Hi everyone
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Hi, my name is Jon.
I wanted to ask about the experiences I have been having for the last year. I'm interested if there is a buddhist explanation for these experiences. Please don't use buddhist terms to explain unless you also give a definition of these terms since I have very little experience with the buddhist terminology.
I am particularly attracted to posts by Thusness and would appreciate his guidance here.
The experiences I am going to speak of began about the time I came across a spiritual teaching from Eckhart Tolle. I noticed that spiritual development or the dropping of concepts and ideas accelerated greatly after coming into contact with this teaching.
These experiences involve an opening up of what I call the inner dimension which appears to be at the center of my body, of my being. There is an energy, a presence that seems to flow outward spontaneously and diffuses upward throughout my body. But I also find this energy/presence is not really separate from me, I regard is as my essence.
When this opening of the inner dimension started about a year ago, it was very painful, it felt very corrosive to my being, but this was never a problem because it always felt "right". Over time, the pain has gradually diminished, I have attributed this to a dissolving of the old egoic structures and now the energy can flow more freely and there is much less resistance when it flows.
I have always felt that this presence/energy is the prime mover of spiritual growth/development in me. The egoic identity is still present but not much of a problem anymore.
I am at a point now where this energy/presence is guiding me to turn inwards in a more significant way. I almost get the impression that this inner energy/consciousness is taking over and my life is not "mine" anymore. It belongs to "It" the pure consciousness that is arising.
I also feel that this consciousness is present at other times also but I notice it much more when it flows which happens about once a week or so.
I posted this on another forum and am pasting it here to give you an idea of where I am at:It dawned on me today that there is absolutely nothing to know with regards to Truth.
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As a matter fact, it's only when you let go of all knowing that Truth reveals Itself.
The kicker is... It was there all the time!"Knowing".
If you "know" anything, isn't that the world of form, the world of appearance?
When you "know" doesn't the ego mind reign supreme?
Is there an alternative to "knowing"?
"Being".
Where does "being" originate from?
How do you let go of "knowing" and turn towards the center of your "being".
Why does turning inward toward the "source", toward "being" feel like a death?
Are you more interested in the outer world of appearance than in the "source" of All?
Where is energy, attention being directed?
Outward?
Or inward? -
this guy is not my clone
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Hi Jon,
I understand what you are experiencing as I had these experiences too. I am not at the end of the path yet... so i can only share from my current point of view.
The presence you felt is not separated from 'you'. The pain that we felt is the egoic mind feeling threatened of losing its grip and the gradual dissolving of karmic patterns. It is better not to verify or conceptually distinguish between a 'you' and a Presence that is separated from you. When its you and when it's Presence are just 'changes of states'.
Also... there is no separate 'self' observing the mind. Some of Eckhart Tolles writing is not exactly accurate. There was not just one state but various states being described in his book.. The Power of Now...
just my opinion... for your necessary discernment. -
interesting.. What sort of different states are there in the power of now?Originally posted by longchen:Hi Jon,
I understand what you are experiencing as I had these experiences too. I am not at the end of the path yet... so i can only share from my current point of view.
The presence you felt is not separated from 'you'. The pain that we felt is the egoic mind feeling threatened of losing its grip and the gradual dissolving of karmic patterns. It is better not to verify or conceptually distinguish between a 'you' and a Presence that is separated from you. When its you and when it's Presence are just 'changes of states'.
Also... there is no separate 'self' observing the mind. Some of Eckhart Tolles writing is not exactly accurate. There was not just one state but various states being described in his book.. The Power of Now...
just my opinion... for your necessary discernment. -
I don't have the book with me now...Originally posted by An Eternal Now:interesting.. What sort of different states are there in the power of now?
But... I think he said something like this...
1. Be the witnessing Presence... watching the thinker.
This should be I AM.
2. He also described a time that he has no thoughts for long periods of time.
This is like a state of gap between thinking.
3. Eternal, ever-present one life beyond forms
Possibly another state... The wording of 'beyond' implies that he sees a separation. There shouldn't be a 'beyond'. -
Oh I seeOriginally posted by longchen:I don't have the book with me now...
But... I think he said something like this...
1. Be the witnessing Presence... watching the thinker.
This should be I AM.
2. He also described a time that he has no thoughts for long periods of time.
This is like a state of gap between thinking.
3. Eternal, ever-present one life beyond forms
Possibly another state... The wording of 'beyond' implies that he sees a separation. There shouldn't be a 'beyond'.
But anyway about a month ago I showed Thusness an interesting part of an interview with Eckhart Tolle that took place in 2000. I think he has quite gone beyond 'I AM Witness' but I am not sure. He asked me when was The Power of Now written? I told him 1997, and he replied that he's in a different stage already. And he said he won't be surprised that Eckhart Tolle will attain Pratyekabuddhahood... which in Buddhism means a solitary buddha, given that he has such experience then and many years has past. But in Buddhism there is a kind of Pratyekabuddha, in fact all Pratyekabuddhas, love solitude so much... that they will leave society into solitude. An example is Lao Tzu. Hope Eckhart doesn't leave society 
The interview: Ripples on the Surface of Being
(I think sounds very similar to something you wrote?
