhammas) REAL? Are they XING KONG? or inherently empty? If they are inherently empty like the human body, how did they continue and not disintegrate into basic forms like the human body? -
HABIT.Originally posted by casino_king:The flesh certainly is destroyed does not continue. If you say mental states (dhammas) continue, then what are mental states (dhammas?)
Are they ((mental states, dhammas) REAL? Are they XING KONG? or inherently empty? If they are inherently empty like the human body, how did they continue and not disintegrate into basic forms like the human body?
the karma is sort of like the present HABIT of greed, hatred & folly momentum energy that lead/stored to the next body.
cont quote:Some Examples:
wat's Buddha's aim for this emptiness teaching? none other than to sever one's selfish mind (layman term).
If angry now in this moment one cannot be happy in the immediate next moment, but is conditioned to be either angry also there or indifferent!
If glad now in this moment one cannot be angry in the immediate next moment, but is conditioned to be either glad also there or indifferent!
One is 'reborn' in every moment of life!
Frequency = ~ billions/second!
The conditioning in the terminal life moment is crucial as it determines the next state:
If having killed many beings in life how then to die in a peaceful & calm state ?
Due to the agitation of remorse & regrets in death moment => bad state rebirth.
If having given & done much good in life it is easy to die in peaceful state !
Due to the satisfied serene content in death moment => good state rebirth.
Mind or consciousness descends & settles at a new level corresponding or fitting to its last mixture of characteristics. Very mechanic & not metaphysical at all!
Like a protein molecule sediments in a mixed solution according to its boyancy.
first one must believe that there's rebirth. if not it's pointless to one who don't believe in rebirth.
example: in one life, say u are a consultant, then u think u are the everlasting consultant and tend to be protective of oneself. attached to ur belonging and love ones. and when things do not last, u feel sadness and suffering.
then when rebirth into another life as a boss, he think he's the everlasting boss. not able to be selfless. then in other life, one's in animal realms or some other realms...on and on.
ppl are not able to see that all this are just a cycle or 'mental continuum'. or that the outside is just temporary real, but the inside do not have a everlasting substance. ppl tend to be easily lead by this temporary form.
but when seeing this truth, ppl can break away from their Egoism.
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Can't you see that you are not answering the question? I asked you a simple question and that is, if the body is inherently empty, then on death, it disintegrates into its constituent parts.
If on death, (mental states, dhammas) does not disintegrate, then are these (mental states, dhammas) not inherently empty?
What are they then? These (mental states, dhammas?) -
still have not got the meaning of emptiness. it's so much so that they Are in a state of Continuum that thay ARE inherently empty.Originally posted by casino_king:Can't you see that you are not answering the question? I asked you a simple question and that is, if the body is inherently empty, then on death, it disintegrates into its constituent parts.
If on death, (mental states, dhammas) does not disintegrate, then are these (mental states, dhammas) not inherently empty?
What are they then? These (mental states, dhammas?)
inherently emptiness affirm they(mental states, dhammas) exist;
but their self-nature is KONG due to this Continuum state.
the body might disintegrates , but new body reappear, hence also a state of Continuum too.
the mental (say angry or happy) disintegrate, but new mental reappear, hence also state of Continuum too.
can u always be angry? can u always be happy? can u always be sad?
the Buddha taught that every moment/snap of ur finger, our mental states, dhammas already undergo death and rebirth for 900 times! other word, 1 second, there's 216000 mental death and rebirth!
how can people see?!
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If you put it this way then some things do not make sense. I can see the changes, from baby to old age. From uneducated to educated. From novice to expert.
If things continues non stop, then what you have is: from baby to old to very old to very very old ad infinitum.
From apprentice to novice to expert... ad infinitum. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
or more like cyclic.
If you put it this way then some things do not make sense. I can see the changes, from baby to old age. From uneducated to educated. From novice to expert.
If things continues non stop, then what you have is: from baby to old to very old to very very old ad infinitum.
From apprentice to novice to expert... ad infinitum.
there's stop wat~, like inbetween, temporary stop, shen(birth), lao(old), ping(sick), si(death).
there's death, but that what follow is new birth.
like the sun set in the evening, rises in the morning. the universe die and new universe is born. can't say it's non-stop, as within there's small stop.
enligtenment is to transcend/understood this duality of stop and non-stop concept.
