It neither Devil nor Sins..It our minds!
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Realize the DaoOriginally posted by Cenarious:no -
Depends on which meditation linenage you following.Originally posted by bohiruci:the wisdom from meditation is not so easily understood
unless u are into meditaiton ...or u still will be alien to all this terms in yogacara
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Actually one who has meditative experience does not necessarily understand Yogacara terms, unless one reads about Yogacara. But one thing for sure, anyone with meditative experience will be able to translate his experience to Yogacara's understanding. (similarly can be translated to the teachings of the sutras Sutras) After all, the 3 dharma seals is universal, and also universal in all authentic Buddhist traditions.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Depends on which meditation linenage you following. That is why when enlightened, the Tripitakas and 12 Sections will be understood. -
You sure? If the tradition is Christian or Hinduism, can the meditation technique work?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Actually one who has meditative experience does not necessarily understand Yogacara terms, unless one reads about Yogacara. But one thing for sure, anyone with meditative experience will be able to translate his experience to Yogacara's understanding. (similarly can be translated to the teachings of the sutras Sutras) After all, the 3 dharma seals is universal, and also universal in all authentic Buddhist traditions. That is why when enlightened, the Tripitakas and 12 Sections will be understood. -
Sorry when I said 'universal', I mean the 3 dharma seals are 'universal in Buddhism' (which I mentioned above). All authentic Buddhist traditions bear this 3 dharma seals. But other religions do not bear this 3 dharma seals.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:You sure? If the tradition is Christian or Hinduism, can the meditation technique work?
Christians generally do not practise meditation, Christian kind of meditation, even though same in word, is quite different in nature. Mainstream Christian meditation literally means contemplating the words of Jesus, means thinking over the words of Jesus so that it can sink into their mind.
Hindu meditation is also quite different from Buddhist meditation. Hindu meditation is Shamatha meditation, and they do not practise Vipassana medtation. There is no practise of mindfulness in Hinduism, their practises is on focusing, concentration. This practise of focusing, concentration, can lead them to deeper level of absorptions, or mundane samadhi, and is also known to lead to the development of supernatural powers, however it is not insight-practise and does not lead to liberation.
This is just a general overview. There are some similarities in terms of experience with Christian mystics and Hindu non-dualist, but that is another topic. -
Just clarifying my doubts on you mentioning meditation.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Sorry when I said 'universal', I mean the 3 dharma seals are 'universal in Buddhism' (which I mentioned above). All authentic Buddhist traditions bear this 3 dharma seals. But other religions do not bear this 3 dharma seals.
Christians generally do not practise meditation, Christian kind of meditation, even though same in word, is quite different in nature. Mainstream Christian meditation literally means contemplating the words of Jesus, means thinking over the words of Jesus so that it can sink into their mind.
Hindu meditation is also quite different from Buddhist meditation. Hindu meditation is Shamatha meditation, and they do not practise Vipassana medtation. There is no practise of mindfulness in Hinduism, their practises is on focusing, concentration. This practise of focusing, concentration, can lead them to deeper level of absorptions, or mundane samadhi, and is also known to lead to the development of supernatural powers, however it is not insight-practise and does not lead to liberation.
This is just a general overview. There are some similarities in terms of experience with Christian mystics and Hindu non-dualist, but that is another topic.
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You're welcomedOriginally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Just clarifying my doubts on you mentioning meditation. -
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Just to add, it's not only Christian mystic and Hindu Advaita that has similar sort of experiences, but in fact all major religions - Islamic Sufism (in fact I posted this Straits Times article in the Islam forum: Sufi antidote to religious terrorism), Taoism, Jewish mysticism, and some New Age circle, and so on.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:This is just a general overview. There are some similarities in terms of experience with Christian mystics and Hindu non-dualist, but that is another topic.
But few has reached Buddha's sort of understanding on Dependant Origination, and although Lao Tzu may be second to Buddha (i.e should be a pratyekabuddha), so far I haven't seen anyone in Taoism who has such levels of realisation.
Thusness has detailed his own experience, having gone passed six stages of experience to reach this deeper understanding of emptiness. Check page 4 & 5 in Hi everyone, starting from the post on 19 September 2006 · 05:14 PM.
Another guy who is also quite experienced and I have chatted up with in the E-Sangha forum years ago also mentioned in one of his posts,
"one thing Buddhism has that is worthy of worship and worthy of everything we have to offer is the truth of interdependent arising. This alone is worth everything and worth putting up with everything just to be close to this understanding. Nobody, not Ramana, not Gurjieff, nobody, nobody is even close to truth in this matter. Buddhists hold the crown of interdependent arising, and this is the king of all knowledge. I bow to it many times.
