what is the name of the part of you that experiences rebirth
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Sorry, I know I've asked this before but still not clear.
Is there a permanent part of us that connects us with our former and future lives? What exactly does it consist of? Is it a permanent, real thing that "holds" our karmic imprint or is it just the karma itself?
I have heard it referred to as the mental continuum. Is this the generally accepted name for it, and is it the same as "subtle mind"?
Thanx -
Hi la lapine blanche,Originally posted by la lapine blanche:Sorry, I know I've asked this before but still not clear.
Is there a permanent part of us that connects us with our former and future lives? What exactly does it consist of? Is it a permanent, real thing that "holds" our karmic imprint or is it just the karma itself?
I have heard it referred to as the mental continuum. Is this the generally accepted name for it, and is it the same as "subtle mind"?
Thanx
It is called the Bhavanga in Abhidhamma and has caused a great deal of controversy. It often misunderstood as the "Concealed Atman" in Buddhism. Do study it with care as it can quite misleading if misinterpreted.
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Hi, I think I had warned you before that pursuing this line of enquiry can be dangerous. Yet the biggest prize is always where the most danger is.Originally posted by la lapine blanche:Sorry, I know I've asked this before but still not clear.
Is there a permanent part of us that connects us with our former and future lives? What exactly does it consist of? Is it a permanent, real thing that "holds" our karmic imprint or is it just the karma itself?
I have heard it referred to as the mental continuum. Is this the generally accepted name for it, and is it the same as "subtle mind"?
Thanx
I understand that you were from the Christian tradition. Buddha had told his disciples to take his teaching as rafts to cross over the rivers of ignorance but to discard the rafts once you have cross over each river.
When you cannot find rafts to aid you in Buddhism and in the light of this teaching by Buddha (to discard his rafts and not take his teaching dogmatically,) you might want to revisit what Jesus taught regarding this question (rather than what the church taught.)
The Tibetan Dailai Lama and the Catholic Pope had no qualms being friendly with each other. So you should also not be too hesitant to try to discover the truth for yourself, whether it is from Buddhism or Jesus. -
AMTF!
experience is just experience. one moment one can feel happy, and on the next lonely. experience also undergo changes, and arises due to conditions. hence it's also 'empty' of self-nature. in the heart sutra, even the inherent existence and five aggregates are empty (ie undergo change and conditioning).
"Shariputra, whatever son or daughter of the lineage wishes to engage in the practice of the profound perfection of wisdom should look perfectly like this: subsequently looking perfectly and correctly at the emptiness of inherent existence also of the five aggregates.
"Form is empty; emptiness is form. Emptiness is not other than form; form is not other than emptiness. Likewise, feeling, discrimination, compositional factors and consciousness are empty.
http://web.singnet.com.sg/~rjp31831/hsutra.htm
if u want to know the real and pure essence that do not change. it's the origin ability of the senses, MINUS off the attachment, discrimination and wandering thoughts.
reference: read Shurangama Sutra texts in purple:
http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=198738&page=4
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And why do you presume that there is no answer in Buddhism on this before even trying to find out?Originally posted by casino_king:I understand that you were from the Christian tradition. Buddha had told his disciples to take his teaching as rafts to cross over the rivers of ignorance but to discard the rafts once you have cross over each river.
When you cannot find rafts to aid you in Buddhism and in the light of this teaching by Buddha (to discard his rafts and not take his teaching dogmatically,) you might want to revisit what Jesus taught regarding this question (rather than what the church taught.)
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Because I spent so much time asking the same question in the topic "What is REAL" in Buiddhism?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:And why do you presume that there is no answer in Buddhism before even trying to find out?
And also what Thusness posted in this thread (2nd) post?
As far as I can see, there is some sorh of gap in Buddhism regarding this although much of Buddhism makes plenty of sense. -
Do look into the Yogacara explanation on the 8th Consciousness:Originally posted by la lapine blanche:Sorry, I know I've asked this before but still not clear.
Is there a permanent part of us that connects us with our former and future lives? What exactly does it consist of? Is it a permanent, real thing that "holds" our karmic imprint or is it just the karma itself?
