It neither Devil nor Sins..It our minds!
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7th Consciousness is not located anywhere, but it is that dualism and discrimination of the 6 sense perceptions. In other words, 7th consciousness is not located anywhere, but rather, 7th consciousness is that "sense of location", "sense of self", "sense of inherent existence", based on the input by the first 6 senses, and then division into Subject and Object consciousness. That is why 7th consciousness is the obscuring factor from realising our true nature. 8th Consciousness is however non-obscuring. Actually all our first 7 consciousness arises out of the 8th consciousness due to the ripening of karmic seeds from the 8th consciousness, which is known as the storehouse consciousness.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Where is the 7th consciouness located? If you say that it's in the mind, then you are contradicting yourself. If you say it's in the body, then how can a body have 2 wills?
When unconscious (i.e coma) the 6 consciousness (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind) halts its functioning, 7th consciousness has not died. It is the basis of illusion. Although there is temporarily no sense input and also no mental activity, the basis of ignorance is still there. When a person wakes up from coma, the 7th consciousness jumps into action again. Or when reborn, the 7th consciousness is in action again by discriminating all sense perceptions. 7th Consciousness is not an 'entity' that is 'somewhere', it is simply that - ignorance and dualistic, self-consciousness. 7th Consciousness is the 'dualising'/discrimination of sense input. Just as the first 6 sense perception - i.e Touch perception - is not an entity that is 'somewhere'. The nature of consciousness is that it is not a 'something' somewhere, although the 7th Consciousness sees it that way, but rather it is the sensation itself.
When awakened, the 7th consciousness dissolves, the first 6 consciousness is transmuted into Pure Awareness. There is still sense input, there is still thoughts (although much lesser), but there is no discrimination and grasping and seeking of any of the sense objects or thoughts, there is no longer subject-object dualism, therefore pure.
There is nothing wrong with thoughts at all. It - like any other 6 senses - it is the function of the Buddha Nature. The only problem with thoughts comes when there is grasping, seeking, and 'self'. Identification with thought creates a sense of self and a sense of doership. So do know that thoughts are just phenomena existence, conditioned arising, a happening of thus. Do not arise another mind on top of it - just like your heartbeat. When you do not label and chase after thoughts, thought is self-liberating. We need to understand its nature, not try to stop it. The will and effort to stop is the problem, but the capacity to see all arising is self-arising and liberating is wisdom. -
A very good & clear explanation but i'm afraid it might be too 'chim' for him to understandOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:7th Consciousness is not located anywhere, but it is that dualism and discrimination of the 6 sense perceptions. In other words, 7th consciousness is not located anywhere, but rather, 7th consciousness is that "sense of location", "sense of self", "sense of inherent existence", based on the input by the first 6 senses, and then division into Subject and Object consciousness. That is why 7th consciousness is the obscuring factor from realising our true nature. 8th Consciousness is however non-obscuring. Actually all our first 7 consciousness arises out of the 8th consciousness due to the ripening of karmic seeds from the 8th consciousness, which is known as the storehouse consciousness.
When unconscious (i.e coma) the 6 consciousness (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind) halts its functioning, 7th consciousness has not died. It is the basis of illusion. Although there is temporarily no sense input and also no mental activity, the basis of ignorance is still there. When a person wakes up from coma, the 7th consciousness jumps into action again. Or when reborn, the 7th consciousness is in action again by discriminating all sense perceptions. 7th Consciousness is not an 'entity' that is 'somewhere', it is simply that - ignorance and dualistic, self-consciousness. 7th Consciousness is the 'dualising'/discrimination of sense input. Just as the first 6 sense perception - i.e Touch perception - is not an entity that is 'somewhere'. The nature of consciousness is that it is not a 'something' somewhere, although the 7th Consciousness sees it that way, but rather it is the sensation itself.
When awakened, the 7th consciousness dissolves, the first 6 consciousness is transmuted into Pure Awareness. There is still sense input, there is still thoughts (although much lesser), but there is no discrimination and grasping and seeking of any of the sense objects or thoughts, there is no longer subject-object dualism, therefore pure.
There is nothing wrong with thoughts at all. It - like any other 6 senses - it is the function of the Buddha Nature. The only problem with thoughts comes when there is grasping, seeking, and 'self'. Identification with thought creates a sense of self and a sense of doership. So do know that thoughts are just phenomena existence, conditioned arising, a happening of thus. Do not arise another mind on top of it - just like your heartbeat. When you do not label and chase after thoughts, thought is self-liberating. We need to understand its nature, not try to stop it. The will and effort to stop is the problem, but the capacity to see all arising is self-arising and liberating is wisdom.