Gurus from others paths understand interdependent arising a little bit, but not as strongly. Daoists have a very strong hint of it in Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu, but it's not as explicitely laid out as in Buddhist teachings." -
Nevertheless you'll see something in common in these contemplative paths. They are all in pursuit of Truth and have no room for violence and conflict.
I remember Ajahn Brahmavamso said, why when we look into all these contemplative traditions like Christian Mystics, the Taoists, they are so peaceful unlike those fully academic persons?
Because people dwell dogmatically on theory and academic understanding, they cling to what they believe to be truth in exclusion to all others, instead of undergoing an intense inward journey of self-realisation and finding out for themselves, - and this is why hatred arises. On the other hand the path of contemplation is to "look within".No fanaticism
But this goes to all contemplative traditions in our world, though are uncommon/rare
Of Buddhism alone can it be affirmed it is free from all fanaticism. Its aim being to produce in every man a thorough internal transforming by self-conquest, how can it have recourse to might or money or even persuasion for effecting conversion? The Buddha has only shown the way to salvation, and it is left to each individual to decide for himself if he would follow it.
- Prof. Lakshmi Narasu, "The Essence of Buddhism" -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Agree
Just to add, it's not only Christian mystic and Hindu Advaita that has similar sort of experiences, but in fact all major religions - Islamic Sufism (in fact I posted this Straits Times article in the Islam forum: Sufi antidote to religious terrorism), Taoism, Jewish mysticism, and some New Age circle, and so on.
But few has reached Buddha's sort of understanding on Dependant Origination, and although Lao Tzu may be second to Buddha (i.e should be a pratyekabuddha), so far I haven't seen anyone in Taoism who has such levels of realisation.
Thusness has detailed his own experience, having gone passed [b]six stages of experience to reach this deeper understanding of emptiness. Check page 4 & 5 in Hi everyone, starting from the post on 19 September 2006 · 05:14 PM.
Another guy who is also quite experienced and I have chatted up with in the E-Sangha forum years ago also mentioned in one of his posts,
"one thing Buddhism has that is worthy of worship and worthy of everything we have to offer is the truth of interdependent arising. This alone is worth everything and worth putting up with everything just to be close to this understanding. Nobody, not Ramana, not Gurjieff, nobody, nobody is even close to truth in this matter. Buddhists hold the crown of interdependent arising, and this is the king of all knowledge. I bow to it many times.
Gurus from others paths understand interdependent arising a little bit, but not as strongly. Daoists have a very strong hint of it in Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu, but it's not as explicitely laid out as in Buddhist teachings."[/b] -
I always thought no mind equates to not having problems... Think of the all the psychos out there...
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In Buddhism there is no annihilated mind (in fact nothing is ever annihilated, ultimately there is no arising and ceasing, only continuation, only change), there can be only suppressed mind (i.e sleep, coma, etc). Mind is a continuum of consciousness arising out of conditions, it is not a fixed 'entity', a 'thinker' hiding somewhere. In Buddhism, we can transcend our bondage to the body-mind and realise liberation, nirvana. Mind and body still there, but we are not bonded.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:I always thought no mind equates to not having problems... Think of the all the psychos out there... -
enlightenmentOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:In Buddhism there is no annihilated mind (in fact nothing is ever annihilated, ultimately there is no arising and ceasing, only continuation, only change), there can be only suppressed mind (i.e sleep, coma, etc). Mind is a continuum of consciousness arising out of conditions, it is not a fixed 'entity', a 'thinker' hiding somewhere. In Buddhism, we can transcend our bondage to the body-mind and realise liberation, nirvana. Mind and body still there, but we are not bonded. -
Yes, that means the complete realisation that there never is no arising and ceasingOriginally posted by neutral_onliner:enlightenment -
How so in regards to Mind and Body still there and yet not there?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:In Buddhism there is no annihilated mind (in fact nothing is ever annihilated, ultimately there is no arising and ceasing, only continuation, only change), there can be only suppressed mind (i.e sleep, coma, etc). Mind is a continuum of consciousness arising out of conditions, it is not a fixed 'entity', a 'thinker' hiding somewhere. In Buddhism, we can transcend our bondage to the body-mind and realise liberation, nirvana. Mind and body still there, but we are not bonded. -
It is not that it is not there. It is there, but in Buddhism we say "body-mind drop off".Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:How so in regards to Mind and Body still there and yet not there?