)ET: Even when I'm interacting with people or walking in a city, doing ordinary things, the way I perceive the world is like ripples on the surface of being. Underneath the world of sense perceptions and the world of mind activity, there is the vastness of being. There's a vast spaciousness. There's a vast stillness and there's a little ripple activity on the surface, which isn't separate, just like the ripples are not separate from the ocean.
another one thusness likes:
So there is no separation in the way I perceive it. There is no separation between being and the manifested world, between the manifested and the unmanifested. But the unmanifested is so much vaster, deeper, and greater than what happens in the manifested. Every phenomenon in the manifested is so short-lived and so fleeting that, yes, one could almost say that from the perspective of the unmanifested, which is the timeless beingness or presence, all that happens in the manifested realm really seems like a play of shadows. It seems like vapor or mist with continuously new forms arising and disappearing, arising and disappearing. So to the one who is deeply rooted in the unmanifested, the manifested could very easily be called unreal. I don't call it unreal because I see it as not separate from anything.ET: Right. It's welcoming this moment, embracing this moment, and that is the state of surrender. That is really all that's needed. The only difference between a Master and a non-Master is that the Master embraces what is, totally. When there is nonresistance to what is, there comes a peace. The portal is open; the unmanifested is there. That is the most powerful way. We can't call it practice because there's no time in it.
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edit:
oh well, i tink he wont leave so soon.ET: There's not one way that that works. Different ages have certain approaches, which may be more effective for one age and no longer effective in another age. The world that we live in now has much greater density to it; it is much more all-pervasive. And when I say "world," I include the human mind in it. The human mind has grown even since the time of the Buddha, 2,500 years ago. The human mind is more noisy and more all-pervasive, and the egos are bigger. There's been an ego growth over thousands of years; it's growing to a point of madness, with the ultimate madness having been reached in the twentieth century. One only needs to read twentieth-century history to see that it has been the climax of human madness, if it's measured in terms of human violence inflicted on other humans.
So in the present time, we can't escape from the world anymore; we can't escape from the mind. We need to enter surrender while we are in the world. That seems to be the path that is effective in the world that we live in now. It may be that at the time of the Buddha, withdrawing was much, much easier than it would be now. The human mind was not yet so overwhelming at that time. -
Thank you for your replies.
The energy flowed again this morning, strongly, by the end of the process it was quite clear to no one , that the person asking for guidance doesn't really exist. Everything is unfolding as is, there is no one doing anything, this is what was realized.
Longchen, forgive my using terms like the energy flows, as if it is separate from me , but that was the experience that was unfolding. It is clear now that the energy was flowing but there was no one to be separate from this energy. -
Hi Longchen,
It is better not to verify or conceptually distinguish between a 'you' and a Presence that is separated from you. When its you and when it's Presence are just 'changes of states'.
I don't quite understand the concepts being used here completely but I feel what you are saying is correct.
There is a strong feeling that there is nothing I can or should do with regard to discernment. Everything will unfold in it's own good time. -
Hi AnEternalNOw,
Here is my favourite ET quote:
"In my book The Power of Now, I mention ways in which you can maintain present moment awareness, but the main thing is to allow this new state of consciousness to emerge rather than believe that you have to try hard to make it happen. How do you allow it to emerge? Simply by allowing this moment to be as it is. This means to relinquish inner resistance to what is – the suchness of now. This allows life to unfold beautifully. There is no greater spiritual practice than this." -
Hi Jon,
Can you elaborate more how does this flow of energy affects you spiritualy. -
How do you know Lao Tzu is a Pratyekabuddha?Originally posted by An Eternal Now: -
Lao Tzu is a Pratyekabuddha?
Taoism self-cultivation is totally different from buddhism except their mindset.
Lao Tzu leave this world with his body when he "fei sheng"
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Hi Jon,
The Presence you experienced is the deepest essence of your being. There is nothing wrong calling it energy. The experience of tremendous Presence as manifestation of abundant life, as total vitality is not uncommon.
Any form of blockage for the free flow of this energy is due to identification. Any form of identification will result in the creation of a Witness sensing something. The Witness is a misidentification that never existed; this will be become clear as one progresses further.