I have heard it referred to as the mental continuum. Is this the generally accepted name for it, and is it the same as "subtle mind"?
Thanx
http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/Yogacara/BasicVerseseighthcons.htm
Its nature is exclusively the non-obscuring indeterminate, and it interacts with the Five Universally Interactive Dharmas.
Before its transformation into wisdom, the eighth consciousness always arises together with the seventh consciousness and the Five Universally Interactive Dharmas: attention, contact, feeling, conceptualization, and deliberation. The nature of the eighth consciousness is said to be "non-obscuring" because it does not obscure True Thusness. The eighth consciousness can also be said to be "unobscured" because its own nature is not obscured by the mind-dependent dharmas that arise with it. It is indeterminate because, being passive, it does not make the distinctions of wholesome and unwholesome or any other distinctions.
The eighth consciousness contains seeds, karmic potentials created by previous karmic activities. The seeds ripen and become actual dharmas as they are "perfumed" by the karmic activity of the first seven consciousnesses. The image here is built on an analogy with of sesame seeds, which take on the fragrance of the sesame plant's flowers or of any fragrance with which they come into contact.
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The first 7 consciousness, which is the 6 sense consciousness + 7th consciousness, are propelled by cause and conditions due to the ripening of karmic seeds from the 8th Consciousness. The volition of a sentient being plants a karmic seed into the 8th consciousness whenever a cause that will lead to a karmic result is committed. The 8th Consciousness can also be seen as a 'tape recorder', as our memories and past life memories are stored in this consciousness.
8th Consciousness by itself is 'non-obscuring', and due to delusion, there arise the 7th Consciousness which takes the 8th Consciousness as a permanent entity, as a 'Self'. Therefore awakening is the transform 'consciousness' to 'awareness'/'wisdom'. 7th Consciousness is basically, the egoic consciousness, consciousness of a seperate self.
In reality, consciousness is also 'non-self', 'impermanent', - a continuum. Not a permanent entity. -
Consciousness does not exist independently. If that which the consciousness arises is inherently empty, then the consciousness of the that which is inherently empty is itself inherently empty.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Do look into the Yogacara explanation on the 8th Consciousness:
That is not the answer the topic starter is asking.
To put it another way, the duality, samsara vs nirvana, not 2 not one and the seeker must transcend this duality. Transcend this duality into what? The transcendance takes the seeker where?
What is that which is permanent does the seeker finds when he transcends? -
Originally posted by casino_king:
We have already answered you. If you still do not understand, you simply havent asked again in that topic. So don't blame us.
Because I spent so much time asking the same question in the topic "What is REAL" in Buiddhism?And also what Thusness posted in this thread (2nd) post?
Thusness said it can be misunderstood. In fact any teaching can be misunderstood, Jesus teachings can be misunderstood too. So what's your point?As far as I can see, there is some sorh of gap in Buddhism regarding this although much of Buddhism makes plenty of sense.
It is very often said that when one is awakened in Buddhism, all the sutras in the Tripitaka will make perfect sense and everything will be understood.
Before awakening, there will always be things that does not make sense because one could not understand yet. -
I am not saying that it makes sense or not but that the answer to the question simply does not exists.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:It is very often said that when one is awakened in Buddhism, all the sutras in the Tripitaka will make perfect sense and everything will be understood.
Before awakening, there will always be things that does not make sense because one could not understand yet. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
What is that which is permanent does the seeker finds when he transcends?if u want to know the real and pure essence that do not change. it's the origin ability of the senses, MINUS off the attachment, discrimination and wandering thoughts.
impermanence is permanent.
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If you mean that there is something with inherent existence, then indeed, Buddhism does not hold such a view.Originally posted by casino_king:I am not saying that it makes sense or not but that the answer to the question simply does not exists. -
What it means by 'continuum':
Life (Self) is nothing other than the continuous flow of the Now Moment.
The Now Moment ceases as it arises. This moment must completely ceased
and serves as the CAUSE for the next moment to arise.
Therefore Self is a process of series Self1, Self2, Self3, Self4, Self5, Self6...etc
A fixed entity 'Self' does not exist, what really exists is a momentary Self.