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You're right. I have explained that the 7th consciousness is pre-conscious and can function without the first 6 sense consciousness input, yet react upon the input of the six senses to form the dualistic six consciousnesses [consciousness is dualistic - subject-object dualism, but its nature is non-dualistic, once realised, consciousness is transmuted to pure awareness], but I haven't explain the 8 consciousnesses clearly yet.Originally posted by neutral_onliner:A very good & clear explanation but i'm afraid it might be too 'chim' for him to understand
http://www.namsebangdzo.com/product_p/g00198.htm
The five sense consciousnesses of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and body sensation. The sixth is mental consciousness; the seventh is afflicted consciousness, the klesha mind; and the eighth, the alaya, is the ground consciousness.
1. Sight or eye consciousness, mig gi par shes pa, cakshu vijnana
2. Ear or hearing consciousness, rna wa'i rnam par shes pa, shrotra vijnana
3. Smell or nose consciousness, sna'i rnam par shes pa, ghrana vijnana
4. Taste or tongue consciousness, lce'i rnam par shes pa, jihva vijnana
5. Touch or body consciousness, lus kyi rnam par shes pa, kaya vijnana
6. Mental consciousness, yid kyi rnam par shes pa, mano vijnana
7. Afflicted consciousness, nyon yid rnam par shes pa, klesha vijnana
8. Ground or 'base of all' consciousness, kun gzhi rnam par shes pa, alaya vijnana
http://www.namsebangdzo.com/Afflicted_Consciousness_p/g00013.htm
The seventh consciousness. As used here it has two aspects: the immediate consciousness which monitors the other consciousness making them continuous and the klesha consciousness which is the continuous presence of self.
Its nature is exclusively the non-obscuring indeterminate, and it interacts with the Five Universally Interactive Dharmas.
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http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/Yogacara/BasicVerseseighthcons.htm
Eighth Consciousness:
Before its transformation into wisdom, the eighth consciousness always arises together with the seventh consciousness and the Five Universally Interactive Dharmas: attention, contact, feeling, conceptualization, and deliberation. The nature of the eighth consciousness is said to be "non-obscuring" because it does not obscure True Thusness. The eighth consciousness can also be said to be "unobscured" because its own nature is not obscured by the mind-dependent dharmas that arise with it. It is indeterminate because, being passive, it does not make the distinctions of wholesome and unwholesome or any other distinctions.
The eighth consciousness contains seeds, karmic potentials created by previous karmic activities. The seeds ripen and become actual dharmas as they are "perfumed" by the karmic activity of the first seven consciousnesses. The image here is built on an analogy with of sesame seeds, which take on the fragrance of the sesame plant's flowers or of any fragrance with which they come into contact.
The Three Realms with their Nine Grounds come into being in accord with the power of karma.
Although the eighth consciousness does not create karma because it is totally passive in function, the seeds stored within it ripen to create actual dharmas that are the Three Realms and the Nine Grounds. [The Nine Grounds are explained above in the explanation of the second line of the verse describing the first five consciousnesses.]
How vast and unfathomable is the threefold alaya!
Alaya means "storehouse". Because it is a "storehouse" of seeds, storehouse consciousness (alayavijnana) is one of the names by which the eighth consciousness is known. "Threefold" refers to three aspects of the eighth consciousness: it contains seeds, it is 'perfumed', and the seventh consciousness takes it to be the self.
Generated by the winds of states, seven waves arise from its depths.
"Its depths" refers to the extent of the eighth consciousness, which is compared to the ocean. The first seven consciousnesses arise from the eighth consciousness in the same manner as waves arise on the surface of the sea. The wind represents "states", the causes and conditions for the consciousnesses arising. The causes and conditions "perfume" seeds in the eighth consciousness, causing them to sprout, to become actual dharmas. The first seven consciousnesses and the Dharmas Interactive with the Mind associated with them all come into being from seeds stored in the eighth consciousness.
etc...
Lastly all the 8 consciousness are for the purpose of explanation. When transmuted through wisdom, they are One undifferentiated Pure Awareness, that arises as a result of differing conditions. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
form is emptiness; emptiness is form.form is non other than emptiness as emptiness is non other than form.
You're right. I have explained that the 7th consciousness is pre-conscious and can function without the first 6 sense consciousness input, yet react upon the input of the six senses to form the dualistic six consciousnesses [consciousness is dualistic - subject-object dualism, but its nature is non-dualistic, once realised, consciousness is transmuted to pure awareness], but I haven't explain the 8 consciousnesses clearly yet.
http://www.namsebangdzo.com/product_p/g00198.htm
The five sense consciousnesses of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and body sensation. The sixth is mental consciousness; the seventh is afflicted consciousness, the klesha mind; and the eighth, the alaya, is the ground consciousness.