The pain you suffer is due to a switch between ‘I’ and ‘Presence’ that resulted in a split. The constant switching is due to a very subtle bond that prevents you from seeing your true nature. It is like a hypnotic spell, it is not easy to break this ‘spell’. You must master the art of going beyond symbols to loosen this bond. You may want to look into insight meditation (mindfulness) for this. The purpose of going beyond symbols, labels and concepts is to experience the imageless reality and the veil that prevents us from experiencing this Presence is the layer after layers of conceptualization. The ‘key’ is to loosen the habitual propensities that bond us into seeing things with a layer symbols, it is karmic (Karmic in the sense that it is pre-conscious and sustained by the seed of attachment. It goes undetected at the conscious level). Once this bond is loosen, clarity and energy will flow more freely. Before that, division will cause pain.
When longchen said there is no observer apart from the observed, this is truth and all problems lie in not understanding this. But the experience must be direct and intuitive.
May you experience total Presence. -
AEN's Master Shen Kai, says that Lao Tzu was a Pratyekabuddha.
http://sg.search.yahoo.com/search?p=Lao+Tzu+is+Pratyekabuddha&fr=FP-tab-web-t909&toggle=1&cop=&ei=UTF-8
The famous Chinese Master of the past - Master Han Shan, also mentions of Lao Tzu being a Pratyekabuddha and a Bodhisattva.
also heard many rinpoches/lamas praised the Tao Te Ching.
xabir2005 is AEN btw.
i didn't know Great Master Han Shan also got mentioned. all i only heard was from Master Shen Kai.
i praised the Tao Te Ching too. u can see the profound begining phrase abt ignorance is the root cause. that's very advance realisation to me as mentioned in Shurangama Sutra.
http://www.chinapage.com/laotze2n.html#01
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So Lao Tzu being a Pratyekabuddha is just a point of view?
Anyway to have shariras is just the 5th of the 9 stages to be an immortal
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I mean there is a clear transition from “I AM” to the experience of No-Self. Dissolving to a background, to the Silence that is the crystal clear mirror is close, but it is not quite there. True non-duality is the experience of Anatta. There is absolutely no-one there from beginning. This is a dharma seal. As for Pratyekabuddhahood, it is beyond me to comment.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:And he said he won't be surprised that Eckhart Tolle will attain Pratyekabuddhahood...
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Yes Longchen,Originally posted by longchen:I don't have the book with me now...
But... I think he said something like this...
1. Be the witnessing Presence... watching the thinker.
This should be I AM.
2. He also described a time that he has no thoughts for long periods of time.
This is like a state of gap between thinking.
3. Eternal, ever-present one life beyond forms
Possibly another state... The wording of 'beyond' implies that he sees a separation. There shouldn't be a 'beyond'.
Very well said. There never was a gap, it can't be. It is one whole flow and nothing else. When there is one, there is two. When the one subsides, nothing isn't the one Reality.
Clear transparency of the One Reality also has its problem. An illumination into the non-duality without certain pre-requiste can cause problems. There is always habitual propensities that will again make this experience an object of attachment. It can cause a person to go without sleep as the body is incapable of dealing with this new found experience. Many have mistaken this to be a heightening of awareness and took it as a natural progression. This is not true. Whenever this happens, know that it is due to attachment. Learn how to let go of everything until a tranquil calmness arise, it has got to do with our thought patterns, there must come this willingness to let go of our body completely, then our thoughts and the experience of presence...completely letting go from moment to moment...the senses and thoughts can be shut by this art of letting go and non-attachment. Total letting go and vivid Presence must fuse into one.
Practice during the waking state till the there is no single trace of doubt that there is absolutely no one there, no inner and no outer, just the incredible realness and vividness of the manifestation. The experience of non-dual in the waking state. Witnessing dreams and there is no witness, just dreams is different. Dealing with the more subtle states and pre-conscious propensites require one to master this art of non-attachment, non-action. There is no conscious way of dealing with the more subtle states, just stabilized the experience and allow the momentum to carry us naturally into the dream and deep sleep. Sleep well. -
Bonjour & Welcome
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Hi Justdoit77,
Hi Jon,
I can use an example to explain. If I am a solid then the energy that flows is a gas, it has no structure the way I do, that's why I like the term "free flowing". This energy feels free, it is not fettered in any way. After this energy moves through me, I take on this characteristic of being freeer, unfettered, but it is not a complete freedom, it seems to be a gradual process, happening bit by bit. It almost feels like a cleansing, but that's not quite right, more of a freeing up of old structures.
Can you elaborate more how does this flow of energy affects you spiritualy.
When the energy/consciousness is flowing nothing else matters at all, it is like a nectar of the gods. I have tried on many occasions to surrender completely to this energy but somehow I have not been successful.
Hope this answers your question. -
Hi Thusness,
The Presence you experienced is the deepest essence of your being. There is nothing wrong calling it energy. The experience of tremendous Presence as manifestation of abundant life, as total vitality is not uncommon.
