Eating meat.....
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Is eating meat a sin?
If it isn't, why are monks and some staunch buddhists abstain from it totally?
Why are there some not so staunch, but pratising buddhists abstain from meat on certain occasion?
If it is a sin to eat meat, why do many buddhists still eat that and not switch totally to vegetarian? -
According to Theravada, as long as one eats meat under three conditions: one should not have seen, heard, nor have any reason to suspect, that the meat was from an animal killed specifically for him.Originally posted by Honeybunz:Is eating meat a sin?
If it isn't, why are monks and some staunch buddhists abstain from it totally?
Why are there some not so staunch, but pratising buddhists abstain from meat on certain occasion?
If it is a sin to eat meat, why do many buddhists still eat that and not switch totally to vegetarian?
Then it is ok.
In Mahayana, it is told that those practising the Bodhisattva path needs to abstain from meat.
In Vajrayana, monks also eat meat, because Tibetan climates are not suitable for vegetation. But since many Tibetan monks now live in western countries after the invasion, there are many rinpoches who are now vegetarian. -
http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol5no4a.htm
Five Clean Sources of Meat
Many people firmly recognise that the Buddha's teachings are full, subtle, comprehensive and profound. They recognise and revere the truth of the Buddha-dharma as soon as they encounter it. However, they face a common dilemma: they hesitate to take refuge in the Three Treasures because they do not wish to be vegetarians. For this reason, some ponder at the gate of Buddhism for a long time and are afraid to take that step forward. Others arrive at the crossroad of religion, some took the wrong turn and ended up with some cults or unorthodox ways. They do not realise that it is not easy to be born a human, and it is even harder to have the opportunity to encounter the Buddha-dharma. Having been born a human, it is indeed a waste of opportunity not to embrace Buddhism as it knocks at our door.
The Buddha-dharma is infinite and there are in reality more than 84,000 Dharma doors, or methods by which we can embark to learn and practise Buddhism. Vegetarianism is just one of the many methods. To refrain from killing is merely a means of assisting us to progress in our cultivation. As a medicine, meat is permitted in the Buddhist precepts if it is required to cure a particular sickness. Buddhism cherishes compassion. However, killing and causing harm to life have their retributions. The world has no peace as victims and villains engage in a vicious cycle of vengeance and revenge, culminating in calamities and disasters, and inflicting suffering and misery across the world.
Buddha understands the ignorance and habits of sentient beings that have accumulated from aeons of their many past lives. In order to provide sentient beings with an expedient means of embracing Buddhism, those who are not able to convert to a vegetarian diet on a long term basis are permitted to consume meat provided:
(1) That he did not slaughter the animal personally
(2) That he did not instruct others to slaughter
(3) That the slaughter was not committed for his sake
(4) That he did not witness the slaughter
(5) That he did not hear the cries associated with the slaughter
To refrain from killing is fundamental to Buddhism. Regardless of life forms, we must not kill, we must not instruct others to kill, and it must not be killed for our sake, for example, to celebrate our birthday or because we were coming to dinner. These are three sources of clean meat.
In Confucianism, benevolence also means to refrain from killing. It is said that heaven has the virtue of loving life. It cannot bear to witness the loss of life, let alone eat the flesh of those whose cries in death we have heard. Buddhism advocates compassion and loving-kindness to all sentient beings, regardless of their relation to you. It is only appropriate that we do not kill for our livelihood or for the purpose of celebrating occasions, such as births, birthdays, funerals or weddings. Meats are no different from the other foodstuffs purchased from the market if people do not witness the killing or hear the cries of the animal that is being slaughtered. If a differentiation between the two kinds of purchases and the taste of the meat do not exist in the mind, then the guilt is lighter. Together with the three mentioned earlier, these constitute the five sources of clean meat.