Under deep meditation, one is able to observe and sense the karmic and mental factors from moment to moment,
it is these factors that are succeeded from moment to moment and life and life but not a fixed entity.
When the karmic and mental factors subsides, it is known as "The True and Only (and Inherently egoless) Conscious Light (Itself)".
- Thusness -
Avatamsaka Sutra mentioned: All beings have the Wisdom and virtue of the Thus Come One, but due to wandering thoughts/dualism and attachment, one is not able to precieve it.
If one can just let go of wandering thoughts/dualism and attachment, our original nature of wisdom will be realised.
http://sg.search.yahoo.com/search?p=%E4%B8%80%E5%88%87%E4%BC%97%E7%94%9F%E7%9A%86%E6%9C%89%E5%A6%82%E6%9D%A5%E6%99%BA%E6%85%A7%E5%BE%B7%E7%9B%B8%2C%E4%BD%86%E4%BB%A5%E5%A6%84%E6%83%B3%E6%89%A7%E8%91%97%E8%80%8C%E4%B8%8D%E8%83%BD%E8%AF%81%E5%BE%97&y=All+the+Web&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t909&x=wrt
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Now i truly understand why pple say buddhism is not suitable for everyone. Understanding buddhism require wisdomOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:If you mean that there is something with inherent existence, then indeed, Buddhism does not hold such a view.
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If Buddhism does not have the answer or does not attempt the answer, then just say so. It is pointless to sound profound when there is nothing there. I am not saying that I understand why Buddhism does not attempt to answer the question, I am simply saying that Buddhism does not give the answer, that is all.
There are many implications when Buddhism does not give an answer to that question. -
u see no answer, i see infinity answers given.
even no answer is a form of answer.
only a child-like mind need a fixed anwser.
if u want it to be God, then God it is.
so wat's the fix anwser, u want?
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It is pointless to ask me what the answer is. I am only interested in what answer Buddhism gives to this question.Originally posted by sinweiy:u see no answer, i see infinity answers given.
even no answer is a form of answer.
only a child-like mind need a fixed anwser.
if u want it to be God, then God it is.
so wat's the fix anwser, u want?
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Originally posted by casino_king:
already given above..but u don't want to accept and only wanted an answer u wanted. how?
It is pointless to ask me what the answer is. I am only interested in what answer Buddhism gives to this question.[/b]
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Then where and who is Buddha? The one who passed away from earth? Without inherent existence then Buddha himself would have "disappeared."Originally posted by An Eternal Now:If you mean that there is something with inherent existence, then indeed, Buddhism does not hold such a view. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
Buddha is Buddha. U are u. i am i. Buddha existed as u and i. and we will also pass on like Buddha pass on. His passing away show the more the emptiness of a permanent existing body.
Then where and who is Buddha? The one who passed away from earth? Without inherent existence then Buddha himself would have "disappeared."
do ur "inherent existence" = existence ?
as ur statement to me meant "Without existence(w/o inherent) then Buddha himself would have "disappeared".
but: sunyata does not mean non-existence. it mean existence of existence wat.
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I am not aware that you have asked any questions hereOriginally posted by casino_king:If Buddhism does not have the answer or does not attempt the answer, then just say so. It is pointless to sound profound when there is nothing there. I am not saying that I understand why Buddhism does not attempt to answer the question, I am simply saying that Buddhism does not give the answer, that is all.
There are many implications when Buddhism does not give an answer to that question. -
[double post]
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Rebirth merely is, no person undergoes reincarnation. Difference between rebirth and reincarnation is that reincarnation implies there is a 'self' undergoing reincarnation, while rebirth simply means a continuum. Because we are empty of inherent existence, there is no 'self' that is the same as us in the past, nor will there be a 'self' that is the same as us in the future. Neither similar nor different, cos empty. Reality is beyond extremes.. if we go by linear analysis we cannot understand it. We will be trapped in the assumption that there is a really real past and a really real future, and then we cling to them as our egoic identity. This is what I meant by '7th consciousness clinging to 8th consciousness as a Self'. Therefore, the perceived duality that there must be a self or something real with inherent existence that is experiencing the world is from the beginning a great illusion caused by grasping in the time dimension and missing the essence.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:"Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found
The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:
Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,
The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen.