1. Sight or eye consciousness, mig gi par shes pa, cakshu vijnana
2. Ear or hearing consciousness, rna wa'i rnam par shes pa, shrotra vijnana
3. Smell or nose consciousness, sna'i rnam par shes pa, ghrana vijnana
4. Taste or tongue consciousness, lce'i rnam par shes pa, jihva vijnana
5. Touch or body consciousness, lus kyi rnam par shes pa, kaya vijnana
6. Mental consciousness, yid kyi rnam par shes pa, mano vijnana
7. Afflicted consciousness, nyon yid rnam par shes pa, klesha vijnana
8. Ground or 'base of all' consciousness, kun gzhi rnam par shes pa, alaya vijnana
http://www.namsebangdzo.com/Afflicted_Consciousness_p/g00013.htm
The seventh consciousness. As used here it has two aspects: the immediate consciousness which monitors the other consciousness making them continuous and the klesha consciousness which is the continuous presence of self.
Its nature is exclusively the non-obscuring indeterminate, and it interacts with the Five Universally Interactive Dharmas.
---------
http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/Yogacara/BasicVerseseighthcons.htm
[b]Eighth Consciousness:
Before its transformation into wisdom, the eighth consciousness always arises together with the seventh consciousness and the Five Universally Interactive Dharmas: attention, contact, feeling, conceptualization, and deliberation. The nature of the eighth consciousness is said to be "non-obscuring" because it does not obscure True Thusness. The eighth consciousness can also be said to be "unobscured" because its own nature is not obscured by the mind-dependent dharmas that arise with it. It is indeterminate because, being passive, it does not make the distinctions of wholesome and unwholesome or any other distinctions.
The eighth consciousness contains seeds, karmic potentials created by previous karmic activities. The seeds ripen and become actual dharmas as they are "perfumed" by the karmic activity of the first seven consciousnesses. The image here is built on an analogy with of sesame seeds, which take on the fragrance of the sesame plant's flowers or of any fragrance with which they come into contact.
The Three Realms with their Nine Grounds come into being in accord with the power of karma.
Although the eighth consciousness does not create karma because it is totally passive in function, the seeds stored within it ripen to create actual dharmas that are the Three Realms and the Nine Grounds. [The Nine Grounds are explained above in the explanation of the second line of the verse describing the first five consciousnesses.]
How vast and unfathomable is the threefold alaya!
Alaya means "storehouse". Because it is a "storehouse" of seeds, storehouse consciousness (alayavijnana) is one of the names by which the eighth consciousness is known. "Threefold" refers to three aspects of the eighth consciousness: it contains seeds, it is 'perfumed', and the seventh consciousness takes it to be the self.
Generated by the winds of states, seven waves arise from its depths.
"Its depths" refers to the extent of the eighth consciousness, which is compared to the ocean. The first seven consciousnesses arise from the eighth consciousness in the same manner as waves arise on the surface of the sea. The wind represents "states", the causes and conditions for the consciousnesses arising. The causes and conditions "perfume" seeds in the eighth consciousness, causing them to sprout, to become actual dharmas. The first seven consciousnesses and the Dharmas Interactive with the Mind associated with them all come into being from seeds stored in the eighth consciousness.
etc...
Lastly all the 8 consciousness are for the purpose of explanation. When transmuted through wisdom, they are One undifferentiated Pure Awareness, that arises as a result of differing conditions.[/b]
i think one should start to understand about things that have a form first(eg. cup,table,car,computer...) b4 they proceed to more 'deeper' level which is formless (eg. oxygen,hydrogen,electro magnetic wave,brain wave,energy...)
After understanding this(which is ONLY the very FIRST step of understanding the very BASIC concept of EMPTINESS) and when one has reached to a certain level of understanding then proceed to a more complex level eg Human
FORM
Five Aggregate
FORMLESS
MIND/CONSCIOUSNESS
Pls Step by Step -
Actually speaking from Yogacara's understanding is that whether form and formless, all are consciousness. Yogacara is the sanskrit name for Consciousness-Only.
But of course... 5 aggregates still need to be understood first..
Also very important is 18 dhatus... -
Don't mind me saying: "simi lan jiao??!!!?" All thoughts in our minds are neural activity. If you are brainless, where in hell do your neural activity come from? 7th consciousness is nowhere? What true nature do you have that others don't have at the present? Seeing things as they are doesn't put you head and feet over others, you are only better than those suffering from schizophrenia. How about trying to stop your heart from pumping? I advise you to stick to provable facts and stop limiting your mind.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:7th Consciousness is not located anywhere, but it is that dualism and discrimination of the 6 sense perceptions. In other words, 7th consciousness is not located anywhere, but rather, 7th consciousness is that "sense of location", "sense of self", "sense of inherent existence", based on the input by the first 6 senses, and then division into Subject and Object consciousness. That is why 7th consciousness is the obscuring factor from realising our true nature. 8th Consciousness is however non-obscuring. Actually all our first 7 consciousness arises out of the 8th consciousness due to the ripening of karmic seeds from the 8th consciousness, which is known as the storehouse consciousness.