Meat eating however is a pre-condition to killing. If people refrain from eating meat, there will be no killing of animals for meat. Sadly, the human race has committed killings for aeons and is engaged in an endless cycle of vengeance and revenge over their past lives. For one who is slaughtered for meat in this life, it is probably because he had done the same to others in the past. The score is even, no more and no less.
People who eat meat from the five clean sources are advised to learn to chant the Buddha's name and the Buddhist mantras, so as to transfer the merits to those whose meat they are eating. They should also wish them an early rebirth in the human realm, to eliminate any thoughts of vengeance, to nurture their virtuous roots to benefit all sentient beings and together build a peaceful, caring and blissful pure land in this world. Only when this is promoted across the entire world, will we be able to eliminate hatred and vengeance, and enhance a mind of compassion and loving kindness. In this way we will be able to transform this Saha world into a pure land. -
These are not Buddist organisation. But having similar motivating cause for vegetarians and values with Buddhism.
These are extraordinary organisations:
1. www.foodrevolution.org - Diet for a New America (Excellent Doc Video) John Robbins is the son of the founder of Baskin Robbins ICE-CREAM empire. - POWER!
2. www.viva.org.uk (Sir Paul McCartney)
3. www.petatv.com (Many interesting video downloads)
Very mind intriging documentary clips:
1. Diet for a New America - John Robbins
2. Devour THE EARTH - narrated by Sir Paul McCartney
3. A Race For Life (Looking at an angle from Health, a very extraordinary stunning REAL LIFE example in the west from the west)
4. SEEDS from Singapore Vegetarian Society - another excellent clipping.
Should any1 want to see any or all of these, pm me.
Thanks. -
i find the explanation concerning clean sources of meat a contradiction. Sin is a sin....there should not be any grey areas and acceptable sin.
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I find point number 3 a bit not so clear....Originally posted by An Eternal Now:http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol5no4a.htm
(1) That he did not slaughter the animal personally
(2) That he did not instruct others to slaughter
(3) That the slaughter was not committed for his sake
(4) That he did not witness the slaughter
(5) That he did not hear the cries associated with the slaughter
.
If we eat a chicken, the chicken must have slaughtered for this purpose
(ie for the purpose of us eating it to fill our stomach), right?
How do we say the slaughter is not committed for our sake?
As for point number 2, we order a steam fish at a restaurant and a fish is slaughtered. So in this case, are we committing a sin? -
You have to know that there is no concept of "sin" in Buddhism, in so far as we abstain from doing certain things because it contravenes a set of rules handed down to us by the old man in the sky.Originally posted by NT2:i find the explanation concerning clean sources of meat a contradiction. Sin is a sin....there should not be any grey areas and acceptable sin.
We do good things because it makes us happy, and we abstain from eating meat primarily because we do not want to cause sufferings to the animals.
In other words, We abstain not because the action infringes a pedantic set of rules constituting this thing call "sin", we abstain because it makes us unhappy if animals suffer for our pleasure.
Having said that, I am not a vegetarian.....
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I kinda agree with you on point three. But I guess the point here is that you have not directly caused the death of that chicken by killing it yourself, or asking someone to kill it for you. What you are doing essentially, is to eat an (already dead) carcasses.Originally posted by Honeybunz:I find point number 3 a bit not so clear....
If we eat a chicken, the chicken must have slaughtered for this purpose
(ie for the purpose of us eating it to fill our stomach), right?
How do we say the slaughter is not committed for our sake?
As for point number 2, we order a steam fish at a restaurant and a fish is slaughtered. So in this case, are we committing a sin?
Of course it can be said that we are still contributing to the demand of other people having the need to make a livelihood of killing chickens... but I guess the same can be said of our need to enjoy modern amenities, and indrectly causing sufferings to the wild life by us polluting the environment... The potential ripple effect can go on infinitely, to the extent that a simple desire to eat an ice cream can cause the death of some living creatures. All these simply point to the First Noble Truth in Buddhism.