No doer of the deeds is found,
No one who ever reaps their fruits,
Empty phenomena roll on,
This view alone is right and true.
No god, no Brahma, may be called,
The maker of this wheel of life,
Empty phenomena roll on,
Dependent on conditions all."
- Visuddhimagga XVI 90
There has always been NOW, what you perceive as future and past is just memory and rearrangement of memory to form prediction, and even the memory and recalling takes place in the NOW. Difficult to grasp? It's very simple if you dont try to understand it through linear mode of analysis. Too simple that it doesn't make sense to our ordinary mind. Let's say, in terms of clock time 3 hours ago you were drinking coffee. But while you were drinking coffee, you were drinking coffee in the NOW. 3 hours later you drink coffee, you will be drinking coffee in the NOW. NOW is all there ever is.
Life is nothing other than the continuous flow of the Now Moment. - Thusness
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"It is like an image reflected in a mirror, it is seen but it is not real; the One Mind is seen as a duality by the ignorant when it is reflected in the mirror constructed by their memory. . . . The existence of the entire universe is due to memory that has been accumulated since the beginningless past but wrongly interpreted."; - Lankavatara Sutra
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Subhuti, it is impossible to retain past mind, impossible to hold on to present mind, and impossible to grasp future mind for in none of its activities does the mind have substance or existence. - Diamond Sutra -
To experience reality directly without subject-object division. Becoming the Becoming, not as a seperate person seeing things arising and then grasping them as a 'thing'. Truly seeing consciousness as a continuum, not as fragmented entities.Originally posted by casino_king:Transcend this duality into what??
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Sinweiy:Originally posted by casino_king:
What is that which is permanent does the seeker finds when he transcends?if u want to know the real and pure essence that do not change. it's the origin ability of the senses, MINUS off the attachment, discrimination and wandering thoughts.
impermanence is permanent.
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Pls also read the article written by Chan Master Sheng Yen in Interesting site about stages of progress:
When you are in the second stage, although you feel that the "I" does not exist, the basic substance of the universe, or the Supreme Truth, still exists. Although you recognize that all the different phenomena are the extension of this basic substance or Supreme Truth, yet there still exists the opposition of basic substance versus external phenomena. Not until the distinctions of all phenomena disappear, and everything goes back to truth or Heaven, will you have absolute peace and unity. As long as the world of phenomena is still active, you cannot do away with conflict, calamity, suffering and crime. Therefore, although philosophers and religious figures perceive the peace of the original substance, they still have no way to get rid of the confusion of phenomena.
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One who has entered Chan does not see basic substance and phenomena as two things standing in opposition to each other. They cannot even be illustrated as being the back and palm of a hand. This is because phenomena themselves are basic substance, and apart from phenomena there is no basic substance to be found. The reality of basic substance exists right in the unreality of phenomena, which change ceaselessly and have no constant form. This is the Truth.
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Second stage is Amness, and even Amness has varying degrees as I have told you. The highest stage of AMness lies in the fusing into everything, individuality into nothingness, and finding AMness in everything. There is already a certain degree of Non-Duality experienced, however still there is a subtle attachment to that transcendental experience. This is the highest stage in Hinduism and many other contemplative paths.
Even that, is not yet there. In fact 2nd stage is the basis of all major religions, and only Buddhism transcends that.
Naturally, all great religious figures must have gone through the experiences of this second stage, where they free themselves from the confines of the small "I", and discover that their own basic substance is none other than the existence of the entire universe, and that there is no difference between themselves and everything in the universe. All phenomena are manifestations of their own nature. They have the duty to love and watch over all things, and also have the right to manage them; just as we have the duty to love our own children and the right to manage the property that belongs to us. This is the formation of the relationship between the deity and the multitude of things he created. Such people personify the basic substance of the universe which they experience through meditation, and create the belief in God. They substantiate this idea of a large "I" the self-love of God and formulate the mission of being a savior of the world or an emissary of God.
More of that can be found in the website so read up.