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When the sun rise and set, it is the same sun. The sun does not die and we see a new sun. It is like sleeping. We sleep and we awake and we are the same person. We do not sleep and then wake up a different person.Originally posted by sinweiy:or more like cyclic.
there's stop wat~, like inbetween, temporary stop, shen(birth), lao(old), ping(sick), si(death).
there's death, but that what follow is new birth.
like the sun set in the evening, rises in the morning. the universe die and new universe is born. can't say it's non-stop, as within there's small stop.
enligtenment is to transcend/understood this duality of stop and non-stop concept.
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So please explain what you mean. -
people change too especially women oneday or moment they can like this, on the next they can get bored. sun also change, become less fuel and later supernova. moreover that say the cells in one's body is completely change anew or renewed every 7 years. HOWEVER which part of the person is same? the hand? the face? exactly same? no wrinkles? try a mircoscope.
or is the 'I' real?
pls read:
Where Is The Self?
Ven: The same is true for our "self" or "I." Remember a time when you were very angry. How did "I" appear then? It seems very solid - as if there is a real me that someone is insulting. That "I" feels real, as if it were independent, yet still somewhere inside our body and Mind. We get angry in order to defend that "I" that seems so real. If that solid, independent "I" exists as it appears to us, we should be able to find it, either among our body and Mind or separate from them. There is no other place such an "I" could be. Let's see. Are you your body?
Aud: Yes.
Ven: Which part of your body are you? Are you your arm? Your chest? Your little toe? your brain? It's clear that we aren't any of the parts of our body. Let's try again. Are you your Mind?
Aud: I must be.
Ven: Which Mind are you? Are you your visual consciousness? Your auditory consciousness? Your mental consciousness? Are you one particular characteristic? If you were your angry self, you would always be angry!
Aud: "I" am what goes from one life to the next.
Ven: But what goes from one life to the next is constantly changing. Can you point to one moment of your Mind that always has been and always will be you? Are you yesterday's Mind? Today's Mind? Tomorrow's Mind?
Aud: I'm all of them together.
Ven: But that's a collection of parts, none of which are "I". To say that is "I" is like saying a group of grasshoppers are a butterfly.
Maybe you're completely separate from your body and Mind. That is, can you take away your body and Mind and you ("I") still remain independently? If the "I" is separate from the body and Mind, my body and Mind could be here and I could be across the room. Is that possible?
The "I" or self doesn't exist independently of the body and Mind. It is not the body and it is not the Mind. Neither is it the body and Mind together. In other words, the solid "I" that we felt when we're angry doesn't exist at all. What we are negating is its independent or inherent existence. There a conventionally existent "I" that is angry and that "I" does not exists independently.
The "I" depends on causes and conditions the coming together of the sperm and egg of our parents, our consciousness from a precious life and so on. The "I" also depends on the parts, which compose it: our body and Mind. The "I" also depends on concept and label. That is, on the basis of our body and Mind being together, we conceive of a person and label it "I". We exist by being merely labeled on a suitable basis - our body and Mind.
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tink it's time for Shurangama Sutra:
read it slowly:
When �nanda and the great assembly heard the Buddha’s instructions, they became peaceful and composed both in body and mind. They recollected that since time without beginning, they had strayed from their fundamental true mind by mistakenly taking the shadows of the differentiations of conditioned defilements to be real. Now on this day as they awakened, they were each like a lost infant who suddenly finds its beloved mother. They put their palms together to make obeisance to the Buddha.
They wished to hear the Thus Come One enlighten them to the dual nature of body and mind, of what is false, of what is true, of what is empty and what is existent, and of what is subject to production and extinction and what transcends production and extinction.
Then King Prasenajit rose and said to the Buddha, "In the past, when I had not yet received the teachings of the Buddha, I met Katyayana and Vairatiputra, both of whom said that this body ends at death, and that this is Nirvana. Now, although I have met the Buddha, I still wonder about that. How can I go about realizing the mind at the level of no production and no extinction? Now all in this Great Assembly who still have outflows also wish to be instructed on this subject."
The Buddha said to the great king, "LetÂ’s talk about your body as it is right now. Now I ask you, will your physical body be like vajra, indestructible and living forever? Or will it change and go bad?"
"World Honored One, this body of mine will keep changing until it eventually perishes."
The Buddha said, "Great king, you have not yet perished. How do you know you will perish?"