I agree on what you say about point 2 too... that is why I refuse to order a 'fresh' fish from a restaurant (much less pick the still living fish to be slaughtered for me)... -
buddhists practice keeping the precepts not so much emphasis on the word "sin".Originally posted by Honeybunz:I find point number 3 a bit not so clear....
If we eat a chicken, the chicken must have slaughtered for this purpose
(ie for the purpose of us eating it to fill our stomach), right?
How do we say the slaughter is not committed for our sake?
As for point number 2, we order a steam fish at a restaurant and a fish is slaughtered. So in this case, are we committing a sin?
"do not kill"
when we go to the restaurant and choose a fish in the fish tank to be killed and prepared for our dish, that is breaking the precept. even if you are not the one directly killing with your own hands, you are the intent and "mastermind" or root cause to the killing. that is called slaughter committed for our/her/his sake.
when we go to the supermarket, or food court to look for food, we sometimes have the idea of what to eat/what to cook and also most of the time we say "don't know what to eat /don't know what to cook". and thus we grab what is offered at the stalls or stands. the hawkers and stuff prepare the food for consumers' sake but not directly for our direct demand or request from live stocks, so we didn't instruct anyone to kill any particular animal for our food directly. we didn't get to see, hear or even smell the killing. -
yes agree with you that a sin is a sin.Originally posted by NT2:i find the explanation concerning clean sources of meat a contradiction. Sin is a sin....there should not be any grey areas and acceptable sin.
it is expedient(suitable, advisable, advantageous) means for buddhist that the buddha laid out the causes to enable buddhists to keep within the precepts of non-killing.
it takes time for a human who has been eating meat since dawn to suddenly switch to full vegetarian overnight. it is a compassionate way the buddha offered for sentient beings to slowly clear away from the unwholesomeness instead of using force or commandment towards "sinlessness" or purity. -
First when we use the word 'sin' we have to clearly separate the differences of understanding of the word 'sin' between Christianity and Buddhism. In fact we do not use the word 'sin' because it will cause confusion, we use the word 'karma'.Originally posted by NT2:i find the explanation concerning clean sources of meat a contradiction. Sin is a sin....there should not be any grey areas and acceptable sin.
There are basically three types of karma, wholesome karma, unwholesome karma, and pure karma.
Killing animals is definitely a "unwholesome karma". However, there are differences in terms of degree of the karma created... for example those who are responsible for directly killing the animals will have a greater karma than those who indirectly kill the animals by consuming, although of course, there is STILL karma. Just that the karma created is lesser when one eats according to the '5 Clean Meat'. I believe we can understand it as karmically purer meat.
Meat eating is, in the eyes of the Buddha, unacceptable. I understand that the Theravada tradition may think otherwise, but as a Mahayana Buddhist which also focuses on walking the Bodhisattva ways, we do believe that the Buddha did not consume meat. (there is a website that shows how there is a misunderstanding that Buddha died from eating 'pork', which is untrue).
In the understanding of the Mahayana, the eating of meat will destroy the root of compassion and therefore we cannot walk to the Bodhisattva path because Compassion is a essential quality of a bodhisattva. Therefore it is not to say that practitioners cannot eat meat, if you eat meat then probably you will end up as an Arhant (a self-liberated person but not attained Perfect and Complete Enlightenment of the Buddha) because you do not have the kind of great compassion for all living beings. -
Number 3 has been discussed before a few times... actually, it means that frozen meat is OK, but if you order live crabs and stuff like that, it is not really 'pure meat' because you are consciously ordering the crab which means you are ordering them to be killed. Therefore I would avoid ordering such meat directly... but if my parents order, then ok laOriginally posted by Honeybunz:I find point number 3 a bit not so clear....
If we eat a chicken, the chicken must have slaughtered for this purpose
(ie for the purpose of us eating it to fill our stomach), right?
How do we say the slaughter is not committed for our sake?
As for point number 2, we order a steam fish at a restaurant and a fish is slaughtered. So in this case, are we committing a sin?