When unconscious (i.e coma) the 6 consciousness (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind) halts its functioning, 7th consciousness has not died. It is the basis of illusion. Although there is temporarily no sense input and also no mental activity, the basis of ignorance is still there. When a person wakes up from coma, the 7th consciousness jumps into action again. Or when reborn, the 7th consciousness is in action again by discriminating all sense perceptions. 7th Consciousness is not an 'entity' that is 'somewhere', it is simply that - ignorance and dualistic, self-consciousness. 7th Consciousness is the 'dualising'/discrimination of sense input. Just as the first 6 sense perception - i.e Touch perception - is not an entity that is 'somewhere'. The nature of consciousness is that it is not a 'something' somewhere, although the 7th Consciousness sees it that way, but rather it is the sensation itself.
When awakened, the 7th consciousness dissolves, the first 6 consciousness is transmuted into Pure Awareness. There is still sense input, there is still thoughts (although much lesser), but there is no discrimination and grasping and seeking of any of the sense objects or thoughts, there is no longer subject-object dualism, therefore pure.
There is nothing wrong with thoughts at all. It - like any other 6 senses - it is the function of the Buddha Nature. The only problem with thoughts comes when there is grasping, seeking, and 'self'. Identification with thought creates a sense of self and a sense of doership. So do know that thoughts are just phenomena existence, conditioned arising, a happening of thus. Do not arise another mind on top of it - just like your heartbeat. When you do not label and chase after thoughts, thought is self-liberating. We need to understand its nature, not try to stop it. The will and effort to stop is the problem, but the capacity to see all arising is self-arising and liberating is wisdom. -
The 7th Consciousness which is mentioned in Buddhism is not refering to a physical thing, neither is it refering to your mind. But rather as I said, the sense of location and self is formed by the 7th consciousness. In terms of Buddhism your mind is the 6th consciousness, 7th consciousness is refering to 'self-consciousness'. Meaning any dualism, attachment to self, is refering to this 7th consciousness, and it is the basis of illusion. 7th Consciousness works ON the first 6 senses input (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind), it works on it by discriminating and seperating them into subject-object dualism, thus causing a sense of self. This basis of ignorance, the 7th consciousness, is something subtler than our gross mind and body. Mental objects, sense perceptions come and go, they are originally pure One Awareness but is wrongly perceived by the 7th consciousness to have their own seperate and inherent existence, and a self that is perceiving them. Although the 7th consciousness works on the first 6 consciousness, it does not depend on the first six senses for survival. It works on mental objects (thoughts etc) by grasping, seeking, discriminating, seperating them but not necessarily dependent on it for survival. When you fall asleep, your first 6 senses go to sleep, and during certain phases of R.E.M in your sleep, your 7th consciousness works on your 8th consciousness by searching and and retrieving all the information that is within your 8th consciousness and replaying them, which induces dreams. Dreams may not have deep meaning on our conceptual level, it is a symbolic realm.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Don't mind me saying: "simi lan jiao??!!!?" All thoughts in our minds are neural activity. If you are brainless, where in hell do your neural activity come from? 7th consciousness is nowhere? What true nature do you have that others don't have at the present? Seeing things as they are doesn't put you head and feet over others, you are only better than those suffering from schizophrenia. How about trying to stop your heart from pumping? I advise you to stick to provable facts and stop limiting your mind.
I think this could be quite deep for a beginner to understand without first knowing about the Buddhist teaching on Anatta, which means No-self. This is a very important teaching and is one of the 3 dharma seals which all authentic Buddhist teachings must bear. It means that 'Self' is an illusion. If we analyse, nothing we can point to is our 'Self'. Our body is not ourself because if we cut a part of our body, we still claim that "I survived". It is not our thoughts, because our thoughts are impermanent and no particular content or thought of our mind that we think, is our 'self'. And so on.... We cannot find our 'self' in anything particular. Therefore it is illusional. I believe neutral_onliner can elaborate on this.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
The True Nature is present all the time and is all pervading, there is not a place that true nature cannot be found, but it also cannot be conceptually grasped, defined, located, because the grasping and fixing on locations is caused by the 7th consciousness which causes a subject-object discrimination/dualism. Only when we dissolve the 7th consciousness can we see the True Nature which is impersonal.