"World Honored One, although my impermanent, changing, and decaying body has not yet become extinct, I observe it now, as every passing thought fades away. Each new one fails to remain, but is gradually extinguished like fire turning wood to ashes. This ceaseless extinguishing convinces me that this body will eventually completely perish."
The Buddha said, "So it is."
"Great king, at your present age you are already old and declining. How does your appearance and complexion compare to when you were a youth?"
"World Honored One, in the past when I was young my skin was moist and shining. When I reached the prime of life, my blood and breath were full. But now in my declining years, as I race into old age, my form is withered and wizened and my spirit dull. My hair is white and my face is wrinkled and not much time remains for me. How could one possibly compare me now with the way I was when in my prime?"
The Buddha said, "Great king, your appearance should not decline so suddenly."
The king said, "World Honored One, the change has been a hidden transformation of which I honestly have not been aware. I have come to this gradually through the passing of winters and summers.
"How did it happen? In my twenties, I was still young, but my features had aged since the time I was ten. My thirties were a further decline from my twenties, and now at sixty-two I look back at my fifties as hale and hearty.
"World Honored One, I now contemplate these hidden transformations. Although the changes wrought by this process of dying are evident through the decades, I might consider them further in finer detail: these changes do not occur just in periods of twelve years; there are actually changes year by year. Not only are there annual changes, there are also monthly transformations. Nor does it stop at monthly transformations; there are also differences day by day. Examining them closely, I find that kshana by kshana, thought after thought, they never stop."
"And so I know my body will keep changing until it has perished."
The Buddha told the Great King, "By watching the ceaseless changes of these transformations, you awaken and know of your perishing, but do you also know that at the time of perishing there is something in your body which does not become extinct?"
King Prasenajit put his palms together and said to the Buddha, "I really do not know."
The Buddha said, "I will now show you the nature which is neither produced and nor extinguished.
"Great King, how old were you when you saw the waters of the Ganges?” The King said, "When I was three years old my compassionate mother led me to visit the goddess Jiva. We passed a river, and at the time I knew it was the waters of the Ganges."
The Buddha said, "Great King, you have said that when you were twenty you had deteriorated from when you were ten. Day by day, month-by-month, year by year until you reached sixty, in thought after thought there has been change. Yet when you saw the Ganges River at the age of three, how was it different from when you were thirteen?"
The King said, "It was no different from when I was three, and even now when I am sixty-two it is still no different."
The Buddha said, "Now you are mournful that your hair is white and your face wrinkled. In the same way that your face is definitely more wrinkled then it was in your youth, has the seeing with which you look at the Ganges aged, so that it is old now but was young when you looked at the river as a child in the past?"
The King said, "No, World Honored One."
The Buddha said, "Great King, your face is wrinkled, but the essential nature of your seeing will never wrinkle. What wrinkles is subject to change. What does not wrinkle does not change. "What changes will perish, but what does not change is fundamentally free of production and extinction. How could it be subject to your birth and death? Furthermore, why bring up what Maskari Goshaliputra and the others say: that after the death of this body there is total annihilation? "
The king heard these words, believed them, and realized that when the life of this body is finished, there will be rebirth. He and the entire great assembly were greatly delighted at having obtained what they never had before.
http://www.buddhistinformation.com/shurangama_sutra.htm
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
What changes will perish, but what does not change is fundamentally free of production and extinction. How could it be subject to your birth and death? Furthermore, why bring up what Maskari Goshaliputra and the others say: that after the death of this body there is total annihilation? "
tink it's time for Shurangama Sutra:
read it slowly:
When �nanda and the great assembly heard the Buddha’s instructions, they became peaceful and composed both in body and mind. They recollected that since time without beginning, they had strayed from their fundamental true mind by mistakenly taking the shadows of the differentiations of conditioned defilements to be real. Now on this day as they awakened, they were each like a lost infant who suddenly finds its beloved mother. They put their palms together to make obeisance to the Buddha.
[b]They wished to hear the Thus Come One enlighten them to the dual nature of body and mind, of what is false, of what is true, of what is empty and what is existent, and of what is subject to production and extinction and what transcends production and extinction.
Then King Prasenajit rose and said to the Buddha, "In the past, when I had not yet received the teachings of the Buddha, I met Katyayana and Vairatiputra, both of whom said that this body ends at death, and that this is Nirvana. Now, although I have met the Buddha, I still wonder about that. How can I go about realizing the mind at the level of no production and no extinction? Now all in this Great Assembly who still have outflows also wish to be instructed on this subject."