If I am wrong do correct me. -
for me even if my parents order, i also won't eat that particular dish.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:but if my parents order, then ok la If I am wrong do correct me.
there are many other dishes.... hahaaa...
so, it is not ok.
(for me lah) -
I could not reconcile why the reason for Buddhist to go on a vegetarian diet, until I was told a story some years ago.
Going for a vegetarian diet is really, to my understanding, a great way to show COMPASSION.
The story unfolds:
A very adorable young daughther in the family, oneday brought home a lovely pet - a dog. Each day, the dog brought great joy to her and the relationship grew stronger and it became a part of her.
One day, as she was returning home from a party with friends. A surprised celebration in her home with feast of scrumptious food, because her elder brother came home after many years of travelling. The family together with her brother prepared scrumptious dinner.
All members were so overwhelmingly happy and they finished up all the food. The dauther was too engrossed that she temporary forgot about her pet. After dinner, the daughter tried in vain searching for her loved pet.
Guess what the elder brother told her ? -
by eating meat, some life is taken away.
all animals cherish their life and they will cry when they are slaughtered.
eating veggie is a way u show compassionate to all sentient beings. -
Thanks for reply though I am still yet to see a perfect answer to that.
I guess sometimes certain teachings are not so simple to answer or understand in words. hehe
Also this has always been a very tricky question pondering in my head when I try to understand the staunch buddhists .
Another tricky one is on Karma. Which I will post a question some day for more exciting discussion. -
Originally posted by Honeybunz:
I believe I have discussed it quite in details, but if there is anything you wish to clarify do ask and bring it up.
Thanks for reply though I am still yet to see a perfect answer to that.
I guess sometimes certain teachings are not so simple to answer or understand in words. heheAlso this has always been a very tricky question pondering in my head when I try to understand the staunch buddhists .
Ok
Another tricky one is on Karma. Which I will post a question some day for more exciting discussion.
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U're welcomeOriginally posted by Honeybunz:Thanks for reply though I am still yet to see a perfect answer to that.
I guess sometimes certain teachings are not so simple to answer or understand in words. hehe
Also this has always been a very tricky question pondering in my head when I try to understand the staunch buddhists .
Another tricky one is on Karma. Which I will post a question some day for more exciting discussion.
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I think u're referring to "buddhist lay-men" right? I believe most monks don't eat meat. As for why laymen still eat meat, i think it all depends on the determination or choice of the person. sometimes its better to take small steps, i.e. dont run before u learn to walkOriginally posted by Honeybunz:Is eating meat a sin?
If it isn't, why are monks and some staunch buddhists abstain from it totally?
Why are there some not so staunch, but pratising buddhists abstain from meat on certain occasion?
If it is a sin to eat meat, why do many buddhists still eat that and not switch totally to vegetarian?
Hmmm... if the animal is not killed for eating in the first place, then its ok right? For example, animal died in accident, be it drowned, fell from high ground, car accident, etc?Originally posted by Honeybunz:I find point number 3 a bit not so clear....
If we eat a chicken, the chicken must have slaughtered for this purpose
(ie for the purpose of us eating it to fill our stomach), right?
How do we say the slaughter is not committed for our sake?
As for point number 2, we order a steam fish at a restaurant and a fish is slaughtered. So in this case, are we committing a sin?
Say a sheep got killed in a car accident where I'm not involved, if i eat it, will i have any of the "unwholesome" karma? (although i suspect that it is still not advisible becoz this may lead me to yearn for meat)
*Actually not really a Buddhist, and i'm very pai sei to say I love to eat meat. cant kick the habit... although i must also point out that i am an animal lover - sounds contradicting huh?
one interesting thing to note is that - to Christians, eating vegetarian oso includes fish... very strange to me, change the meaning of the word completely... zzz
(use some other word if u have to.)