Life (Self) is nothing other than the continuous flow of the Now Moment.
The Now Moment ceases as it arises. This moment must completely ceased
and serves as the CAUSE for the next moment to arise.
Therefore Self is a process of series Self1, Self2, Self3, Self4, Self5, Self6...etc
A fixed entity 'Self' does not exist, what really exists is a momentary Self.
Under deep meditation, one is able to observe and sense the karmic and mental factors from moment to moment,
it is these factors that are succeeded from moment to moment and life and life but not a fixed entity.
When the karmic and mental factors subsides, it is known as "The True and Only (and Inherently egoless) Conscious Light (Itself)".
- Thusness
Schizophrenic people are suffering from split personalities, and seeing things as they are is going even beyond our own personality to see things as it is. Doesn't mean you no longer have any interest, on the level of relativity you still have a personality but you are no longer attached to your personality, you do not see yourself as merely your personality anymore. You are no longer caught up with ideas and notions, you still can function in the conceptual level but there is no bondage.
And does trying to stop heart from pumping has anything got to do with this subject? -
the wisdom from meditation is not so easily understoodOriginally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Don't mind me saying: "simi lan jiao??!!!?" All thoughts in our minds are neural activity. If you are brainless, where in hell do your neural activity come from? 7th consciousness is nowhere? What true nature do you have that others don't have at the present? Seeing things as they are doesn't put you head and feet over others, you are only better than those suffering from schizophrenia. How about trying to stop your heart from pumping? I advise you to stick to provable facts and stop limiting your mind.
unless u are into meditaiton ...or u still will be alien to all this terms in yogacara -
Anyway consciousness is not limited to brain and only temporarily function within a body. Our 5 senses are related to the brain, our mind and thoughts does reflect in the brain (and in fact it does reflect in every part of our body not only in our brain), the brain is a organ like the rest but is not consciousness itself. Any honest scientist will admit that they know very little about the nature of consciousness. Some are also working with Buddhist meditators and scholars into researching consciousness. Also see, CONSCIOUSNESS STUDIES
Buddhism and Science articleOriginally posted by concerned_man:The Boy with No Brain
This is a well known case that throws a challenge to modern science. It's the case of Professor John Lorber and the student with no brain.[1] Professor Lorber was a neurologist at Sheffield University who held a research chair in paediatrics. He did a lot of research on hydrocephalus, or water on the brain. The student's physician at the university noticed that the youth had a slightly larger than normal head, and so referred him to Professor Lorber, simply out of interest. When they did a brain scan on the student they saw that his cranium was filled mainly with cerebrospinal fluid. The student had an IQ of 126, had gained a first-class honours degree in mathematics, and was socially completely normal. And yet the boy had virtually no brain. This is not just a fabrication; research has found other people with no brains. During the first world war, when there was such carnage in the trenches of Europe. Soldiers had their skulls literally blown apart by bullets and shrapnel. It is said that the doctors found that some of the shattered heads of those corpses were empty. There was no brain. The evidence of those doctors was put aside as being too difficult to understand. But Professor Lorber went forward with his findings, and published them, to the great disturbance of the scientific community. Billions of dollars are going into research on the brain. Current views hold that imbalances in the brain are causing your depressions, your lack of intelligence, or your emotional problems. And yet here is evidence that shows you don't need much of a brain to have an excellent mind.
A doctor friend in Sydney discussed this case with me once. He said he'd seen those CT scans, and confirmed that the case was well known in the medical community. He explained that that boy only had what was called a reptilian brain stem. Usually, any baby born with just a reptilian brain stem, without the cortex and the other stuff, will usually die straight away or within a few days after birth. A reptilian brain stem is not capable of maintaining basic bodily functions such as breathing, heart or liver. It's not enough to keep the higher brain functions going. It's not enough for speech, not enough for intelligence, certainly not enough for being an honours student in mathematics. This doctor said, "Ajahn Brahm, you wouldn't believe the problem that this is causing in my field of science. It shatters so much past research. It is challenging so many drug companies that are making billions of dollars in profits". Because dogmatic scientists can't understand how a person with virtually no brain can be intelligent, they are just burying the findings at the back of the filing cabinet, classifying it as an anomaly. But truth just won't go away.
The Mind and the Brain
As soon as you start to include the mind, this 'ghost in the machine', in the equations, scientists tend to become discomfited. They take refuge in dogma, and say, "No, that cannot exist". I really took the Sate Astronomer to task over such dogmatism in science.