If you relax into present experience in that fashion, the separate-self sense will uncoil; you will stop standing back from life; you will not have experience, you will suddenly become all experience; you will not be “in here” looking “out there” – in here and out there are one, so you are no longer trapped “in here.”
And so suddenly, you are not in the bodymind. Suddenly, the bodymind has dropped. Suddenly, the wind doesn’t blow on you, it blows through you, within you. You are not looking at the mountain, you are the mountain – the mountain is closer to you than your own skin. You are that, and there is no you – just this entire luminous display spontaneously arising moment to moment. The separate self is nowhere to be found.
The entire sensation of “weight” drops altogether, because you are not in the Kosmos, the Kosmos is in you, and you are purest Emptiness. The entire universe is a transparent shimmering of the Divine, of primordial Purity. But the Divine is not someplace else, it is just all of this shimmering. It is self-seen. It has One Taste. It is nowhere else.You are not looking at the mountain, you are the mountain – the mountain is closer to you than your own skin.
I have glimpses of this, although it is only a state where the 'bond' is temporarily suspended. -
You mean it's like the Zen parable:Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I have glimpses of this, although it is only a state where the 'bond' is temporarily suspended.
It's not the wind moving nor the leave moving but your heart moving? -
When body-mind drop off, the mind is not moving. Any 'movement' is a sense of self, a sense of location. It is grasping on a form and thinking that it has a "continual, connected existence". Therefore the zen parable says "the mind moved".Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:You mean it's like the Zen parable:
It's not the wind moving nor the leave moving but your heart moving?
Here's another one which my teacher used to mention:Pines & Water Fowl
Anyway it cannot be intellectually understood. It has to be experienced.
One day the Master and his disciples strolled along the lake. Calm emerald water, stately immobile century old pines, and iridescent playful water fowl created a serene Zen-like picture of nature.
"Look what's in front of us!" exclaimed the Master.
"There are pretty ducks chasing each other." answered the disciples.
"Well, why didn't you notice the motionless pine trees?" rebutted the Master.
The moral of the story is the minds of sentient beings tends to notice and cling to what stirres and changes around them. The emerging thoughts derived from the attachments will dull their awareness. A life attuned to sensual stimulation prevents a person from experiencing the stationary tranquil Truth around us.
When it says "the mountains is closer than your skin", I mean it literally. There is no sense of distance and seperation at all, you are the mountain, not someone looking at the mountain. Everything becomes clear and vivid. There is also a blissful energy like meditative rupture in jhana arising in me when this happened.
Such experiences can happen through the practise of mindfulness, but it is not enlightenment because one doesn't realise the nature of this pure awareness and no-self. It remains a stage that can be entered and left, not as a dharma seal. -
there is nothing outside your mind. what is "outside your mind" is still your mind.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:You mean it's like the Zen parable:
It's not the wind moving nor the leave moving but your heart moving? -
Are you sure there is no mind?Originally posted by Cenarious:there is nothing outside your mind. what is "outside your mind" is still your mind. -
Did you fail primary school english?Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Are you sure there is no mind? -
when i was young doing catholicism i got the same thing cuz they told me God is everywhere and so I took reality to be God, and rest assured that eveything is God's plan so I surrendered, and many more thingsOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:Sorry when I said 'universal', I mean the 3 dharma seals are 'universal in Buddhism' (which I mentioned above). All authentic Buddhist traditions bear this 3 dharma seals. But other religions do not bear this 3 dharma seals.
Christians generally do not practise meditation, Christian kind of meditation, even though same in word, is quite different in nature. Mainstream Christian meditation literally means contemplating the words of Jesus, means thinking over the words of Jesus so that it can sink into their mind.
Hindu meditation is also quite different from Buddhist meditation. Hindu meditation is Shamatha meditation, and they do not practise Vipassana medtation. There is no practise of mindfulness in Hinduism, their practises is on focusing, concentration. This practise of focusing, concentration, can lead them to deeper level of absorptions, or mundane samadhi, and is also known to lead to the development of supernatural powers, however it is not insight-practise and does not lead to liberation.
This is just a general overview. There are some similarities in terms of experience with Christian mystics and Hindu non-dualist, but that is another topic.
oh yeah and they told me everything was created by God and God is everywhere so it made me try to be conscious of everything.
and since God knows my mind I watched my mind. -
No, I didn't...Originally posted by Cenarious:Did you fail primary school english?
Where is my mind?