Honeybunz > really dunno what kinda answer u're looking for. *perfect*? i think the answers given here are already very sufficient already. -
Want to eat just eat la...We are just followers not monks..we commoner,layman,followers got one set of rules..monks got another set of rules..Unless u wana sign on become monk then come and say again la...For the time being just eat all the meat drink & screw & party before the world ends..The world is ending soon
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You won't be finding so many animals died in accident, and it won't be safe to consume them cos you may not know whether they are contaminated or not. So the safest way was to buy them off the shelf, which again back to the same supply and demand issue. When there's some one wanting to eat, some animal gotta die.Originally posted by sgquitter:Hmmm... if the animal is not killed for eating in the first place, then its ok right? For example, animal died in accident, be it drowned, fell from high ground, car accident, etc? -
This term "The World is Ending Soon" has been going on since 1960s, and till now, we are still very much alive. Of course, if you have a specific date as to the ending of the world, maybe you can share with us.Originally posted by Advante_101:Want to eat just eat la...We are just followers not monks..we commoner,layman,followers got one set of rules..monks got another set of rules..Unless u wana sign on become monk then come and say again la...For the time being just eat all the meat drink & screw & party before the world ends..The world is ending soon
Sanghas (ie. Monks) have a much stringent rule, which we call Precepts. These precepts also rooted from the 5 precepts that layman, commoners follows, and the first and foremost, No Killing. You may eat and drink and do whatever you want, but do not forget the effect of the excess booze and meat consumption. I'm sure you've read about it, watched about it, even heard about it.
I do think you have a misconception of a monk or Sangha in this. In fact not all Sanghas are vegetarian, as explained in earlier thread, but still they are bounded by the 5 precepts, that the meat they accept are not killed specifically for them. However, even Dalai Lama also encouarge the Tibetan Monks to be vegetarian in order to cultivate compassion.
Layman or Sangha, you ought to be mindful of the source of your food, which is your meat. Because prior to reaching your home, that poor animal could have died horribly in fear. I would encourage you obtain a free CD named SEEDS produced by Vegetarian Society to understand this in depth. Alternatively, you may view a few clips at www.peta.com or http://www.meat.org/. -
something to contribute:
Vegan Diet May Treat Diabetes
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/26/health/webmd/main1837927.shtml
CBS News Online -
Eating for Peace - by John Robbins (www.foodrevolution.org)
A talk by the Buddhist teacher Thich Naht Hanh on Mindful Consumption
All things need food to be alive and to grow, including our love or our hate. Love is a living thing, hate is a living thing. If you do not nourish your love, it will die. If you cut the source of nutriment for your violence, your violence will also die. That is why the path shown by the Buddha is the path of mindful consumption.
The Buddha told the following story. There was a couple who wanted to cross the desert to go to another country in order to seek freedom. They brought with them their little boy and a quantity of food and water. But they did not calculate well, and that is why halfway through the desert they ran out of food, and they knew that they were going to die. So after a lot of anguish, they decided to eat the little boy so that they could survive and go to the other country, and that's what they did. And every time they ate a piece of flesh from their son, they cried.
The Buddha asked his monks, "My dear friends: Do you think that the couple enjoyed eating the flesh of their son?" The Buddha said, "It is impossible to enjoy eating the flesh of our son. If you do not eat mindfully, you are eating the flesh of your son and daughter, you are eating the flesh of your parent."
If we look deeply, we will see that eating can be extremely violent. UNESCO tells us that every day, forty thousand children in the world die because of a lack of nutrition, of food. Every day, forty thousand children. And the amount of grain that we grow in the West is mostly used to feed our cattle. Eighty percent of the corn grown in this country is to feed the cattle to make meat. Ninety-five percent of the oats produced in this country is not for us to eat, but for the animals raised for food. According to this recent report that we received of all the agricultural land in the US, eighty-seven percent is used to raise animals for food. That is forty-five percent of the total land mass in the US.