As far as Buddhism is concerned there are six senses. Not just the five senses of science, namely sight, sound, smell, taste and touch but in addition the mind. From the very beginning in Buddhism, mind has been the sixth sense. Twenty-five centuries ago, the sixth sense was well recognised. So this is not changing things to keep up with modern times; this was so from the very beginning. The sixth sense, the mind, is independent of the other five senses. In particular the mind is independent of the brain. If you volunteer to have a brain transplant with me you take my brain and I take your brain I will still be Ajahn Brahm and you will still be you. Want to try it? If it was possible and it happened, you would still be yourself. The mind and the brain are two different things. The mind can make use of the brain but it doesn't have to.
Some of you may have had out of the body experiences. These out of the body experiences have recently been the subject of mainstream scientific research. Out of the body experiences are now a scientific fact! I like to stir people up by saying things like that. Recently I saw that Dr. Sam Parnia, a researcher from the University of Southampton Medical School, has given a paper, stating that consciousness survives death.[2] He said that he did not know how it happens, or why it happens, but, he says, it does happen. His evidence was gathered from people who have had out of the body experiences in his hospital. Dr Parnia, investigated and interviewed many, many patients. The information which they gave him, as a cool headed scientist, said yes, those people were conscious during the time they were dead. What was especially very convincing was that often they could actually describe to the doctor the medical procedures that were done during the time when they were clinically dead. They could describe it as if they were looking at their body from a position above the table. But how that happens Dr. Parnia can't explain. Why it happens he can't explain. But other medical findings also support the above. Finally, their findings replicated the work done earlier by Dr. Raymond A. Moody in the United States.[3]
The evidence proved to those hard nosed doctors that out of body experiences do happen. But how could they happen? If we agree that the mind can be independent of the body, then we have a plausible explanation. The brain doesn't need to be functioning for a mind to exist. The scientific facts are there, the evidence is there, but a lot of scientists don't like to admit those facts. They prefer to close their eyes because of dogmatism. -
Also see: Understanding Our MIND by neutral_onliner.
Another article: Buddhism, The only real scienceSome evangelical scientists would do well to reflect on the (amended) old saying "Scientists rush in where angels fear to tread" and stop pontificating about the nature of the mind, happiness and even Nirvana. Neurologists are especially prone to such neuroses (Neurosis: an undue adherence to unrealistic ideas of things). They are claiming that the mind, awareness and will, is now adequately explained by activity in the brain. This theory was disproved over 20 years ago by Prof. Lorber's discovery of the student at Sheffield University with and IQ of 126, a First Class degree in mathematics, but with virtually no brain (Science, Vol. 210, 12 Dec 1980)! More recently, it was disproved by Prof. Pim Van Lommel, who demonstrated the existence of consciousness activity after clinical death, i.e. when all brain activity has ceased (Lancet, Vol. 358, 15 December 2001, p 2039).
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Although there may be correlation between a measurable activity in part of the brain and a mental impression, such co-occurrence doesn't always imply that one is the cause of the other. For instance, some years ago, research showed a clear correlation between cigarette smoking and the non-occurrence of Alzheimer's disease. It was not that smoking cigarettes somehow caused immunity from Alzheimer's, as much as the tobacco companies might have wished, it was only that many smokers did not live long enough to get Alzheimer's disease! Thus a co-incidence of two phenomena, even when repeated, does not mean that one phenomenon is the cause of the other. To claim that activity in the brain causes awareness, or mind, is plainly unscientific.Anyway, how can anyone measure the measurer, the mind? At a recent seminar on Science and Religion, at which I was a speaker, a Catholic in the audience bravely announced that whenever she looks through a telescope at the stars, she feels uncomfortable because her religion is threatened. I commented that whenever a scientist looks the other way round through a telescope, to observe the one who is watching, then they feel uncomfortable because their science is threatened by what is doing the seeing! So what is doing the seeing, what is this mind that eludes modern science?
A Grade-One teacher once asked her class "What is the biggest thing in the world?" One little girl answered "My daddy". A little boy said "An elephant", since he'd recently been to the zoo. Another girl suggested "A mountain". The six-year-old daughter of a close friend of mine replied, "My eye is the biggest thing in the world"! The class stopped. Even the teacher didn't understand her answer. So the little philosopher explained "Well, my eye can see her daddy, an elephant, and a mountain too. It can also see so much else. If all of that can fit into my eye, then my eye must be the biggest thing in the world"! Brilliant.
However, she was not quite right. The mind can see everything that one's eye can see, and it can also imagine so much more. It can also hear, smell, taste and touch, as well as think. In fact, everything that can be known can fit into the mind. Therefore, the mind must be the biggest thing in the world. Science's mistake is obvious now. The mind is not in the brain, nor in the body. The brain, the body and the rest of the world, are in the mind!