The Buddha said to the great king, "LetÂ’s talk about your body as it is right now. Now I ask you, will your physical body be like vajra, indestructible and living forever? Or will it change and go bad?"
"World Honored One, this body of mine will keep changing until it eventually perishes."
The Buddha said, "Great king, you have not yet perished. How do you know you will perish?"
"World Honored One, although my impermanent, changing, and decaying body has not yet become extinct, I observe it now, as every passing thought fades away. Each new one fails to remain, but is gradually extinguished like fire turning wood to ashes. This ceaseless extinguishing convinces me that this body will eventually completely perish."
The Buddha said, "So it is."
"Great king, at your present age you are already old and declining. How does your appearance and complexion compare to when you were a youth?"
"World Honored One, in the past when I was young my skin was moist and shining. When I reached the prime of life, my blood and breath were full. But now in my declining years, as I race into old age, my form is withered and wizened and my spirit dull. My hair is white and my face is wrinkled and not much time remains for me. How could one possibly compare me now with the way I was when in my prime?"
The Buddha said, "Great king, your appearance should not decline so suddenly."
The king said, "World Honored One, the change has been a hidden transformation of which I honestly have not been aware. I have come to this gradually through the passing of winters and summers.
"How did it happen? In my twenties, I was still young, but my features had aged since the time I was ten. My thirties were a further decline from my twenties, and now at sixty-two I look back at my fifties as hale and hearty.
"World Honored One, I now contemplate these hidden transformations. Although the changes wrought by this process of dying are evident through the decades, I might consider them further in finer detail: these changes do not occur just in periods of twelve years; there are actually changes year by year. Not only are there annual changes, there are also monthly transformations. Nor does it stop at monthly transformations; there are also differences day by day. Examining them closely, I find that kshana by kshana, thought after thought, they never stop."
"And so I know my body will keep changing until it has perished."
The Buddha told the Great King, "By watching the ceaseless changes of these transformations, you awaken and know of your perishing, but do you also know that at the time of perishing there is something in your body which does not become extinct?"
King Prasenajit put his palms together and said to the Buddha, "I really do not know."
The Buddha said, "I will now show you the nature which is neither produced and nor extinguished.
"Great King, how old were you when you saw the waters of the Ganges?” The King said, "When I was three years old my compassionate mother led me to visit the goddess Jiva. We passed a river, and at the time I knew it was the waters of the Ganges."
The Buddha said, "Great King, you have said that when you were twenty you had deteriorated from when you were ten. Day by day, month-by-month, year by year until you reached sixty, in thought after thought there has been change. Yet when you saw the Ganges River at the age of three, how was it different from when you were thirteen?"
The King said, "It was no different from when I was three, and even now when I am sixty-two it is still no different."
The Buddha said, "Now you are mournful that your hair is white and your face wrinkled. In the same way that your face is definitely more wrinkled then it was in your youth, has the seeing with which you look at the Ganges aged, so that it is old now but was young when you looked at the river as a child in the past?"
The King said, "No, World Honored One."
The Buddha said, "Great King, your face is wrinkled, but the essential nature of your seeing will never wrinkle. What wrinkles is subject to change. What does not wrinkle does not change. "What changes will perish, but what does not change is fundamentally free of production and extinction. How could it be subject to your birth and death? Furthermore, why bring up what Maskari Goshaliputra and the others say: that after the death of this body there is total annihilation? "
The king heard these words, believed them, and realized that when the life of this body is finished, there will be rebirth. He and the entire great assembly were greatly delighted at having obtained what they never had before.
http://www.buddhistinformation.com/shurangama_sutra.htm
/\[/b]
Interesting thought, is there any way to scientifically verify the existence of life after death? Just something that prompts my curiousity. -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
there are case studies.
Interesting thought, is there any way to scientifically verify the existence of life after death? Just something that prompts my curiousity.
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=search&search_str=reincarnationOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:
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Resources and evidences on Reincarnation: http://www.ial.goldthread.com/links.html
To those interested: I recommend googling on Dr Ian Stevenson. He has done great amount of research into reincarnation and provides many evidences.
In Buddhism, there are 31 planes of existences that samsaric beings may be borned in, according to our karma: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html
For me, I have seen many cases of people remembering past lives, and some direct 'evidences', so even though I have not rememberd my own past lives, I certainly do believe in reincarnation.