More than half of all the water consumed in the US whole purpose is to raise animals for food. It takes 2500 gallons of water to produce a pound of meat, but only 25 gallons to produce a pound of wheat. A totally vegetarian diet requires 300 gallons of water per day, while a meat-eating diet requires more than 4000 gallons of water per day.
Raising animals for food causes more water pollution than any other industry in the US because animals raised for food produce one hundred thirty times the excrement of the entire human population. It means 87,000 pounds per second. Much of the waste from factory farms and slaughter houses flows into streams and rivers, contaminating water sources.
Each vegetarian can save one acre of trees per year. More than 260 million acres of US forests have been cleared to grow crops to feed animals raised for meat. And another acre of trees disappears every eight seconds. The tropical rain forests are also being destroyed to create grazing land for cattle.
In the US, animals raised for food are fed more than eighty percent of the corn we grow and more than ninety-five percent of the oats. We are eating our country, we are eating our earth, we are eating our children. And I have learned that more than half the people in this country overeat.
Mindful eating can help maintain compassion within our heart. A person without compassion cannot be happy, cannot relate to other human beings and to other living beings. And eating the flesh of our own son is what is going on in the world, because we do not practice mindful eating.
The Buddha spoke about the second kind of food that we consume every day -- sense impressions -- the kind of food that we take in by the way of the eyes, the ears, the tongue, the body, and the mind. When we read a magazine, we consume. When you watch television, you consume. When you listen to a conversation, you consume. And these items can be highly toxic. There may be a lot of poisons, like craving, like violence, like anger, and despair. We allow ourselves to be intoxicated by what we consume in terms of sense impressions. We allow our children to intoxicate themselves because of these products. That is why it is very important to look deeply into our ill-being, into the nature of our ill-being, in order to recognize the sources of nutriment we have used to bring it into us and into our society.
The Buddha had this to say: "What has come to be - if you know how to look deeply into its nature and identify its source of nutriment, you are already on the path of emancipation." What has come to be is our illness, our ill-being, our suffering, our violence, our despair. And if you practice looking deeply, meditation, you'll be able to identify the sources of nutriments, of food, that has brought it into us.
Therefore the whole nation has to practice looking deeply into the nature of what we consume every day. And consuming mindfully is the only way to protect our nation, ourselves, and our society. We have to learn how to consume mindfully as a family, as a city, as a nation. We have to learn what to produce and what not to produce in order to provide our people with only the items that are nourishing and healing. We have to refrain from producing the kinds of items that bring war and despair into our body, into our consciousness, and into the collective body and consciousness of our nation, our society. And Congress has to practice that. We have elected members of the Congress. We expect them to practice deeply, listening to the suffering of the people, to the real causes of that suffering, and to make the kind of laws that can protect us from self-destruction. And America is great. I have the conviction that you can do it and help the world. You can offer the world wisdom, mindfulness, and compassion.
Nowadays I enjoy places where people do not smoke. There are nonsmoking flights that you can enjoy. Ten years ago they did not exist, nonsmoking flights. And in America on every box of cigarettes there is the message: "Beware: Smoking can be hazardous to your health." That is a bell of mindfulness. That is the practice of mindful consumption. You do not say that you are practicing mindfulness, but you are really practicing mindfulness. Mindfulness of smoking is what allowed you to see that smoking is not healthy.
In America, people are very aware of the food they eat. They want every package of food to be labeled so that they can know what is in it. They don't want to eat the kind of food that will bring toxins and poisons into their bodies. This is the practice of mindful eating.
But we can go further. We can do better, as parents, as teachers, as artists and as politicians. If you are a teacher, you can contribute a lot in awakening people of the need for mindful consumption, because that is the way to real emancipation. If you are a journalist, you have the means to educate people, to wake people up to the nature of our situation. Every one of us can transform himself or herself into a bodhisattva doing the work of awakening. Because only awakening can help us to stop the course we are taking, the course of destruction. Then we will know in which direction we should go to make the earth a safe place for us, for our children, and for their children. -
Itz not for them to question why but just
for them to do and die.............................