Mind is the sixth sense in Buddhism, it is that which encompasses the five senses of sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch, and transcends them with its own domain. It corresponds loosely to Aristotle's "common sense" that is distinct from the five senses. Indeed, ancient Greek philosophy, from where science is said to have its origins, taught six senses just like Buddhism. Somewhere along the historical journey of European thinking, they lost their mind! Or, as Aristotle would put it, they somehow discarded their "common sense"! And thus we got science. We got materialism without any heart. One can accurately say that Buddhism is science that has kept its heart, and which hasn't lost its mind! -
Senses and consciouness are two different things. You can feel yet you do not understand what you feel. And no, schizophrenic people do not suffer from split personalities but rather "split minds". They do not percieve from their senses what actually is rather than what actually "isn't"Originally posted by An Eternal Now:The True Nature is present all the time and is all pervading, there is not a place that true nature cannot be found, but it also cannot be conceptually grasped, defined, located, because the grasping and fixing on locations is caused by the 7th consciousness which causes a subject-object discrimination/dualism. Only when we dissolve the 7th consciousness can we see the True Nature which is impersonal.
Schizophrenic people are suffering from split personalities, and seeing things as they are is going even beyond our own personality to see things as it is. Doesn't mean you no longer have any interest, on the level of relativity you still have a personality but you are no longer attached to your personality, you do not see yourself as merely your personality anymore. You are no longer caught up with ideas and notions, you still can function in the conceptual level but there is no bondage.
And does trying to stop heart from pumping has anything got to do with this subject?
Stopping your heart from pumping by a mental command isn't possible. -
Is understanding the nature of consciousness? Is a baby unconscious if he doesn't "know" what he is feeling? Does mental labelling means consciousness? Does sense perception come first or labelling comes first? And is label relative or absolute? (now obviously we know that different cultures has different words and different understanding of the same thing) So we can conclude that concepts are relative, not its true nature, and the real nature of consciousness is as it is. It is that simple.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Senses and consciouness are two different things. You can feel yet you do not understand what you feel. And no, schizophrenic people do not suffer from split personalities but rather "split minds". They do not percieve from their senses what actually is rather than what actually "isn't"
Stopping your heart from pumping by a mental command isn't possible.
Now when we use the term consciousness, it can mean different things. It may sometimes cause confusion. Actually, when I speak about consciousness, usually I meant that consciousness already has a dualistic connotation, it means 'conscious of something', it is already dualistic. But the nature of consciousness is the direct sensing itself, it is pure awareness. Because of the hypnotic function of words and labels that makes us feel that there is a 'consciousness' seperated from 'phenomena', it is very difficult to see that 'there is a self conscious of something' is false, rather the nature is just awareness itself. No self and no other, only the non-dualistic pure awareness is who you truly are. Now we can conceptually grasp this, it is quite simple, but the hypnotic bond that binds us to our thoughts, body, and self will not go away and needs to be constantly recognised and dissolved through practise of mindfulness. Then our thoughts, bodily senses, will be seen as it is, it is spontaneously self arisen, it is interdepedant arising, and we will not become identified with them.
So that is why I said, the nature of consciousness is awareness, but when speaking in dualistic context it is consciousness. So yes when explaining one can say, ordinary consciousness that we usually speak of is different from direct consciousness or the nature of consciousness, which is pure awareness without dualism. It is direct knowing, not conceptual knowing.
As for your schizo example, anything - personality, or mind, or even 'split bodies'. But a Buddhist can even dissolve any subtle hypnotic bond to our personality, our mind, and our body. It will still be used but we are simply not bonded and the level of clarity and intuitive insight deepens through our practise.
And I am not aware of myself mentioning anything about using thought to stop our heart. That is not possible. -
FantasticOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:Is understanding the nature of consciousness? Is a baby unconscious if he doesn't "know" what he is feeling? Does mental labelling means consciousness? Does sense perception come first or labelling comes first? And is label relative or absolute? (now obviously we know that different cultures has different words and different understanding of the same thing) So we can conclude that concepts are relative, not its true nature, and the real nature of consciousness is as it is. It is that simple.
Now when we use the term consciousness, it can mean different things. It may sometimes cause confusion. Actually, when I speak about consciousness, usually I meant that consciousness already has a dualistic connotation, it means 'conscious of something', it is already dualistic. But the nature of consciousness is the direct sensing itself, it is pure awareness. Because of the hypnotic function of words and labels that makes us feel that there is a 'consciousness' seperated from 'phenomena', it is very difficult to see that 'there is a self conscious of something' is false, rather the nature is just awareness itself. No self and no other, only the non-dualistic pure awareness is who you truly are. Now we can conceptually grasp this, it is quite simple, but the hypnotic bond that binds us to our thoughts, body, and self will not go away and needs to be constantly recognised and dissolved through practise of mindfulness. Then our thoughts, bodily senses, will be seen as it is, it is spontaneously self arisen, it is interdepedant arising, and we will not become identified with them.