It cannot be that common as no one else on the discussion boards I have frequented have mentioned experiencing this. The only other person I have heard talk of this is Adyashanti, he is a spiritual teacher coming from a Buddhist background. He speaks of being "touched" repeatedly and talks about the action of the arising energy as a "roto rooter" action, of getting rid of all the old internal egoic structures.The pain you suffer is due to a switch between ‘I’ and ‘Presence’ that resulted in a split. The constant switching is due to a very subtle bond that prevents you from seeing your true nature. It is like a hypnotic spell, it is not easy to break this ‘spell’. You must master the art of going beyond symbols to loosen this bond.
I think this bond was broken momentarily after the energy arose this morning. I had the distinct impression of "seeing" clearly (of seeing things as they really are) and yes! It did feel like a hypnotic bond was broken but unfortunately the clear seeing only lasted a few moments and then the veil fell again. There was the distinct seeing that there was "no one home", that the egoic me was not there, was not real.
This veil lifted like this a year ago also when there was letting go of identification with thought, but obviously it has not lifted completely yet.You must master the art of going beyond symbols to loosen this bond. You may want to look into insight meditation (mindfulness) for this. The purpose of going beyond symbols, labels and concepts is to experience the imageless reality and the veil that prevents us from experiencing this Presence is the layer after layers of conceptualization. The ‘key’ is to loosen the habitual propensities that bond us into seeing things with a layer symbols, it is karmic (Karmic in the sense that it is pre-conscious and sustained by the seed of attachment. It goes undetected at the conscious level). Once this bond is loosen, clarity and energy will flow more freely. Before that, division will cause pain.
You are suggesting that I look into insight meditation, yet I am at a stage where I feel there is absolutely nothing I can do to help this process along, since there is no "me" that can do anything anyway. The best I can do is get out of my own way!!!
This is a quote from Eckhart Tolle that shows what I saying above:"In my book The Power of Now, I mention ways in which you can maintain present moment awareness, but the main thing is to allow this new state of consciousness to emerge rather than believe that you have to try hard to make it happen. How do you allow it to emerge? Simply by allowing this moment to be as it is. This means to relinquish inner resistance to what is – the suchness of now. This allows life to unfold beautifully. There is no greater spiritual practice than this."
I also feel strongly that the impetus for spiritual growth is coming from within, from this energy/presence. "I" am totally helpless and as a matter of fact, "I" am the problem!
However, if you see or sense anything that may be beneficial, I would appreciate your feedback.When longchen said there is no observer apart from the observed, this is truth and all problems lie in not understanding this. But the experience must be direct and intuitive.
I agree 100% here!
Thank you for your reply. -
Bonjour alexkusu,
Je suis canadien et je parle francais aussi.
Qui est ton petit chou? -
Longchen,
You mentioned you have had similar experiences to mine in the past, could you please elaborate. Have those experiences stopped?Also... there is no separate 'self' observing the mind. Some of Eckhart Tolles writing is not exactly accurate. There was not just one state but various states being described in his book.. The Power of Now...
I agree with what you say here but there is one thing I would like to mention. Eckhart speaks of meeting people in the noise and guiding them into the silence, perhaps his descriptions were meant for people just starting out on the path.
just my opinion... for your necessary discernment. -
I see... Thanks so much again, Thusness.Originally posted by Thusness:Yes Longchen,
Very well said. There never was a gap, it can't be. It is one whole flow and nothing else. When there is one, there is two. When the one subsides, nothing isn't the one Reality.
Clear transparency of the One Reality also has its problem. An illumination into the non-duality without certain pre-requiste can cause problems. There is always habitual propensities that will again make this experience an object of attachment. It can cause a person to go without sleep as the body is incapable of dealing with this new found experience. Many have mistaken this to be a heightening of awareness and took it as a natural progression. This is not true. Whenever this happens, know that it is due to attachment. Learn how to let go of everything until a tranquil calmness arise, it has got to do with our thought patterns, there must come this willingness to let go of our body completely, then our thoughts and the experience of presence...completely letting go from moment to moment...the senses and thoughts can be shut by this art of letting go and non-attachment. Total letting go and vivid Presence must fuse into one.
Practice during the waking state till the there is no single trace of doubt that there is absolutely no one there, no inner and no outer, just the incredible realness and vividness of the manifestation. The experience of non-dual in the waking state. Witnessing dreams and there is no witness, just dreams is different. Dealing with the more subtle states and pre-conscious propensites require one to master this art of non-attachment, non-action. There is no conscious way of dealing with the more subtle states, just stabilized the experience and allow the momentum to carry us naturally into the dream and deep sleep. Sleep well.
Am in the process of learning to let go... even of all the experiences... for there is really no higher or lower states -
Hi Jon,Originally posted by JonLS:Longchen,
You mentioned you have had similar experiences to mine in the past, could you please elaborate. Have those experiences stopped?
I will reply u later... I am rushing off to do some work now... -
i can feel no self best right after i wake up from a sleep