So that is why I said, the nature of consciousness is awareness, but when speaking in dualistic context it is consciousness. So yes when explaining one can say, ordinary consciousness that we usually speak of is different from direct consciousness or the nature of consciousness, which is pure awareness without dualism. It is direct knowing, not conceptual knowing.
As for your schizo example, anything - personality, or mind, or even 'split bodies'. But a Buddhist can even dissolve any subtle hypnotic bond to our personality, our mind, and our body. It will still be used but we are simply not bonded and the level of clarity and intuitive insight deepens through our practise.
And I am not aware of myself mentioning anything about using thought to stop our heart. That is not possible.
Consciousness is in-built with knowingness. But this knowingness is mistaken for a doer/self.
makes sense ??
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AEN is gonna rock the buddhist world when he grows up
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wow...! Time to be dead to Presence.Originally posted by longchen:Fantastic
Consciousness is in-built with knowingness. But this knowingness is mistaken for a doer/self.
makes sense ?? 
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No.. tat is the job of the bodhisattvasOriginally posted by Cenarious:AEN is gonna rock the buddhist world when he grows up I'm not a bodhisattva (yet). I am just a learner and I think I have a very very long way to go for my cultivation... -
You mean intellect? Yea... intellect is also a function of consciousness.. and often mistaken to be self.Originally posted by longchen:Fantastic
Consciousness is in-built with knowingness. But this knowingness is mistaken for a doer/self.
makes sense ?? -
Hmm... Thusness very 'chim'... dunno whether he meant i got it right or wrong. Heheh...Originally posted by An Eternal Now:You mean intellect? Yea... intellect is also a function of consciousness.. and often mistaken to be self.
Anyway... no.. i am not referring to the intellect. what i propose is that..
awareness/knowingness is there...but we think that this awareness is a 'self, I or person'. We think that it is 'I' that knows... but it is really consciousness that knows. No person knowing... but just knowing. Because there is knowingness, the belief of 'a self' comes about. -
Oic.. well saidOriginally posted by longchen:Hmm... Thusness very 'chim'... dunno whether he meant i got it right or wrong. Heheh...
Anyway... no.. i am not referring to the intellect. what i propose is that..
awareness/knowingness is there...but we think that this awareness is a 'self, I or person'. We think that it is 'I' that knows... but it is really consciousness that knows. No person knowing... but just knowing. Because there is knowingness, the belief of 'a self' comes about.
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Yes. There is a great difference between 'self' and our pristine awareness. One is an agent housing emotions, feelings, thinking...and so on and so forth...the other is the experience of empty phenomenon rolling on as described by Buddhaghosa. There is never a doer doing anything from start, a point of centricity and locality is not the way to understand this knowingness. We are molded and led to this idea of 'self' by our entire cultural, language and the manifold of phenomonal world. When we experience phenomenal world in raw, we find delight in no-self and dependent origination.Originally posted by longchen:Hmm... Thusness very 'chim'... dunno whether he meant i got it right or wrong. Heheh...
Anyway... no.. i am not referring to the intellect. what i propose is that..
awareness/knowingness is there...but we think that this awareness is a 'self, I or person'. We think that it is 'I' that knows... but it is really consciousness that knows. No person knowing... but just knowing. Because there is knowingness, the belief of 'a self' comes about.
Next, going beyond symbols and labels, one experiences manifestation directly as the luminous presence of knowingness. Phenomenal arising is the result of emptiness nature manifesting from moment to moment. There is no one experiencing and therefore sinking back to a source is a subtle attachment and the result of our symbolic habitual energy. But this experience of presence can become an object of attachment that we must let go. The letting go must be very thorough in terms of mental detachment. We don't have to worry about Presence. What we have to worry is our attachment.
GTG...Makan time...
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He is awakeningOriginally posted by Cenarious:AEN is gonna rock the buddhist world when he grows up
And i'm seeing more & more such promising young buddhists around
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I'm not awakening yet, but hopefully I can eliminate fasterOriginally posted by neutral_onliner:He is awakening
And i'm seeing more & more such promising young buddhists around -
is eliminating self better or is what thusness said betterOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:I'm not awakening yet, but hopefully I can eliminate faster -
You need to eliminate bondage first to get to what Thusness said.Originally posted by Cenarious:is eliminating self better or is what thusness said better
Remember I posted in the Tao topic in the Taoist forum..? How to attain the Tao? -
noOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:You need to eliminate bondage first to get to what Thusness said.
Remember I posted in the Tao topic in the Taoist forum..? How to attain the Tao?